SB Nation Seattle Editor's Pick
Expansion Draft: Who would you protect? (AKA the Fucito Question)
by reesebw on Oct 13, 2010 1:40 PM PDT
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PrintBumped to the FrontPage as it seems every week there is more and more expansion draft talk. Trust me, we'll hit you with a ton, but let's start the discussion now.
Anytime Fucito plays well, which apparently is just about every time he graces the pitch commenters on the interwebs express their fears and woes of him getting stolen in the expansion draft. I reckon it has something to do with the fresh wound that is Le Toux's success at Philadelphia this season, but he is undeniably leaving a mark in the hearts of Sounders fans. If you had it your way who would you protect for the expansion draft? Does the unique draft rules of having 2 teams picking players make a big difference? And aren't you dying to know my opinion?
What's Different About This Expansion Draft
This draft will be somewhat unique from my understanding. Before it was simple: existing clubs protect 11 players from their roster, the expansion club writes up a well planned list of 11 available players they want (no more than one from any team of course), and BAM! you have 11 roster slots filled. This year is different with two teams taking part in the draft. Not only does that mean a club can lose 2 players this year, is also means an expansion team no longer gets the advantage of picking the 11 players that best complement each other right off he bat. Instead they take turns and hope the other doesn't foil their individual plans. Not only can an expansion team miss out on a player they might want by the other selecting him first, but once a player gets selected from a team the team that lost the player gets to protect an additional player if I'm not mistaken. If Portland decides to shop at Seattle first then Vancouver loses not one, but two available players to select from. Not only do we get the benefit of picking a second player based on value to the team, but we will also get to see what positions have been filled already on both Portland and Vancouver's roster up to the point we are chosen. We can see what their roster looks like and say "Hey, Portland took Fucito, Vancouver has 2 CM's already and no defenders, let's protect Riley instead of Evans." I am sure there is some rational choice model to compare this to, but turning the Expansion Draft into a game with multiple players this year might work to our advantage and change how we protect our players.
My Picks
Fucito has been an issue amongst fans and whether or not he is worth a protected slot. A month or two ago I'd say let him go unprotected. He hasn't had much time to prove he is a good consistent player and because he is basically in his Freshman season why would Portland and Vancouver take him when they are getting early Super Draft picks from current college students? For me the issue would be protecting him over Nyassi and I look at Nyassi as a much more proven threat. Or at least that was the case a month ago. My tune is starting to change on that and Fucito is someone I'd probably want to protect.
The other issue I am unclear about is Kasey Keller. Do we need to protect him? If memory serves me right his contract expires at the end of the season. Aside from being old and close to retirement, a big part of the reason why he is playing in Seattle is because he is from the area and wants to finish out his career at home. If this is the case do we need to protect him when he can send a clear message that he'll opt to not renew his contract and retire if Vancouver or Portland try to pick him up? I don't think Portland would be petty enough simply hate draft him so he can't play for us and not gain a player that can fill a roster slot or be traded. If I am wrong please correct me.
Taking things into account here's the 11 I protect and a brief explanation of why:
1. Hurtado (one of the best CB in MLS)
2. Ianni (High quality back up, can be 3rd CB in 5-3-2, and in a pinch a CDM)
3. Parke (Second best CB on the team)
4. Alonso (The rock upon which we stand)
5. Fernandez (Clearly is talented. Can play RM or CM)
6. Montero (League MVP and worst case scenario we can sell him for tons of cash)
7. Nkufo (We win when he plays)
8. Zakuani (Gets better and better and we love our speedy flanks)
9. Gonzalez (Solid LB)
10. Fucito (Growing star? And what if we can't keep Montero?)
11. Jaqua (USOC player of the tournament IMHO. You want him for USOC, CCL, and when Nkufo gets tired/injured)
So who does that leave unprotected that is obvious? Riley, Sturgis, Evans, Nyassi
The way I see it Alonso is the rock in center mid and Flaco will also be able to play in that spot. Why protect Evans and Sturgis? If one gets stolen just protect the other and we'll have 3 solid CMs with Seamon still an option and Vagenas if you wish. I would be nervous about leaving Riley open, but I am thinking Sturgis and Evans are more attractive than Riley. However if Riley gets stolen I'd rather be shopping for RB than a CM. Plus we could always try that Bradley experiment again and plug Evans in at RB.
However the really glaring pick is Nyassi. Why I left him exposed? Well there's that distant hopeful belief that because he played 5 games for the USL Sounders Portland's hubris won't take him. But the reality is I have faith in Flaco. He won't be a speedy winger, but I think he'll have quality on the wing if we need. Also I am putting a little bit of faith in our youngsters. Perhaps Fucito can play out on the right and add some speed. The other option is Miguel Montano who is still pretty young. It would be nice to play with two inverted wingers who can swap sides to provide better crosses with their strong foot. And the reality is Nyassi, up until this month hasn't really impressed me. Yes, it works having him on the right, but I don't think he is nearly as strong or consistent as our other attackers, his skill isn't too far ahead of subs and reserves in my opinion, and, if this season taught us one thing, protect the spine of your team with a little bit of depth.
Who would you protect and, more importantly, expose?
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I agree with all of your picks, but....
I think Sturgis is a big part of our turn around and would like to see him protected, but we have so many good players that its hard to see who should be dropped for him. Hate to say it but Fucito might be who i drop but Man thats tough. I would hate to see him go.
Whoa! Missed that you didn't protect Keller.
We have to protect Keller. We have no backup.
Jaqua
He’s pretty pricey, and also a bit redundant with Nkufo. While I like seeing the two big guys play together, I see Jaqua as expendable.
i ALMOST agree...
i would certainly swap Nyassi for Jaqua based mostly on the fact that Jaqua eats much to much of our cap for what he contributes to the team (i might change my mind if they could renegotiate his contract or something)
also… i think i would feel much safer protecting Keller as well and assuming Portland takes the bait if we leave him exposed (Jaqua) then use the remaining spot on Leo.
when it all comes down to it the outside backs are more easily replaced
Is there a trade window available prior to the expansion draft?
If it comes down to protecting one of either Nyassi or Fucito don’t you have to trade one of them away and grab an allocation spot or draft pick in return? Risk of losing either of them for nothing seems unpleasant.
I would protect Montano over Jaqua personally
I’d rather spend Jaqua’s slot on Montano. I know Sigi has avoided playing him, but I think that kid has talent.
Right now Nyassi might be hotter, but I think in the long run Montano has a higher ceiling. Combine that with how young Montano is and you have a fantastic developmental chip for the future.
As far as Keller goes, I have a question: would anything prevent Keller from simply retiring, then resigning before the season starts? I don’t really understand how MLS rules work, but I assume that Portland or Vancouver would have a decent shot at his rights in that case?
They would have Keller's rights in that case, I'm pretty sure,
and we’d have to trade to get him back. That is if they would trade. They could refuse and just keep him off the board, if I understand MLS right (he’d go into the allocation draft, sure, but after a season sitting out at his age, would he get back in?)
Think this is how it would work
If i’m understanding the rules correctly, Keller could refuse to sign with whoever drafted him, but then he’d be put back into an allocation draft. In any case, it would be pretty hard for the sounders to reacquire him without making a trade.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
But what is the status of his contract and when does it have to be renewed?
Out of contract players, especially when near a retiring age, what is the incentive to pick them when their contract could expire and they could simply retire? Isn’t the question really about whether or not Keller would renew his contract with MLS if another team had his rights? Knowing he could retire Keller has to have very low value when there’s no guarantee he will take the pitch and can’t be traded. Would a team pick him knowing that with the other options available? And how are their current USL keepers?
-Ben R.
I really don't have a feel for the Portland FO
but just for publicity’s sake, I could see them taking Keller even if they don’t ever sign him (either trading him back to us or just keeping him off the field for a season). It would be an absolute coup that they could hold over the Sounders and talk up forever. As much as I don’t think they’re that douchy, I don’t actually know for sure and I just don’t think the cost-benefit analysis works out. I mean, we’re going to lose someone regardless. We can’t protect every good player on the team. The benefit of dangling Keller out there is decent, but not overwhelming. The cost of losing him would be enormous. The math just doesn’t add up IMO.
Look at the cost
If Portland takes Keller, only to have him retire. What does that get them? First, they don’t get a quality player for their team. Taking someone other than Keller would help build their squad. Second. The FO of Portland is not the Timbers Army. They are not there to piss off the Sounders. This is an ownership and front office that will have to do business in the future, with the Seattle franchise. Not very smart to creat ill will so early in the game. Third. Can they pick him and trade him back? Are you kidding? Would KASEY KELLER really allow himself to be played around like a pawn? No way! Unless Portland is willing to give up a potential 12 or 14 best player in our organization, for spite. Keller is safe. The Sounders can protect Nyassi and Fucito.
There is recent precedent... Onstad was not protected last year...
Essentially the exact same circumstance. Keeper who has maybe one or two years left (who was coming off a great year) apparently sends a pretty clear message that he will retire if Philly picks him…
Having Portland in the mix does make it a bit dicey. I wonder whether Kasey might actually be willing to do the long commute for a couple of years. I think he wants to play. I suspect he would be annoyed if the sounders did not protect him…
I hope the FO can forge a deal with him – we won’t protect you, you be clear you’ll retire if picked. If they call the bluff then we are ready to pay more than we would have otherwise (e.g.trade fucito, gasp, and some money or some such).
BTW I bet Adrian already has a solid line to brad friedel…
by Kevin Shields on Oct 14, 2010 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Tally Hall
You can’t forget about the quality backup Houston had in place. Hall, as we saw in the Open Cup last year, is a very good backup. I don’t have the same confidence in Boss, sadly.
Good picks
except I think the Keller thing is too much of a gamble. Not only could I see Portland taking him (his college soccer was played at UP so there’s some connection), but the consequences of erring in that gamble just aren’t worth the payoff IMO. I think you have to gamble with someone else and I’d do it with one of the CBs (we do have 3 high quality ones and a good backup in Graham).
I think leaving Keller off is a good gamble
I described below a bit…but based on his salary and the large amount of quality keepers floating around, I doubt he’s taken. Not to mention Nolly/Cronin being very capable in their own right and moving up with the team.
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 13, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
My 11
1. Montero
2. Nkufo
3. Zak
4. Alonso
To me, these are the core of our team. With these four, if we build effectively around them, we’ll be a threat for years to come (well, as long as Nkufo is healthy and playing).
5. Fernandez
6. Hurtado
7. Parke
8. Riley
9. Gonzalez
10. Fucito
11. Keller
I protect Fucito over Nyassi or Jaqua and hope that Portland or Vancouver takes the bait on one of them (allowing us to protect the other or, if the cards have fallen right, protect Ianni). Ianni is fantastic, but Keller is the captain of our defense and a big reason they all work so well together. He’s a capable backup, and a solid CB (as we’ve seen this season), but Hurtado is better and I’m just not willing to risk Keller.
Here’s the deal, if Keller doesn’t come right out and SAY he’ll retire, there’s nothing stoping another team from taking him. If they do, even if he retires, we’re without a capable starting keeper. That’s bad. Really bad. I like Boss, but I don’t want him as our starter. We need to draft a capable, high upside young keeper so that we can afford to risk Keller NEXT year with Montreal. But this year? Portland might just take Keller, and Portland is close enough that Keller might just go play for them.
And that would sting for so many years I don’t even want to think about it.
Anywho, my two cents.
My 11
Parke, Ianni, Hurtado, Riley, Evans, Alonso, Fernandez, Montero, Zakuani, Nkufo, Fucito.
My reasonings:
First, on not protecting Keller: Nolly and Cronin will move up with the teams. Keller is an expensive piece of goalkeeper. There are equally good keepers out there who will be unprotected and cost half of his salary. And he’s old.
Parke, Ianni, Hurtado, Riley: All four are among the best in the league. Riley trails the other three in skill at his position, but is still among the best RBs. Gonzalez is replaceable. He is slow and gets burned every game, badly. He is still better than Wahl, but I think we could find better.
Fernandez, Evans, Alonso: It kills me to say Evans over Sturgis. But as good as I believe Sturgis is, I think Evans will be at or a little above that level.
Montero, Zakuani, Nkufo, Fucito: Kills me also to not protect Jaqua, and I definitely see Portland taking him given his hometown is Eugene. But as long as Fucito stays healthy, we can keep him a long time. I hate hate hate to not protect Jaqua, especially with Nkufo only being around another year, but given Fucito’s performance I don’t think we can part with him.
Likely steals I foresee based on my 11: Sturgis, Jaqua, Seamon, Montano, Nyassi
Leo
Glad to see someone else pinpoint Leo as possibly not worth protecting.
As you pointed out, he’s shown a lot of vulnerability to being turned easily and often. And I’m not sure he fits in well with Sigi’s system anymore. Riley has become an important source of crosses and getting plays started. I haven’t seen that – or at least noticed that – with respect to Gonzalez.
Does Wahl play LB? He may not be a significant downgrade if so and if Gonzalez were left unprotected and taken.
by Stephen Nesbitt on Oct 14, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't mean to sound like I'm dogging Riley
I think he’s good. But he defintiely has some issues shutting people down. He’s also kinda foul prone.
Regarding Wahl…I don’t think he’s that bad at all, although he has certainly had some bad games. He’s more hot and cold I would say. I think if he gets consistent, solid playing time he’d be able to shake off any rust and be a contributor. I believe he was a pretty frequently used player for KC Wiz before we picked him up in the draft. The one thing Gonzalez does well is he gets forward and helps on the attack, as does Riley. I think Wahl usually is a bit more conservative, but in the times he has played, he gets up and has a couple of assists as a result.
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 14, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Wahl has a wicked long ball
And a good cross, IMHO. He’s frat from an offensive non-factor. In the Open Cup game I think his biggest issue was going to far up in the attack and leaving the left flank exposed.
by Dizzo on Oct 14, 2010 1:13 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
*far not frat...damn iPhone auto-correct
by Dizzo on Oct 14, 2010 1:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes - crosses and long ball are quality
I don’t think he’s a non-factor, I think Gonzalez maybe has a sharper awareness offensively though. It’s the defensive part of Gonzo that I dislike. For Wahl, I feel like he might be more rounded than Gonzalez, but lower/higher skill in areas.
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 14, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Man, these are tough choices
Here’s my 11 for what it is worth:
1. Alonso
2. Montero
3. Fernandez
4. Nkufo
5. Hurtado
6. Ianni
7. Parke
8. Zakuani
9. Nyassi
10. Fucito
11. Keller
At this point I think it makes sense to protect some of our young talent. I also protected Keller because I don’t think it makes sense to play chicken with our team captain. I’d hate to see the messy fallout if either Portland or Keller call that bluff.
I hate to leave Leo and Riley exposed, but I think we can find replacements if necessary.
by Dizzo on Oct 13, 2010 3:16 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Leo definitely
Another Riley-quality guy would be tough to find.
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 13, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
yea
that’s pretty much what i have for my protected list.
I'll take a shot here
Untouchables
1. Montero
2. Alonso
3. Fernandez
4. Nkufo
5. Hurtado
6. Zakuani
7. Gonzalez
8. Keller
Leaving Keller in because my basis for the protection is this: You want to lose players who will hurt your team the least in the future. Losing Kasey would be like a stomach punch to the fanbase and potentially help Portland or Vancouver. Plus it would suck to see him in on one of those clubs. If anyone would take him it would be Portland.
Borderline untouchable
9. Parke – highly underrated CB, the only reason he’s not in the above group is we’d have JKH back next season.
Borderline in
10. Evans – Good midfielder, insurance for if you lose Sturgis
11. Nyassi – Can’t deny the team has played well with him on the wing, scoring starting to come around, even though we have better options. Mainly I’d hate to see him score on us for the Timbers or Whitecaps.
If Keller can be unprotected
12. Montano – I’m think Kasey may be left off the list in part because one really doesn’t want to build a franchise around a 41 year old keeper. In which case I don’t want to lose a young talent like Miguel. He’d be an easy selection for an expansion team looking to build for tomorrow.
Borderline out
13. Riley – could easily swap him with Montano; really starting to hit his stride until the injury this year
14. Ianni – Might get panned for this, but with Hurtado back I think he could be expendable
15. Fucito – We can afford to lose our Eckstein if we have too… I hope we don’t, though.
16. Jaqua – Would suck, but at least we have Blaise now.
17. Sturgis – I’d rather see Evans or even El Flaco in his role; we must surely have someone else who can do corners.
Still, I trust the team would know what to do best with the 11 protected players. Evans and Parke are the two ‘maybe’ guys I’d be most upset about leaving.
Writer: CougCenter Twitterer: @GradyClapp
corner taker
Fucito is a great corner taker… his low driven balls regularly bend right into the sweet spot. One of the most exciting parts of his game frankly.
I disagree
about leaving Keller unprotected. I don’t think its worth the risk. I would agree with leaving keller unprotected if we had a future starting GK in place but we don’t. Not to say Boss is a bad GK but i think he’s more of a backup rather than long term starter.
Nyassi
There is no way I would let Nyassi go, I would rather let Jaqua or Fucito go. The speed we have on the wings with Zakuani and Nyassi is impossible for most teams to stop.
Keller is more valuable than Jaqua at this stage in the Sounders evolution...
Having said that, my choice then comes down to Fucito or Nyassi. (I love the potential upside of Montano, but he showed last nite that he is still a couple years away from becoming a solid starter or future star). You can debate the relative merits of Fucito and Nyassi and make a great case for each, but overall I think that Nyassi provides the team with better balance. Fucito is certainly exciting to watch but has only really been tested against reserve level competition thus far. (Kansas the exception).
I expose Parke initially as we have relative depth there as oposed to o/s backs. I probably place a higher value on the o/s backs because its the area on th e field that everyone tries to attack 1v1 (its harder to get out to provide cover) It still makes me smile when I recall Zak abusing Hejduk over and over and ver again :),:)
I then protect Fucito at first oppotunity provded he isn’t plucked first. Then possibly Parke/Evans/Sturgis/Montano depending on how each club starts to delevop its roster.
Protected list (not in order)
1. Alonso
2. Montero
3. Nkufo
4. Fernandez
5. Zakuani
6. Hurtado
7. Keller
8. Leo
9. Nyassi
10. Ianni
11. Riley
Protect Fucito next followed by Parke
"Kia Kaha" -be strong
I disagree
about leaving Parke unprotected picture hurtado and parke on the back line.
I agree with you
except for the age factor. Ianni is, what, 24ish? Parke is close to 30? Parke still has a few good years, no question, but Ianni might have a good decade.
Montano
I dont think any team can take him anyway.
he is on loan from universidad de chile so the worry there is that he can be pulled back from loan.
i wish he got more playing time!
As far as I know
He’s neither on loan nor the property of universidad de chile. According to Hanauer, the Sounders have no players that are automatically protected from the draft.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
And players on loan in MLS are loaned to the LEAGUE
not a TEAM. MLS holds the contracts on every player.
Even if he was on loan he could still be picked.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Picture Ianni and Hurtado on the back line...
I Question Parke’s Decision making/concentration… silly penalties, not signing, PED’s etc
"Kia Kaha" -be strong
As opposed to getting into petty feuds with opposing players, say? Ianni’s beans have been much more deserved this year than last, granted, but if it had to be a choice between the two I think I’d still go for Parke. He’s been pretty much solid since the Colorado game, and I haven’t seen him make any decisions I wouldn’t expect of other defenders in the same position.
Quite apart from which, holding the drugs incident over his head in perpetuity is kinda lame.
Hurtado gave up the PK against Columbus last season that Schelotto thankfully missed
Hurtado is not without his faults for silly fouls.
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 14, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
And as much as I love JKH
He’s also mostly responsible for the first PK against Dallas.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 14, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe Parke’s given up three PKs this season? One was a handball call against the Fire that was debatable to say the least, and another was a tackle against RSL that he admitted was rash but which you can’t really blame him for making given the situation. I can’t remember the third one off-hand, but the reality is that it doesn’t matter how good a defender is, you’re going to give up PKs at some point; and by way of partial mitigation, I think it’s worth pointing that ultimately neither of these PKs cost us any points.
I've got a list
but I’m not going to discuss it now, because the conversation basically involves calling out guys on our roster for being expendable (like calling our Captain ‘old’ and highlighting everyone else’s flaws) when we still have the rest of the season and the playoffs to go. There’ll be plenty of time after the season to talk about who’s expendable when they aren’t out killing themselves on the field to keep our playoff run going.
Nos Audietis
by sidereal on Oct 13, 2010 4:22 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
My list.
I agree with sidereal that any list at this point is probably a futile effort, but hey, it’s fun.
My Current 11 –
1. Montero (23)
2. Alonso (24)
3. Zakuani (22)
4. Fernandez (25)
5. Nkufo (35)
6. Hurtado (26)
7. Ianni (25)
8. Nyassi (21)
9. Parke (28)
For me the last two spots came down to the fact that of the remaining players several match-up as essentially fungible – allowing me to leave them both protected and if one goes I can pull back the other:
Sturgis (23) vs. Evans (25) battling out for the third CM spot
Jaqua (28) vs. Fucito (24) battling it out for the back-up striker role, and
Gonzalez (29) vs. Riley (27) for the 4th defender spot.
So, for my last two spots I choose
10. Keller (40)
11. Montano (19)
not
worth protecting montano since he’s on a loan and that could be pulled.
There is a big difference between is he worth being protected and will he be protected
Fucito has definitely shown that he is worth protection, but I mean we are debating between 5-10 people for the last 3 spots. No matter what great talent is going to be lost (unless for some reason they pass us over). Whether he is going to be protected is a different question entirely.
For me these guys are locks:
1. Parke
2. Ianni
3. Hurtado
4. Zakuani
5. Fernandez
6. Alonso
7. Nkufo
8. Montero
For the final 3 spots there is just too many worthy players to choose from (Borderline)
(numbers below do not indicate inclusion for protection)
9. Gonzalez
10. Riley
11. Keller
12. Nyassi
13. Montano
14. Fucito
15. Sturgis
16. Jaqua
17. Evans
definitely unprotected
18. Boss
19. Graham
20. Levesque
21. Marshall
22. Noonan
23. Estrada
24. Seamon
25. Vagenas
26. Wahl
I think you have to protect Keller
It’s a lot riskier for us to leave him unprotected than it is for someone else to take him with one of their bazillion expansion picks. It leaves the door open for too many unpalatable results. Keller came to MLS to play with the Sounders—he essentially did us a favor. And if he wants to play next year, and he only wants to play in Seattle, I say you have to return the favor and protect him to make 100% certain that he is able to play next year.
I think it’s difficult to understand the negative karma you would generative from forcing Keller into a situation where he had to move his family against his will or end his career before he wanted to end it.
This is a good point, and I think it's a terrifying scenario to consider.
But I think the post below raises a great point. Both the caps and the scum have keepers that they like a lot in Nolly and Cronin. I doubt either would waste a pick on a pick for goalkeeping depth that may or may not even pan out. Picking Keller out of spite would be remarkably stupid given all the talent on the Seattle roster that they’d have to pass up.
Also remember that Adrian may or may not have Marcus Hahneman waiting in the wings.
The Hahneman thing is really based on one comment Hahneman made once
and the fact he’s from around here. That’s it. Not something I’d count on, especially with the logistics of how we’d have to potentially acquire him.
It's not just who's expendable to us
It’s also who’s desirable to Portland and Vancouver. It seems like it would be hard for us to replace Riley, but then again, no one might want him just like last year. I generally would assume the FO would start with the current starting 11 (Nyassi and Ianni to be replaced by Fernandez and Hurtado) and then figure out which players portland and vancouver wouldn’t take, that might let us protect some other players like Ianni or Fucito.
I'm not that worried about protecting Leo
He’s solid, but a lot of his game seems to already be very tactical, and not too athletic—as time goes on, I worry that he’ll become a liability against faster wings, sort of like Hejduk has become a liability for Columbus against us.
I also don’t see him being an especially desirable target in the expansion draft, as he doesn’t have especially extensive MLS experience or boundless potential.
protect the youth...it's the best for the long term
We have one of the best FOs for scouring the globe for talent. They keep finding players who then become integral to our team…so I trust them to find others should be lose somebody great.
The 3 players that almost everybody has listed as keepers that I disagree with our below:
I know we haven’t lost with N’Kufo in the lineup, but the guy is 35 years old. I can’t imagine either Portland or Vancouver wasting a valuable pick on a guy who isn’t going to be with them for a while. Plus he comes with a hefty salary. And if he went to Vancouver….good for him as I think his family is living there now (I remember reading this somewhere). Plus I trust our FO to go and get a much younger version now that they’ve seen the light with a strong, talented target man.
I think the same with Keller. Too old and too expensive for an expansion team, but if they want to shell out that much for Keller who is now 2 years older, I’m fine with it. We can always get Marcus Hahnemann to replace….and who knows maybe freeing up more money and going with a slightly lesser keeper may not be as disastrous as we think. I love the guy and he is integral to our defense but worth the risk.
Leo will be 30 years old. Again he’s good…maybe close to great in MLS but I think for his age and too be honest lack of speed, I’m okay if he isn’t protected. He might be taken but again, we can always find a faster, younger version…and maybe one that doesn’t chew up an international spot.
I also would throw Jaqua in the expendable list as he will be 29 at end of season.
I would definitely prioritize the youth of Nyassi, Sturgis, Montano and Fucito…over the older players. We need depth for all the US Open Cup, Champions League and getting younger and better is always a good thing.
Granted it would be great to keep around some of the experienced players as they are great at bringing along the youth…eg. N’Kufo and Nyassi (I remember reading something that N’Kufo has been helping Nyassi…seems to have worked if true). And at most we can only lose 2.
http://web.me.com/lienc/Site/Sounders_Talk/Sounders_Talk.html
Hahneman...
we can’t just “get” Marcus hahnemann, because he is a capped US International, if he decided to return to the US he would go into an allocation draft. Which means Portland and Vancouver would have the first shot at him. Unless we traded to get their top spot in the allocation order or have a pre-arranged trade like RSL? did with Luis Gil.
The Rapids already own his rights IIRC
and we’d either have to trade for them or pick them up in the reallocation draft, if his rights get thrown in there (no clue if they will or how that whole process works exactly).
Its
been 11 years since he has played in MLS so i doubt colorado would still own his rights.
Pretty sure there's no expiration on his rights
Even if there is, he would still go through the allocation draft.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Truth.
One of the things that the players were fighting for in the the new CBA and didn’t get. A team holds a players rights permanently, unless player is “sold” or traded. Doesn’t this also apply to players who play out their contracts? THe team still owns the rights?
The one tweak in the CBA
Allowed for players who can’t come to terms with their old team be put into some kind of allocation draft.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions
would that have applied to Parke
had he not signed with us this year? we had his rights from the expansion draft, but had yet to sign him to a contract right?
I'm guessing that if we hadn't been able to sign him this year, he would have been put into allocation
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
lucky for us...
he got his act together just in time for Hurtado to go down. I don’t think I could have made it through an entire season of Marshall.
then how is it we "got" Keller?
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
by malcontentjake on Oct 13, 2010 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
just a thought...
what would happen if a USL team attempted to sign a returning international before the jump to MLS. Would that player still have to be entered into the allocation pool before the team signed him to the MLS squad?
This actually almost happened with the Whitecaps
And MLS said they would force that player through allocation
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions
While I want Nkufo to stay A LOT
I could see that. As much as I’d like to see him on the pitch for the Sounders another year or two, I wouldn’t begrudge him a chance to live with his family in Vancouver if they don’t/can’t move down to Seattle. The chances that the FO has a ‘younger Nkufo’ waiting in the wings just doesn’t seem realistic. Any younger player with a skill-set similar to Nkufo’s is likely to be playing in Europe somewhere and not necessarily amenable to coming to MLS.
I do get your point of emphasizing youth, though, and I generally agree. I think the FO is making a point of it, too, with them bringing in Fernandez, trying to lock up Montero longer-term, etc (they’ve even said as much in so many words IIRC).
You have to protect DPs
I believe the rules state that Designated Players have to be protected.
I don’t think leaving Nkufo, Fernandez and likely soon to be DP Montero unprotected is an option.
If
DPs have a do not trade clause then you have to protect them.
none of our DPs have no-trade clauses
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 13, 2010 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
i should
have mention in general. I wasn’t specifically talking about our DPs. I mean DPs in general.
Nyassi...
I don’t say this to minimize Nyassi’s contributions over the last few weeks, but I think he is one we can leave unprotected because we have a glut of RM and he is only just starting to pull ahead of the rest. I think he is the easiest to replace from players already on our roster.
i agree
I think leaving him unprotected makes sense.
we have fernandez who can be RM and then montano as back up
And Evans
I believe Evans played on the wing for us a bit earlier in the year before his injury. I thought he did a decent job of it. That’s one of the things I like most about Evans…he’s so damn versatile.
why protect 3 CB's?!!?
didn’t understand it last year and wouldn’t this year.
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
Ianni
would been the future starting CB once marshall decides to retire. It was important to protect him. Ianni and Parke are doing to well together then there’s hurtado one of the best CB imo. You can’t just leave any of them unprotected.
Last year made little sense
Marshall being protected was the biggest surprise.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Yeah, it was surprising as he is borh relatively old and high paid
Although it probably did not make a difference. I think if Marshall would have been left unprotected, Riley would have been protected and Seba still goes to Philadelphia.
yea
unless le toux was protected instead of Marshall we would still had lost him anyways.
hurtado
would any team take him?? he has been out a year and no one knows if he will play the way he used to.
He'd go in a second if we don't protect him
The expansion draft, like the superdraft, isn’t about sure things. It’s about trying to get value and often taking some risks to do it. With how good Hurtado is, I think he’d be gone pretty quick if we leave him unprotected.
Depending on need, etc, of course
If a team is stocked with defenders already, he might be safe.
No, when healthy, he is in the top 2 or 3 defenders in the league.
If a team is stocked with defenders, you take Hurtado and trade another one.
Value...
this is why we took a huge risk on Parke. He was coming off of a long suspension for performance enhancing drugs, had said he didn’t even want to play in MLS, but we selected him anyways on the off chance that he got his act together. It took a year, but good for us!
By far my biggest beef with the expansion draft...
Is that it happens too fast after the season is over. MLS should give us a few weeks after the season jsut to thrash on this amongst ourselves! It’d be good for SAH advertising!!! ;-)
Did you at all take into account salary in this?
I wonder if leaving NFuko unprotected isn’t as crazy as it sounds… I kinda wonder whether Portland would want to spend all that money on him… I certainly want to keep him but we may be able to keep him without protecting him…
By the way, here is Climbing the Ladders take about players protected
http://usasoccer.blogspot.com/2010/08/2010-mls-expansion-draft-preview.html
Protected
Osvaldo Alonso
Brad Evans
Alvaro Fernandez
Leo Gonzalez
Jhon Kennedy Hurtado
Patrick Ianni
Nate Jaqua
Fredy Montero
Blaise Nkufo
Jeff Parke
Steve Zakuani
that was from august...
id like to see them do an update to see if anything has changed
My $.02
Core Players, The young nucleus this team is built on
1 Montero
2 Alonso
3 Hurtado
4 Zakuani
5 Fernandez
Prepeak talent, these are players just about ready to break out
6 Ianni
7 Nyassi
Peak Talent, are in their best years and are veterans
8 Jaqua
9 Parke
10 Gonzalez
Post Peak, still have gas in the tank and are good leaders for the kids
11 NKufo
I leave Keller off because PDX has 2 keepers in Cronin and Brown and even if he retires/gets picked keeper is easily the deepest position in the MLS. Both Hartman and Busch were available at the start of this season…
Fucito I left off because hes at a developmental spot now and if picked will become a full senior and will get a raise in the process and as well as hes played lately he hasn’t played enough to warrant a senior spot yet imho.
There are no longer developmental slots per the new CBA
There are now called Protected spots and are paid the Senior roster minimum. It is notable that Montano makes 8$ more than this rate.
This year that number is 40k$. Which means that these guys doubled their salary in the new CBA.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Ahh finally
Someone sees why we can leave Keller and be safe.
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 14, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Crazy thought on Nkufo
Could we leave him unprotected? I don’t think its a good idea but i’ll run with this.
He is older. Probably will only play a few more years. He is expensive. Why would a new team that can pick basically any DP they want pick up an aging player with a high salary? If Vancouver or Portland want a DP they can just go find one on the open market. Why would they waste the DP spot and the draft pick on one of ours, which would allow us to easily give Montero a DP spot, locking him up long term.
Just a thought i had late last night.
I do not think it is crazy...
As someone else posted, it is not about who is expendable or who you want to keep, it is about minimizing damage hay may come throughout the draft.
One way to think about this is would you be willing to give up one player if you knew it meant you could protect another (which is what will happen).
I wonder whether what the sounders want to do is play this such that they only lose one player. E.g. Choose they players who are more likely to be taken later in the draft… By then you will know what the two teams have already picked before you protect your one additional.
by Kevin Shields on Oct 14, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Just to add some intrigue
With Blaise’s family in Vancouver, it’s long been rumored that his intention all along was to play there. The theory goes, maybe there was some kind of handshake agreement when the Sounders signed him that they’d allow him to move if the opportunity arose.
Now, this is all wild speculation. I have never heard even a whisper that would add real heft to this. But, it does have a shred of sensical thinking. Point being, it would not be the craziest thing if Nkufo was left unprotected.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 14, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions
The Caps don't have a good target man
Despite all the players they’ve brought in…they haven’t picked up a real target man. All their young forward prospects are smaller, speedier types AFAIK.
I was just thinking along those lines...
Imagine this FO conversation…
“let’s go get this Blaise guy. He will be great for us this year and by getting him we have acquired great expansion draft insurance. Vancouver will take him… What a deal, we get one of maybe two last good years he has, and we get to “buy” an extra two slots to protect (his + the one after we get back"
To put it another way would you not have been tickled to sign the guy for only one year with a “extra slot protected” for next year? I think I would have taken that in a heartbeat.
by Kevin Shields on Oct 14, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Trouble
is if seattle leaves blaise unprotected and Vancouver takes him, seattle would lose his ball handling skill and loose a player that can finish. I don’t see anyone on the team that can reproduce N’kufo ball handling skill. And it would be crazy to protect Jaqua instead of N’kufo.
Seattle
has done so well with him on the team i just don’t see it worth loosing him.
He's 35
I agree we don’t want to lose him as a 35 year old. But he wont be 35 next year. What we are getting from him this year – I mean at MAX you have to figure 1.5 more years b4 he starts really breaking down and plausibly this is really it. Look I love the guy but he isn’t a statue (well he is but you know what I mean…) he won’t keep going like this much longer.
We protected Tyrone Marshall last year apparently thinking we could still get a few more years out of him – I mean shoot look how great a year he had last year!?! I worry with Blase we will fall into that same trap only to watch fucito or nyassi play another 7 years of great football, perhaps even fetching a pretty allocation from a sale.
by Kevin Shields on Oct 14, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions
It
wouldn’t matter if we left blaise unprotected or not. Cause there would still be a chance we could lose Fucito. If we are gonna leave blaise unprotected and team is gonna have to protect jaqua. And portland could take fucito and Vancouver could take Blaise thus we would lose 2 good players too good forward players thus the team will be weaker.
If Seattle leaves Jaqua unprotected and Portland takes him we can protect Fuctio as #12.
We know are gonna lose at least 1 maybe 2 players so its key that Seattle needs to plan out who to protect that to where they would lose the least amount of Talent.
Note Portland has the first pick.
I rather lose Jaqua than potentially lose both Blaise and Fucito.
You're setting up a false choice
It’s not like we have to protect 1 player at every position. There’s no rule. If the FO decided to, they could protect Jaqua, Fucito, and Blaise. Now I don’t think that’s a particularly good idea, but it’s possible. IMO if Fucito is unprotected, he’s gone in a microsecond give his salary and what he’s shown so far. Other players at least require some thought IMO based on age, salary, injury-status, etc. We definitely play better with a good target man, so either Blaise or Jaqua probably need to be protected, sure. But then just protect Fucito over a player at another position. The FO did it last year when they protected Ianni and left Riley off the list.
Not saying this is a good idea
But FO could choose to protect neither Jaqua nor Blaise and then just pull one back if the other is picked. There’s no way they’d lose both.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 15, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Kind of how i feel about Sturgis and Evans
If one is taken they can protect the other so it may be possible to leave both off the protected list.
by DarthGreedo on Oct 15, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
One problem though...
If the Caps take Nkufo and the Timbers take Jaqua we’re left without a target man and probably a lot of losses (like earlier this year).
One of the two needs to be protected and I’d rather have Nkufo for those couple of extra years.
In my head we are protecting Jaqua regardless
And if Nkufo is left unprotected there is no way in hell Jaqua is too.
Once we lose a pick we get to protect a 12th player...
If one of them goes for Blaise (or Keller) then we protect Nate.
by Kevin Shields on Oct 14, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt
Keller would be left unprotected. Fans would be in such a BIGGER uproar if we lose Keller than they were when we lost le toux to the union.
Ok I finally have what i think is my Final list... For now.
1. Montero
2. Keller
3. Alonso
4. Zakuani
5. Nkufo
6. Ianni
7. Parke
8. Hurtado
9. Alvaro
10. Jaqua
11. Fucito
12th man protected Depends on who gets taken. If Leo is taken, God forbid (He’s my favorite), I’m afraid we have to protect Riley or vice versa. I don’t think it will be that hard to find one wing back especially a RB, but two isn’t a fun thought. Anyone else I think you have to protect Sturgis or if Sturgis is the one taken then Evans.
The reason I’m protecting Fucito over Nyassi is obvious to most people on here, but I need to justify it for myself so here it goes. Fucitio is Left footed. Once he gets to full game strength he should replace Nyassi on the depth chart. He is a better passer. He can be a back up to Montero as a WF or as an inverted winger on the Right side. We need a good left footed set piece taker to keep defense honest.
His finishing is amazing. American players usually have this wide-eyed panicky look when they have the ball in the box. I don’t see that on Fucito. He doesn’t panic. He passes the ball into the goal. Watch the difference between Nyassi’s finishing and Alvaro’s and you see what I’m talking about. Fucito is closer to Alvaro then he is to Nyassi. This is a talent I haven’t seen in many American goal scorers not named Donovan and Dempsey or McBride. It’s a very underrated talent. Imagine how much better Jozy would be if he was calm in front of goal. I’m rambling but there it is.
We’ll see how long it takes for me to change it :)
Very nice Grasshopper..
..you are very wise!
Also, I don’t know whether you’ve been listening to ALAN HINTON, but he called Fucito “his guy” at halftime of the Chivas-Guad game. Apparently he’s been in love with him since he first arrived last season. ARLO also had the most profound summary of his skill set I’ve heard from anyone. And he knows soccer.. listen to his most recent Chivas game review too on the Sounders site.
Let’s also take notice that Fucito knows how to often get himself in position to take quality shots.. and he’s 90% as good with his right as his left foot, which makes crossing from the right side a non-issue.
Your comments are very insightful, and WAY ahead of the curve on this guy.
by roadrunner11 on Oct 14, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
PS
Fucito needs to be on the field. He is back up to no one.. because he will be as productive as anyone. His energy and play will raise the effort of any Sounder on the field with him. All he needs is Alvaro at CM, and he’ll be good as gold.
by roadrunner11 on Oct 14, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I largely agree
I decided to wait a bit to let emotions relax before I replied to this thread. Here’s what I’ve come up with:
1. Montero – no brainer
2. Keller – not worth the risk of losing him
3. Alonso – no brainer
4. Zakuani – no brainer
5. Riley – honestly, Riley offers a lot in terms of intangibles, namely, a connection to the community that many of our players may lack. Other than Keller, Riley does more for the community, which is vital for a team in Seattle to succeed and continue to be supported. More is said here than elsewhere because this is likely the most controversial of my protected players.
6. Ianni -
7. Parke – Ianni, Parke and Hurtado are all more valuable to us than Leo or Riley
8. Hurtado –
9. Alvaro – no brainer. The post above that identifies that El Flaco can fill our need at CM if Evans or Sturgis is taken makes a lot of sense.
10. Jaqua – I’d rather protect Jaqua than Nkufo. I’d rather have Nkufo than Jaqua. Disconnect is explained by the fact that, while Nkufo is good now, Jaqua is a better piece for the near future.
11. Fucito – Future wing or forward who will murder us if (when) he gets taken. Nyassi has been lucky, but has not demonstrated the consistency required to be protected. I’m not convinced that our CBs won’t be able to protect against him if he’s taken.
Everything matters on what pieces Portland and Vancouver have going in. Portland gets first pick each round, so there is the chance that if we leave something attractive early, we will get to protect the additional player against Vancouver.
by magistermilitum on Oct 14, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
N'kufo
is a better player than Jaqua imo. Seattle would have to find someone to replace N’kufo ball handling skills which would be hard to find. Players specifically younger players with that type of skill at handling the ball would be playing in Europe.
This is understood.
We all know Nkufo is better. Issue is whether 1 year of Nkufo is worth more than 2-3 years of Jaqua.
by magistermilitum on Oct 15, 2010 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow, I’m shocked you would not protect Riley. He is simply the best player on our team. Sure he doesn’t score goals every match but he starts just about every play/scoring opportunity and he is great at cutting out the wingers. Beyond that, he’s a wonderful humanitarian who brings more positives to the city of Seattle than just great crosses and defense.
I’m not convinced that protecting El Flaco is the best decision. The guy is a good player but he hasn’t brought a ton of change to our offense and, in all honesty, he hasn’t really played that much. Considering his DP salary, I think he is less attractive to P*rtscum and I think that, if we did lose him, someone like Montano or Fucito could fill the void.
All of that being said, get rid of Jaqua. I would BEG P*rtscum to take him. A few timely headers does not make a complete player. He’s tall which gives him an advantage in that position but seriously, we’ve made an expensive commitment to Nkufo for the times that we want to “play big” and running Nyassi, Zakuani, Fucito, Montero, or Montano…or Estrada out there at the top provides plenty of small options. Quite simply, Jaqua is too slow to play at Qwest. The ball moves too fast for him to do anything other than receive crosses. That is just not worth a spot and is not worth losing someone like Nyassi or Fucito over. Seriously, last year we protected Jaqua and left Seba out there. Who has had a better year? Do we really want to watch Nyassi smoke Tyson Wahl next year? This team needs speed.
It just seems easier to list players who I feel we could lose.
Evans
Graham
Marshall
Jaqua
Noonan
Scott
Seamon
Vagenas
Wahl
Fernandez
Montano
Hurtado
Levesque
Boss
Gonzalez
Parke
Nothing against any of those guys but I feel like they are all “replaceable”.
Riley
I love Riley as a player. Especially since he cut the attitude problems that have plauged him in the past. I don’t think he’s gotten a red card this year. He is constiant, and plays almost every single game. However, a decent Right back is not that hard to replace. My list is as much who i think is the best on the team as well as who i think would be most difficult to replace. Riley just isn’t irreplaceable no matter how much i enjoy his presense on the team.
by DarthGreedo on Oct 14, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
"He is simply the best player on our team."
He’s a fullback who is adequate going forward and can’t play one on one defence. This is a pretty spectacular misreading of talent on your part.
by Graham MacAree on Oct 14, 2010 10:48 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
A guy who is second on the team in Assists does not really sound like someone who has trouble going forward. You’ll have to show me one of these instances where he can’t play one-on-one because he is spectacular at stopping crosses.
All of that being said, there aren’t enough statistics in soccer. Why can’t I find the kind of information that would allow someone to objectively break down who is better or worse? Where is the soccer version of baseball-reference.com?
by Glenn Darby on Oct 14, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
In the absence of soccer-reference.com you're just going to have to watch them play
And Riley is at least 10 spots away from best player on our team (though I do like him)
Nos Audietis
agreed...
now Riley may very well be the most likable guy on the team and certainly a very solid MLS caliber right wing back but nowhere near our best player…
if he were the best player on the sounders squad don’t you think his next might at least get a mention for MNT?
Riley is awesome though and I love his style of play and attitude
Am I wrong?
I thought DP’s were exempt from the expansion draft.
by seattlecubsfan on Oct 14, 2010 12:50 PM PDT reply actions
If they have a no-trade clause they have to be protected
Otherwise, they’re treated the same as everyone else.
by Brian Floyd on Oct 14, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Only
GA’s are exempt which we don’t have any that is a GA
How exactly does a team get a GA guy
They sound like a pretty sweet deal. Do Garber and Aididas just hand out their rights like candy?
by Dizzo on Oct 14, 2010 1:23 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It has to do with when they are signed
Usually players that are signed pre-college and developed by the team
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 14, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Zakuani was GA, wasn't he?
It’s just that he ‘graduated’ from the program his first season and so was vulnerable in the expansion draft. That’s my biggest annoyance with GA – how seemingly random it is on when they are and when they aren’t.
Fucito Needs to be Protected
I like to look at statistics when I evaluate players especially when comparing two or more and the PP90 for Fucito is the best on the team with a 3.19, now I understand this is going to regress but since we havent seen alot of him, how do we know he wont be around Montero’s level with a 1.11 PP90
Not only that but his salary is laughably small compared to his talent/usefullness
A new team would snap him up for that much without a second thought, whereas players with bigger salaries might at least make them stop and think.
agreed
biggest competition for fucito is jaqua, fucito’s salary < Jaquas salary
another point on the usefullness is fucito ca play all the positions jaqua can as a forward or winger and offsets the loss of a tall body on set kicks with a dangerous free kick taker and quality option on the corner kick
by twimberly23 on Oct 14, 2010 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure I agree that Fucito can be an effective target man
It just doesn’t play to his strengths. We need a Jaqua or a Nkufo out there.
Agree
Target forward would NOT play to his strengths. I’d much rather see him paired with Nkufo or Jaqua than Montero. But I think he’d also benefit much more having Fernandez than Sturgis.
by roadrunner11 on Oct 15, 2010 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions
The Fucito & Levesque pairing worked well...
So I don’t think Fucito needs a big target man to be effective. Unfortunately, Montero really does need that target man up top. That’s the biggest problem with keeping Fucito, IMHO, how the he’ll do you get him and Montero on the pitch together?
by Dizzo on Oct 15, 2010 8:25 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That points something out right there
Are the Sounders going to protect someone who is going to get the 3rd most minutes at Forward?
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Pretty much why they didn't protect Le Toux
And look how much flack they’ve gotten. Le Toux wasn’t a consistant starter on the team on the outside, and wasn’t going to break through at Forward because Montero and Jaqua were producing, yet people still are upset because he’s producing now.
Thats why this is such a hard decision, our depth players are pretty good in the front. Losing them wouldn’t be a huge blow but the production they can acheive for our Rival teams would be brutal to take.
I don't think the flak is what they should be worried about
No matter who gets unprotected a significant number of fans are going to be upset. My preference is that the FO makes the best soccer decisions and hope that works out, rather than worrying about which players would leave the most fans upset.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 15, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh. I agree
That wasn’t supposed to be my point but unfortunetly my poor explanation skills made it seem that way. My point is they need to balance whats best for the team in the short term. (Protect our starting lineup) while also doing what they can to secure our future (Protect our top depth players)
No matter what happens with this draft. I’m sure no one is going to be happy with it. We have too much talent and not enough spots to protect them all.
by DarthGreedo on Oct 15, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm guessing...
…there’s at least 2-3 pieces to the puzzle we don’t have, but obviously the FO does..
While I don’t know about the forward-wing thinking on him next year, you would think they would keep Fucito, because up until 4 MLS games ago, they were only getting scoring from 2 players. Zak/Montero or Zak/Nkufo. Hopefully they can learn a few more things over the next 4-5 games (minimum), including assessing whether Nyassi has indeed turned a corner..
It also begs the question as to why LeToux really was never effective here… while he wasn’t a starter, he sure got a ton of minutes.
by roadrunner11 on Oct 15, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
He was also not playing forward here
I’m guessing his struggles at least had something to do with the way he was used, which I suppose speaks to the possibility that Fucito might not be as effective if we have to use him at a wing.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 15, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Fucito was used as a winger last year
He was then seen as Zakuani back-up
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Now that i know Fucito is left footed
I really think he would do well as an inverted winger. Especially with our play style. Zak cutting in from the left and Fucitio coming in from the right would be a scary though for any defense. Especially with Montero and NKufo waiting in the middle.
by DarthGreedo on Oct 15, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I like that thought of having a full four able to switch up the attack
Both Nkufo and Montero have shown a willingness and an ability to move to the wings and swing in good crosses. Having a full four on the front line that can switch positions and take quality shots on goal would be a nightmare for opposing defenses.
This is MY dream
But you can have it too
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But he's also not had as much success at wing
This year, unless I’m mistaken, all his goals have come out of the forward position. Not saying he can’t play there, just saying it’s hardly guaranteed that he will be as effective.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 15, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I see your logic and trump you with
nothin’ … he just hasnt beeen on the wing this year.
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And if we did play Fucito as a winger
What are the chances we would do something to where Montero and and Fucito switch positions between CF and RM throughout the match to confuse the opponent’s defense?
-Ben R.
That's exactly how the KC goal happened for Fucito
so I’d guess we can say it works.
That's true
While LeToux could run forever, like Levesque, I never thought his speed was sufficient enough to be a real factor outside. (But he also “blew” a lot of shots in front of goal)
Fucito’s would be, obviously, and he played wing his sophomore year and scored something like 9 goals. Similiar circumstance in that neither Akpan nor Altchek could play outside at Harvard. He was moved up top, where he always played prior, when the latter graduated.
I don’t see Montero playing effectively outside for the speed reason as well. I like Nyassi on the wing when he exhibits this type of recent confidence. He’s such a handful.
So do you keep Fucito as insurance against an injury? Or do you at least see if there is a better chemistry and increase in scoring chances with him on the field, and understand whether he can maintain a high scoring rate.
One thing is certain, they haven’t found that out yet..
by roadrunner11 on Oct 15, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes
Fucito is someone you keep for insurance against injury, Nkufo is amazing but does not have the body of a mid 20 year old anymore, and he can sub in for montero fill a similar role as the shifty creative goal scorer. Another thing, I like Fucito off the bench instead of Jaqua as our third forward because Jaqua is more of a holdup player like Nkufo and is usually only an immediate danger on free kicks. Fucito can come in with a faster pace then Jaqua and if we are in the lead provide that forward defense to disrupt opposing teams from beginning attacks.
by twimberly23 on Oct 15, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Fucito as a hold-up player
I remember Dave saying on these boards that Fucito is often used in practices to hold up the ball while the rest of the team moves into the attack similar to Nkufo or Jaqua. He certainly has the upper body strength. Really then, the only thing he doesn’t bring as a sub is the height which is offset somewhat by his ability on set pieces.
However, I do have concerns about his ability to keep that high pace and work rate for a full 90. I don’t think we’ve really seen that yet. In the games I’ve seen him start he tends to come out really strong in the first half and then fade in the 2nd half. Which would limit him as a starter especially in that RW spot.
Work rate
The comment was made that he disappeared a bit in the 2nd half vs. Chivas-Guad. While I expect he will absolutely continue to build fitness, it also should be noted that Fernandez was replaced by Vagenas at halftime, and I don’t have to tell anyone what impact that is going to have on the offensive attack.
IMO, that “fade” comment is more indicative of the style of play than anything else.. much of our possession in the upper 3rd evaporated. That’s a midfield issue.
I’m not at all worried about 90 mins from him as a forward. I agree he’s not there yet for 90 at RW.. but he will be.
by roadrunner11 on Oct 15, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I also thought he faded against Monterry
But then again, there were a number of other factors going on. Such as a tough road game, the rest of the team losing confidence and Fucito just recently coming back from injury.
He was subbed out in the 71st minute against Marathon.
I’m not saying it’s a solid knock against protecting Fucito, but I would classify it as one of those things I just don’t know (but Sigi and the coaching staff probably do know from practices).
by Dizzo on Oct 15, 2010 12:44 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
serious?
I wouldn’t have been able to take that impression away, just because I thought we went into lead protection and then defensive panic mode. Seamon had a terrible game, and it got worse. The defense stopped working the ball upfield and started in with the “over-the-top” nonsense. Plus they made some aggressive offensive substitutions that obviously impacted possession.
So IMO it was the “body of work” more than anything. That said, it was also his 1st 90 min game, so I’m sure there is certainly merit to your observation/sentiment.
by roadrunner11 on Oct 15, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
This is certainly an issue
and that’s a difficult decision for next season. But think 2 or 3 seasons down the road – even with a DP contract, can we count on Montero staying more than another couple of years in Seattle if he continues his current form or even improves (which he hopefully will)? I wouldn’t bet on it and you can’t begrudge a great player wanting to move to a top league.
So in 2 or 3 seasons, what would be better than to have a guy on the team who can play WF, has the potential and skill to be a star, and who has been with the team a few seasons already? Until then, we use Fucito where we can – the wing, a backup for Montero, a super-sub, whatever.
The thing about making Montero a DP...
We will be handsomely rewarded if he goes to Europe. It’s the kind of money the Red Bulls have used to fit their 3 DPs on their roster. No reason we couldn’t find someone comparable to Montero given the proper resources (as in allocation money to pay down the cap hit).
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 16, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
That is true
but in a couple of seasons Fucito could be spectacular and easily able to move into the WF role and the team could look for a DP at a different position – a target forward maybe (Nkufo’d be gone by then most likely)? Or certainly some other position of need. Having Fucito means that the team would have (based on his one season of play) a very solid contributor in that position already and not have to worry about it in any case.
Portland Came out and Said they don't think they'll use a DP slot
Might just be talk but makes leaving NKufo unprotected possible. Vancouver would probably want to go out and get their own DP considering they don’t seem to be the type of team that will skimp on Salary.
Depends who they get for a DP
I could see Vancouver spending on 2 DPs for their inaugural season. If they do land DeMerrit at the back then they would want a DP up front. Nkufo would be a nice fit and would probably like to be closer to his family.
Leaving Keller unprotected would be a mistake...
You seem to be forgeting that he played his College Soccer at the University of Portland and began his pro career with the Portland Timbers before heading to Millwall.
I know the sites old, but it lists both.
Portland could draft him and I could see Keller thinking “I got 2 more years in me at least, how about I go play for the team that got me started.”
We need to sign him to an extension ASAP.
there
are younger just as good GK that would be unprotected.
There are?
Like?
and ones that would significantly damage a competitor?
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Keepers as good or better than Keller in MLS
Keller has a GAA of 1.13 and 11 shutouts for 2010. Goalkeepers with better or similar stats are:
Kevin Hartman (0.62 GAA & 9 Shutouts)
Nick Rimando (0.64 GAA & 13 Shutouts)
Donovan Ricketts (0.81 GAA & 11 Shutouts)
Jon Busch (0.93 GAA & 6 Shutouts)
Bouna Coundoul (1.04 GAA & 10 Shutouts)
Matt Pickens (1.07 GAA & 7 Shutouts)
William Hesmer (1.11 GAA & 11 Shutouts)
Joe Cannon (1.17 GAA & 6 Shutouts)
I wouldn’t imagine that these keepers are going anywhere in the expansion draft. I could possibly see SJ leaving either Jon Busch or Joe Cannon unprotected. But at 34 and 35, respectively, neither are really ‘young’ prospects.
All the really good young keepers (Hamid, Johnson, Seitz, Frei) are likely to be protected.
Wait a second.
Don’t we need to think about who we need to protect so we can save them for Montreal?
And even more important, who are you really hoping slips through unprotected this year, so that we’ll be able to protect him next year?
by Cornchops on Oct 15, 2010 9:34 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
i'm not
worried about Montreal cause there will be 18 teams by then where 8 teams won’t lose a player.
I'll still be worried
There really aren’t that many teams with depth right now and there won’t be many after next year either most likely. So I think there is a high probability that we will lose a player next year as well.
And I wouldn't count on Montreal being the only team added for 2012
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Another team in the Mid-West/East?
To take the conferences to 10 clubs each?
NY2, MidWest or South probably
but the league isn’t going to stop expanding.
The NHL wasn’t a “major” sport until it hit 24 teams. It wasn’t national until probably 28.
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Size isn't what killed the NHL
Poor market choices and a stupid ill-framed labor dispute due to a broken economic model is.
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NHL is not dead yet
They would stand to gain a lot if the NFL or NBA has any kind of labor stoppage. I wouldn’t say that such a labor stoppage is likely, but at this point it doesn’t seem unlikely, either.
UNPROTECT
Lets look from a point of who do we sacrifice rather than protect…..
Here 2 guys we all would like to have but we should sacrifice as we still will be a better team without them:
FUCITO
NATE JAQUA
End. It is a give and take in MLS—- we built our team from the draft and we should help other teams to establish themselves as it is in our best interest that the league survive.
How is Seattle better WITHOUT those two?
That’s about 20 goals over the last two years that you think Seattle doesn’t need?
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It's not like we got our players out of the goodness of other teams' hearts
We took them in an expansion draft because other teams didn’t have the spots to protect them. They didn’t do us any favors, they would have probably loved to keep those guys. I’m not sure exactly how losing Fucito and Jaqua makes us better?
I mean, I’m all for MLS improving, but come on – don’t you think that’s a bit much? Giving up two great players ‘for the good of the league’? Don’t you think we make MLS better instead by fielding the best team we can, which draws even more fans, which brings more attention, which forces other teams to up their game on and off the field, which improves MLS’ product.
Your list is broken.
Just a small comment. We have 8 internationals. We may protect 5. Of those, two are DP’s who must be protected of they have no trade clauses. Looks like you have 7 on your list. Also your list and analysis is poor at best.
You say it is "poor at best"
But don’t say why. It is easy to sharp-shoot days later, but why not give us more analysis? Tell us what you would do different.
Which specific players listed here would you expose? Who should be protected, and why?
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I count 6, depending on Zak
and I don’t remember a ‘can only protect 5 internationals rule’ (though there is the ‘you have to protect 3 internationals’ rule, IIRC). We also don’t know that the DPs have ‘no trade’ clauses, though I seriously doubt the FO would leave Fernandez hanging after paying a fairly sizeable transfer fee for him.
Expansion/Future players
Release: Scott , Noonan , Vagenus , Marshall
Unprotected: Hurtado(Inj), Riley, Wahl, Boss , Graham, Evans(inj), Nyassi, Fernandez(DP),Nkufo(DP), Sturgis, Levesque
Protect: Jaqua, Keller, Montero, Montano, Zakuani, Alonzo, Fucito, Gonzalez, Parke, Ianni, Estrada, Seamon
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