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Correlating Sounder Player Ratings and Salary

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Last week we took a look at the aggregated Sounders player ratings for the season available from a few different sites. With all of the necessary caveats about the data being subjective and inconsistently available, the results were still decent. Other than some frequent reserves whose ratings were noticeably inflated from playing a large number of games against other reserves, the data fit with what I'd call the wisdom of the crowds regarding the play of the Rave Green over the course of the season. And the fact that some noticeably low-rated players received less and less playing time over the course of the season — and vice versa — suggests that the results match up with what Sigi thinks, as well.

This week I want to correlate those ratings to player salary to see if we can find any relationship, and if so what it might say about the return on investment we're getting on the roster. Since none of our sources have added any ratings for the games since we last updated — including the previous Chivas game, the midweek Saprissa game, or this weekend' game at Houston — our final aggregates are unchanged (and incidentally, it's easy to complain when I'm not doing the work, but come on Prost and Josh. Where's the ratings love?).

Before looking at the data, we should recognize that given the small number of data points we're looking at, we're not expecting great results. And in fact I'm making the population even smaller by kicking out players that accumulated a big chunk of their ratings against reserves (this includes Wahl, Montano, Scott, Seamon, Boss, and Estrada). On the scale of relevance of statistical analysis, this belongs somewhere between "nonsense" and "toy". Our hope would be that there's a positive correlation (that is, that players that make more money are producing better-rated performances) and that there's some reasonable goodness of fit (that is, that the variation in salaries has a significant relation to the variance in performances. Or in practical terms, that the results are closely clustered to the best fit line). Also, my hypothesis going in would be that the relationship would be a low-order polynomial (quadratic or cubic) meaning that salaries would go up at a higher rate as better performances are sought. That is to say, you might pay a certain amount to improve from a player who averages 5.5 to a player who averages 6.5. But you'd need to pay more to move from a 6.5 to a 7.5.

So if we do a little Excel regression and calculate the best fit line, what do we get? Well, I was pleasantly surprised by the results:

 

Star-divide

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For those who don't do a lot of linear regression, this is a two-dimensional scatter plot, in which you assign an axis to each of two variables (in this case the y-axis is salary and the x-axis is our season-average player rating). Once you set one up, you can then have some software attempt to find a 'best fit line', which is a line that most closely relates the two axes according to the data we have. Note that even though I hypothesized that the relationship between ratings and salaries would be polynomial, in fact I just went with a straight line. That's because — while I did in fact get a better-fitting line using a quadratic function — the line got weird toward the low end of the salary, because we have a few low-rated players making more money than you'd expect (thanks, Pete). It taught the algorithm that you actually pay more for really poor players, and while that might be how some other franchises operate, we try to avoid that here. And the fit with a straight line was decent. But it does mean that it will recommend a salary for better players that I think is lower than a more appropriate function would give (see Nkufo, for example).

With that out of the way, how's it look? Well, the correlation is positive, which we'd hoped for. And an R-squared of 0.36 isn't half bad given what we have to work with. So out best fit formula is around "y=153x - 755" meaning essentially that for every rating point a player gives you, you should pay them 153K, and then subtract out 755K. This means that at a certain lower threshold (around 5) it'll recommend that you actually pay someone negative money (or that they pay you), but we can just floor anything below 40K to that, since it's the league minimum. And then grumble that terrible players really should be paying us back.

Players above the line are those that the formula suggests are being overpaid. Players below are those that are being underpaid. Remember that I think the line underestimates the recommended salary for higher-rated players, so don't worry too much about Nkufo. On the other hand, it understates the degree to which Alonso is underpaid.

So here's the Sounders' roster of seniorish players (meaning minus the players I pulled out for having ratings too high for playing against scrubs), including their average rating, current salary (the total, not the cap hit) in thousands, what their 'recommended' salary would be under our formula (floored at 40K), and what the difference is.

PlayerSalaryRatingModelDiff
Alonso 69 6.18 190 121
Fucito 40 5.88 144 104
Ianni 76 6.06 172 96
Nyassi 40 5.81 135 95
Parke 100 6.04 169 69
Sturgis 69 5.83 138 69
Riley 76 5.81 134 58
Gonzalez 72 5.57 98 26
Montero 180 6.26 203 23
Levesque 40 5.32 60 20
Zakuani 178 6.22 196 18
Hurtado 121 5.66 111 -10
Evans 124 5.61 103 -21
Jaqua 157 5.72 121 -36
Noonan 96 5.75 51 -45
Marshall 169 5.65 110 -59
Vagenas 117 5.07 40 -77
Keller 300 6.09 177 -123
Nkufo 480 7.05 323 -157
Fernandez 300 5.64 108 -192

Any surprises there? Think Montero would look more underpaid if we weighted towards more recent results? Should Keller get the Nkufo caveat about the line shape, or does 177K seem about right? Disagree that Fernandez is the most overpaid guy on the team (hard to argue when we're paying 300K for a sub, but presumably he's got a more significant role in the club's future plans)? Does the Fucito-vs-Nyassi question still look unresolved?

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Comments

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I'm assuming you used the mean rating.

I wonder what using the median might do for the R-squared value.

by Alan Hudson on Oct 25, 2010 3:18 PM PDT reply actions  

I did

Could be a difference, but the data doesn’t have any significant outliers (like somebody getting a 10 or a 2), so I don’t think the mean deviates too much from the median.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 25, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Given how poor that fit is...

…I think it’s a real reach to say that a player is overpaid or underpaid based on his position relative to the line. I could take the position that a player below the line has been overrated by the player ratings and a player above the line has been underrated by the player ratings. Certainly there is no reason to believe that the player ratings are ironclad.

by ubelmann on Oct 25, 2010 3:25 PM PDT reply actions  

You could. .

except that argument isn’t particularly compelling compared to our intuitions of player quality. Do you disagree that Alonso and Fucito are underpaid relative to their contributions and Fernandez and Vagenas are overpaid? I mean. . sure, you could argue that our intuitions are wrong and Alonso’s salary is a correct measure of his quality and the player ratings just give him too much love. In that case, you would wager that he won’t be getting a pay increase. That’s a wager I’d be happy to take.

Where I think it diverges from intuition are Nkufo (which as I said I think would be fixed by a better curve under more data) and Keller (maybe he would also, maybe not).

Now I agree that an apparently objective analysis whose job is to agree with our intuitions is of limited value, but hey, I said it’s a toy. And there were a couple of results that I found interesting (Fernandez and Montero, particularly). Also Leo. I’ve gotten on him a lot this year, but we don’t pay him a ton.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 25, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess I don't buy it because you haven't shown correlation between the ratings and wins

What we are seeing with Keller, Fernandez, and Nkufo in this chart could possibly be an expectation bias in the rankings. Especially with Fernandez and Nkufo. That group of players could well be judged against a harsher standard because people are expecting a lot from them. We don’t really know unless we look at the correlation between the ratings and something other than salary.

And if you could find a reasonable way to correlate the ratings with wins, you could also correlate the salary with wins. It could be that salary correlates better, I don’t know, but if salary did correlate better with wins, then the chart really could be telling us that Nkufo and Flaco, for instance, are underrated.

And that’s really an awfully weak fit. A quadratic or exponential could fit through there just as well, for all intents and purposes.

by ubelmann on Oct 25, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

An R^2 of .36 is horrible. Sorry. I liked the idea but with that type of correllation the data is kinda meaningless.

by lysander on Oct 25, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

More data

It would be cool to see a fit line generated from data for the whole league overlaid on the Sounders’ data points. This would both give a more accurate fit (presumably), and be interesting to see how the Sounders’ performance/salary compares to the league as a whole. That’s obviously a lot more work though… Interesting post!

by walkie on Oct 25, 2010 3:36 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree

but I don’t want to hunt down player ratings for the whole league (plus the population of ‘raters’ would blow up beyond my ability to filter them for reasonableness).

I’m looking into doing a correlation between +/- or shots data and salary and see if that’s a little cleaner and a little easier to collect.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 25, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

CONCACAF

Is not scrubs.

We didn’t care about those games he played in (well, WE did, but they didn’t matter for the CONCACAF standings), but many of the teams we played against were still in it. Fucito’s goals were in competition that counted; therefore, they count.

Our backup outplayed several of Central America’s best defenders.

by Orothar on Oct 25, 2010 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Reply fail.

Please pretend that this was posted bellow the post reading “Probably. Fucito-Affection may have affected my scrub filter.”

by Orothar on Oct 25, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

"ratings too high for playing against scrubs"

As exciting as he is… doesn’t Fucito fit squarely in this bracket ???

"Kia Kaha" -be strong

by Ravengreen on Oct 25, 2010 4:16 PM PDT reply actions  

Probably. Fucito-affection may have affected my scrub filter

Then again, he did score the winner against Kansas City. . .

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 25, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's lay this out a little differently, shall we...

Fucito scored 2 goals in the last preseason scrimmage vs. OUR starters, BY HALFTIME, putting the reserves up 2-0. He also didn’t have the luxury of having Alonso as his CM, or the other starters as his supporting cast! If he did, he’d have easily had a Hat Trick.
The same logic needs to be applied in the CONCACAF games. A forward with Fucito’s acceleration and finishing ability needs a CM with good passing skill to capitalize on his strengths. Seamon is not of that caliber. I also keep hearing the argument that he “fades” in the 2nd half. Anyone would fade when Vagenas is brought in, since he is unable to effectively transition the ball forward.
The Monterrey defenders were not “scrubs” either. At that point, Fucito, in 1 HALF, had outscored the entire cast of regular starters in the prior 3 CONCACAF games, and he again, did it without the support of the regular starters. And neither were the Marathon defenders.
Why has no one instead suggested that he would likely have had more goals, including in MLS, if he had only been given the opportunity by the coaches to play with the starters???
Given what this guy has “put up” for goals, with considerably less help than Montero, Zakuani, and Nkufo, suggesting he would not be able to continue scoring in MLS games equates to simpleton thinking.
This guy is well beyond needing to prove himself. He’s done it again and again. Time to take the blindfolds off..

by roadrunner11 on Oct 26, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

While your love for Fucito puts you in good company

it’s not really relevant here. The question is whether the player ratings that we’re using in the correlation were accumulated versus other teams’ starters, and mostly they weren’t.

It’s possible he’d get the same ratings or better against starters, but until he does adding the data to the graph is questionable (even though his data is actually in there).

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 26, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Given..

…the overall arbitrary nature of using a collection of arbitrary player ratings from subjective and amateur-at-best talent evaluators, combined with the other assumptions made in this “analysis”, I figured no one would mind a comment they could relate to..
After all, YOU even said “I agree that an apparently objective analysis whose job is to agree with our intuitions is of limited value”.

by roadrunner11 on Oct 26, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nobody minds any comment

except when the comment implies that it’s a response to some assertion or opinion when in fact that assertion or opinion is nowhere to be found.

Nobody said anything about Fucito’s quality. Nobody said anything about what his ratings might or might not be in any game. We were trying to decide whether the data we have puts him into the ‘against scrubs’ bucket or not. What he’s done in reserve games or what he might do with more playing time is irrelevant to that question.

If you want to have a separate conversation about how awesome Fucito is, great. But generally when people start off their own discussions they don’t start out by responding to other comments, calling people ‘simpletons’ and ‘amateur at best’ (do tell. . what’s worse than amateur?) and denigrating other people’s work just to be an ass.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 26, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I interpreted this as an assertion/opinion

“ratings too high for playing against scrubs” by Ravengreen, because it is. Orothar likewise had the opposite sentiment/opinion saying “CONCACAF Is not scrubs”. Therefore I responded to the above, and other past comments.
There have been countless other posts/comments by many individuals made in other articles you folks have written regarding his perceived lower level of play because of perceived lesser competition. I consider those comments as “simpleton thinking”. I never called anyone a “simpleton”, nor an “ass” for that matter, like you Mr. sidereal… No comment or denigration was made of the work YOU did at all, other than by YOU, when you said: "On the scale of relevance of statistical analysis, this belongs somewhere between “nonsense” and “toy”. "
Though I agree wholeheartedly, I’m guessing if I or someone else had said that, you’d have had a major issue, judging by your above “name calling”.

As far as player ratings are concerned, I find the ratings both in Prost and Seattle Times to be “amateur-at-best”. I put no credence in those ratings for most of our players. I find the observations made to be generally superficial and lacking in depth. If you interpret that as denigrating, might I suggest you go shopping for some thicker skin, especially in light of some of the retorts made consistently on this site, i.e. “your obvious misread of talent” or “This is Bullshit” made by some of your own. Put them side by side with mine, and please rationalize why your own writers’ retorts somehow hold a higher standard.
Don’t misquote me, and next time ask for clarification, rather than resorting to name calling.

by roadrunner11 on Oct 26, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good value overall for the team

Looking at the number of players under the best fit line I would say this is mostly a testament to the FO and their management of selecting players. The number of “over-priced” elders are easily buoyed by the number of “good value” or “bargain” players.

Nos audietis in somniis
Nos audietis in altum

by chrisso on Oct 25, 2010 4:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Re-run, with cap hit rather than salary

The sounders have money to burn. The limit on who they hire is the salary cap.

I would love to see this correlation, but with the cap hit rather than the paid salary. This would be more relevant, as it is the real limit relevant in who we can hire.

by ethulin on Oct 25, 2010 5:00 PM PDT reply actions  

the only data that would go down is for the 2 DPs

there is no release on how allocation dollars are used

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Oct 25, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Does this change people's perspective on the expansion draft decision?

To me, this helps cement the “leave Jaqua and Nkufo unprotected” train of thought and then protect one if/when the other gets taken.

by CMC_Stags on Oct 25, 2010 9:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Do these statistics really matter?

I’m most likely throwing myself uder the bus, however a players value toward wins is extremely relative. Nkufo. 11 games. 9-1-1. Was that because of him directly? It does hold some weight. Fucito looks great and I want to see him in a more meaningfull game. Fact is, that he has not played in those games and we don’t knowif his confidence will show. I for one think it will. But still. Fernandez has not had full time in meaningfull games either. Don’t fix what ain’t broken. Sturgis has stuck in the spot, therefore negating Fernandez’s grade. Montero has not scored in over a month. Is he not important? Didn’t play in Houston. We lost. All of this is very subjective. Interesting statistical analysis though.

by Camnehem on Oct 25, 2010 9:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Would it be possible to go back

and add stats from last year?

I’d love to see the difference between Nyassi 09 & Nyassi 10. Looking at years separately would probably be best, especially if players are making different salaries.

Also, where is Ljungberg on that chart?

by agtk on Oct 26, 2010 9:04 AM PDT reply actions  

It's possible, but a lot of work to accumulate the ratings

Just doing this year’s was many hours of work, and I have no idea if the Times or Prost were doing player ratings last year at all.

Ljungberg is off the chart. He had a mediocre player rating and a salary about as big as everyone else combined.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Oct 26, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

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