And now for something completely different
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 8:28 AM PDT
in US Open Cup
157 comments
At some point today, I'm sure we'll post a complete recrimination of last night's debacle. For now, I thought it might be nice to allow ourselves to focus on something else.
Tucked deep inside the AP story about Don Garber's designs for MLS moving forward in this wonderful little nugget:
Garber thinks the league will grow larger than comparable first divisions in Europe. While eventually he would like to see relegation and promotion, it's not on the horizon because there isn't a financially viable second division that would be acceptable to MLS owners if their teams went down.
"In 2011 we'll have 18 teams in our league," he said. "That's the size league that FIFA would like their first divisions to be. My guess is we probably expand beyond that in the years to come. Our country is a lot bigger than many of the European countries that might have 75 or 80 million people — ours (is) 300 million-plus crossing (four) time zones, We probably have some room for more than 18 teams."
The bold is mine.
I know this is a bit of a favorite subject for some of the commenters here, so I figured I may as well share. I have, in the past, been one of the wet blankets on this subject. My assumption has always, and to a degree still, is that MLS won't do this because they don't have to. There's just too much to lose for the current owners, by my thinking.
Maybe I underestimated Garber, though. He must know the hornet's nest he's opened up with these comments. If he wasn't being bombarded with calls to do something like this before, he most certainly will now.
I'm sure he sees games like last night's in Dallas in which there were far less than the announced 8,000-and-change in attendance and realizes that something has to be done to shake up some of these markets that stops short of folding franchises. Relegation is one obvious solution. Maybe if Dallas was in danger of slipping back into the USL/NASL their owners would be more interested in settling their problems.
I will say that I've come around to the belief that relegation is a pretty awesome marketing tool. Currently reading "Bloody Confused" which has plenty of problems, but one of them is not capturing the excitement that comes with teams battling relegation and for spots in the various tournaments around Great Britain and Europe.
Carlos and I had a very long discussion mainly circling around this kind of stuff in the aftermath of last night's game, and I thought I came up with a rather ingenious idea: Instead of finishing the season with a playoff, MLS should push for the final three rounds of the U.S. Open Cup to occur after the regular season is over.
This would put more emphasis on winning the Supporter's Shield (since that would be the defacto MLS championship), and still allow teams to pocket their playoff money (which for some teams isn't that much anyway). I'd bet this would end up being insanely more popular than the current U.S. Open Cup format in which MLS teams usually sleep walk through the first few rounds before treating the last couple rounds with somewhat more importance. If MLS is so in love with the idea of having a Super Bowl-like, end-of-season, winner-take-all game, I'd suggest simply constructing the U.S. Open Cup final in this way.
I think it would also lead to more attention, in general, being paid to MLS. It would honor the tradition of world football by allowing teams of multiple levels to compete against one another (which it obviously already does), while still allowing MLS teams to compete in a playoff for a championship. (I don't know a lot about the Canadian equivalent to this tournament, but coordinating with them would probably be a good idea, too.) It would also vastly expand the number of markets that are paying attention, which MLS would obviously love.
Taking this one step further, I think this would also provide the opening and impetus to take the CONCACAF Champions League more seriously.
Combined, these three championships would make relegation an even more palpable solution, since even if teams are relegated they'd have ample opportunities to play against top-flight teams and give their fans reasons to show up.
I won't pretend to try to answer all the questions relegation brings to the fore regarding the current model of expansion and fees. No matter how much you may believe this is wrong, it has to be reconciled for relegation to gain any sort of foothold. Someone with a much more ingrained knowledge will have to address this issue.
Anyway, hope this gives you something to think about and discuss that doesn't involve burning Terry Vaughn effigies.
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It won't work in the US
The idea of relegation is such a foreign concept to basically everyone in the US that it would seem absolutely ridiculous. I’m not even talking non-soccer fans. I would bet you that a good chunk of MLS fans that only follow their MLS team wouldn’t even know what relegation is. And the costs of being relegated would absolutely destroy a team.
If Dallas can only get 8,000 people at a game now, thing of what would happen if they were suddenly a “minor league” team. That number would drop significantly. Honestly, the only USL teams with any kind of real hardcore support that I’ve seen recently are Portland and Montreal. In 2008 Portland averaged 8567 in attendance. In 2009, 9734. (Numbers from Wikipedia). Montreal averaged 12606 and 12033 respectively. Austin Aztex by comparison drew 2974 last season. Carolina drew 3869 and 2943 for their 08 and 09 seasons. There are those exceptions like Portland and Montreal that bring in good numbers and will only grow with top-tier teams, but the attendance hit after relegation would surely bankrupt most teams, or severely hurt their finances and force owners to do who knows what. Not to mention dropped sponsorships and the like.
I am all for a relegation/promotion system at some point in the future, but not even close to anytime soon. I think we have a long way to go before that.
by chrisperry1983 on Apr 23, 2010 8:45 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Generally speaking
I totally agree, both with the idea that it’s not possible and that I’d love to see it. That said, if Don Garber throwing it out there, I say it’s worth discussing. I guess I should have made my idea bout the USOC being the defacto MLS playoffs, since that’s the idea I’m really interested in. But relegation fits in real well with that, and I think there’s at least a chance that having that kind of competition would help make relegation more possible since teams would still very much be playing for a big prize.
If a team like Dallas were relegated, I honestly don’t know that their attendance would get worse. Supposedly, there were fewer than half as many fans as the announced attendance at last night’s game. I have to believe that the fans that did show are either really hardcore and would follow the team through relegation or so oblivious that they wouldn’t notice.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions
BLAH BLAH BLAH
I apologize for being an jackass about this, but i am so just damn sick and tired of this insipid and ineffectual “it won’t work here” argument… I hear the same old tired excuses rolled out again and again and it’s all tied to these grandiose notions of American Exceptionalism.
again, i apologize, but I am still full of piss and vinegar after last night
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
by malcontentjake on Apr 23, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
No offense taken
but I have yet to see how anybody can explain how it will work. It’d be turning American sports culture on its head. I think someday down the road when soccer becomes a major “contender” here (if that’s the right way to put it) but right now, it will only bankrupt teams.
by chrisperry1983 on Apr 23, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
What I don't understand is the argument that Americans won't 'get it'.
I followed English soccer first and I had no problem grasping the concept, and now I love it. My team is my team, even if they get regulated. It makes the system exciting.
People that think Americans won’t go to matches if their team goes down have a very low opinion of American loyalties.
Coming Soon to SBN: Aston Villa!
by Kirsten Schlewitz on Apr 23, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I concur.
There will probably be some fall off from fans (see Leeds with a 25% drop from Premiere League attendance to Championship League attendance), but a majority of fans will still follow their club. Even if the Sounders had a 25% drop in attendance, they would still have about 26,000 fans in attendance. This would still put them at the top of the attendance figures for MLS. I might actually be more involved with my club if I know they are fighting to get back into the top league after they have been relegated. I think that most people that follow world football have a concept of what pro/rel is all about and how the system works.
by seattle_since_81 on Apr 23, 2010 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the question becomes
Would MLS rather go after real soccer/football fans or casual fans whose interest is so fickle that they only go when the team is winning? I think Seattle,Toronto, Portland have all shown that teams can be successful at the gate without necessarily playing in the top division (portland), winning without regularly winning (toronto) and by targeting nontraditional sports fans (Seattle). Relegation, I’d argue, might draw more of the kind of fans that are showing up in those cities. There are still issues, to be sure, but I think the issue of support is overstated.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
woops
I mean "drawing without regulary winning (toronto).
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that's being pretty optimistic
Look at what happened to the Sonics after they sucked year after year. The Mariners too now have terrible numbers. I think a lot of people are fair-weather fans. If the Sounders tanked, I bet we wouldn’t get half the season ticket renewals, and attendance would be cut significantly. Yes there are those of us who are die-hards and will support no matter what, but a lot won’t. Seahawks seem to be the anomaly, although they had several years of good seasons and are only a few years doing poorly. We’ll see what happens with them.
by chrisperry1983 on Apr 23, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
And, again, just to offer the counter-point
In a parity system like MLS the chances of us sucking are probably far greater than if, in a relegation system (and I think everyone agrees this is the only way it could work) teams are allowed to spend more freely. It would be in Seattles of the league’s best interest to not suck for fear of relegation. No such impetus occurs now.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
True
but the incentive to not suck is still there right now. These guys want to win trophies and have that prestige of being winners. Portsmouth, Burnley, and Hull don’t want to suck for fear of relegation, but the reality is they are likely heading in that direction. (Ports is already guaranteed that due to the administration points deduction)
by chrisperry1983 on Apr 23, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
By the way
Great topic of conversation. I would much rather be debating on this than remembering what happened in the game yesterday.
by chrisperry1983 on Apr 23, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Happy to hear that
I’ve started another thread that will hopefully focus on these issues, rather than the more general idea of wether it’s a good idea or not.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
"American loyalties"
are by definition quite flexible, and are often based less on location (where you live and the team(s) near you) as they are on winning and traditions of winning.
Attendance numbers don’t lie. Nor do the thousands of bandwagon Red Sox fans that show up at Safeco. They can’t all be from New England. Can they? Would they be there if the Red Sox Sux?
You're right
But are those types of fans reliable? I don’t think you can build a league based on drawing bandwagon fans.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
no you can't
And the MLS shouldn’t. I bet even if, say Los Angeles went down, you’d still get a good crowd because there are enough people who’d want to go and watch their local team. Also, if a team goes down, tickets should also go down.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think that people would come
if LA was sent down. Americans don’t care about the local team. They care about winning.
Except for football. College and NFL teams often do OK despite poor records.
Baseball? Basketball? Hockey? You don’t win, you play in echoey venues.
All sports have their hardcore fans. But in the US, a significant presence is the casual fan, with that “American” loyalty.
Exaclty
MLS attendance sucks now, and we want one or two teams that have the worst attendance to go down?
How does that BUILD the sport/brand
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I'd offer this
With that kind of support, being Up is harding helping them. Although, FCD has usually been good enough to avoid relegation.
One way or another, the league has to deal with Dallas. This would be one way. I’m sure there are others. Doing nothing, though, should not be an option.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Dallas, Columbus, Colorado
Their business plans all currently suck.
Relegating them and bringing up teams with 5,000 seat stadiums isn’t going to help.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
5000 k stadiums
Absolutely part of this plan would have to be some kind of minimum seating requirement of about 10k. Obviously, that’s another obstacle. A clearable one, I think, but definitely an issue that must be dealt with.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 24, 2010 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions
More importantly
I don’t think anything like this is meant to happen quickly. If the process starts now, for instance, I’m guessing there’s at least a good 5-10 year lag time.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 24, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
And we're saying
maybe in 5-10 years, MLS and US soccer might be able to start this process.
At least, that’s what I’m saying. Actually, I’m saying 10-15 years.
Which is why I voted to talk about the referees.
Fair enough
I’d only say that if MLS wants this to happen (and that is what I based this conversation on), the process has to start sooner than later. Not relegating teams, necessarily, but figuring out whether that system could work and how you make it happen.
I’m sure we can debate the refs thing plenty in the next day, and probably for the next few months.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 24, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions
If you had an option to talk about something else
I would have voted for that. I’m not that interested in talking about officiating, either.
Both of these topics are completely overdiscussed.
Uh...
There have been plenty of other topics posted since this went up. Feel free to ignore it. There was a news angle on this thing, after all.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 24, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not needed.
I don’t know about us not getting it but we certainly don’t need it.
The American system is a simple one. And it’s based on fan support more than anything.
If you don’t put a good product on the field, fans don’t pay money to attend the games. Eventually, the team starts losing money and the owner has two options. They can spend money to get better, or they can sell the team. Our version of relegation and promotion is moving a team from a market where it is not succeeding to one where it will.
This system works for all of our sports.
And, we can’t have a European system because we aren’t a European country. England has four professional leagues with dozens of teams. The whole country is smaller than Louisiana.
We have 18 teams spread out across the US and Canada. MLS teams don’t represent a city or a portion of a city. They represent entire regions. You can’t just relegate New York’s soccer team. You’d lose all of New York City. And New Jersey. And Connecticut.
If you relegated the two worst teams last year, neither New York nor the Bay Area would have an MLS team right now. MLS can’t afford that.
Imagine if Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, West Ham, and Fulham were all relegated leaving London with no Premier team. It would be like that. Only worse. Because soccer in America is a fifth tier sport.
And just in case you don’t appreciate how niche soccer is, go to http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/ and try and find the Sounder/FCDallas recap. MLS cannot afford to lose entire regions.
by Jack Brando on Apr 23, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Just so we're clear
I’m not suggesting that we import a Euro system without altering it. More importantly, MLS’s funding structure would have to be altered to allow something like this. As currently constructed here and practiced elsewhere, I don’t think a rel/pro system works. We would have to find a uniquely American way for it to exist. I don’t know what it would have to look like and is part of what I’m trying to gather here.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
If they go beyond 18 teams they have to get rid of the playoff structure. That’s too long of a season. I agree though that the Supporter Shield should be the best prize for the MLS season and I would like the USOC to be the big knock-out format in US Soccer, not the MLS playoffs.
Let’s face it, it is ridiculous that Salt Lake city can win the Eastern Conference and that a sub .50 team can have top honors in our league.
Note that he still mentions expansion?
They aren’t stopping at 18 teams. And the schedule isn’t going to go beyond 30 games.
That means that Conferences are here to stay. And the unbalanced schedule returns next year.
The only way to crown a champion with an unbalanced schedule is through a playoff.
Currently the Supporters Shield carries the same weight was MLS Cup in terms of prize money and CCL entry. The only difference is the words regular season exist in front of Champion.
A dramatic change in the structure of the league is not necessary to satisfy people’s semantic desires.
As expansion continues and the playoffs remain at 8 teams there will no longer be teams earning less than 1.33 points per match making the Playoffs and so the arguments against the Playoffs will continue to get weaker.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Not that I disagree
As long as every team plays each other at least once, I don’t know that you need a playoff to decide anything. I don’t think it’s inherently less fair than having four games decide a season.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions
That changes in 2011 though
This will be the only season with a balanced schedule.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I guess I don't follow
ARe you saying once the league expands to 18 teams, every team won’t play each other at least once? I can understand why there won’t be home-and-homes, but why wouldn’t they play once, like they do in hockey?
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry misread
But if you get only one match against the Galaxy, but 3 or 4 against last year’s Red Bull, can you really be a Champion?
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Well...
I would suggest that no team should play another more than twice. So, if you have 30 games and 20 teams, you’d play the nine teams in your conference twice (18 games), the other 10 teams once (10 games) and two other conference teams twice (2 games). That’s a total of 30 games, with all but eight teams playing each other twice. Seems like you can definitely crown a champ that way to me.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree
It might even be fairer….but is it more exciting? Man U winning the championship in a game where they didn’t shoot on goal…not even once….against nobody, really is boring. That happened in the last couple of years.
That "against nobody" was Arsenal. Boring game but the title was locked up.
The year before that we needed to beat Wigan on the last day. Won 2-0.
Year before that they beat Man City and won the title after Arsenal drew Chelsea.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
EPL
I don’t follow it like you do. It is unwatchable in my opinion. but I dont think the Arsenal game was what clinched the title.
Either way Boooooring.
Are you talking last year? Drawing 0-0 with Arsenal clinched it.
I hated it to but a title is a title.
EPL is far more watchable than MLS in terms of quality.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
OK
But it is unwatchable as virtually none of the game matter.
3/4 of the teams have been out of the title hunt since before Christmas….like any of them had a chance before the season started. I think Everton was 500-1 to win it all…..what a joke. No team in the NFL would be that low, much less one of the better teams.
You're looking at it from a title perspective.
1st-4th gets you into the Champions League, the most prestigious club competition in the world. 5th-6th/7th gets you into the Europa League, the ugly stepsister of the most prestigious club competition in the world…but it’s still a competition to get you a nice shiny trophy.
18th-20th means your ass is relegated. Based on that there is a lot more to play for than you think. When your club gets relegated it damages you financially the same way getting promoted from The Championship wins you a ton of money and possibly free cocaine and hookers.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
It's about how far you fall
The difference between moving from the EPL and Champions league is less then the drop off between MLS and USL.
EPL is far and away the number 1 sports league in England, and that’s probably true for any top flight league in Europe. The secondary league is still probably a top 5 sports league in almost all countries. You still get TV dollars. You still get mentioned on the news. You still sell shirts.
In the US, the drop between MLS (maybe #6 league in USA) and USL. So, you drop from a league that not many care about into a league that no one cares about.
It’s easy to spend other peoples money.
the difference between the Premier League and the Championship
is GBP60 million, which is probably about $100 million. That difference could be enough to bankrupt teams (see Burnley if they overspent, Hull City)
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
None of the games matter?
Nearly every game this weekend will have an impact on the title, on Champions League play, on Europa play and on relegation. How do none of those matter?
Coming Soon to SBN: Aston Villa!
by Kirsten Schlewitz on Apr 23, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
seriously
United v Tottenham which has implications for the title and CL
Villa v Birmingham, Villa fighting for fourth which is becoming unlikely
Arsenal v City: Arsenal need to win to secure 3rd, City need to win to fight for fourth
Chelsea v Stoke: Chelsea face probably there biggest test before the end of the season
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
This doesn't have much to do with the rel/pro talk...
I really think the league needs to rethink not keeping a balanced schedule. If they don’t want the extend the playing past late november then they should add on to the beginning. Especially with the way our league is off set from “the rest of the world” (yes I know there are leagues that play roughly the same time as us).
There is also another reason to start sooner. It allows teams in the CCL to have some play before they start the second round of the CCL which would help make MLS teams more competitive. I think if Columbus was in the middle of their season they may have had a better chance or even beaten the Mexican team (they were pretty close as it is).
First of all
The AP guys said that Don would be ok with relegation/promotion….not Don. I have yet to see him say anything close to that.
Fair enough
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Pro/Rel
Pro/Rel is the single stupidest idea in the history of sports and business.
Lets move a team, lets call them Leeds, to a position where they will not draw fans or have TV revenue when they used to have both. Yeah smart move.
Add on top of it the fact that MLS is not a “joke” league where the same two teams win every year and the others are jokes and the idea becomes even dumber.
Imagine last year. LA would have been in the minor leagues. Yeah, good idea. And people argue that PLAYOFFS allow weak teams in ?!?!?!
Lastly, do you realize that Chelsea has a winning record against Man U in all time EPL play ? Man U 11 ( 12? ) championships…Chelsea two. Regular season champs are VERY boring. Beat up on pathetic teams to win a championship. Last year was a perfect example. Columbus losing to Salt Lake 3 out of 4 times ( cant beat the best ) but would have won the league championship. Dumb.
That's the point.
If you suck you deserved to be punished. While that’s never going to work in North America, basically you’re rewarding mediocrity. The goal at all times is to win.
Could you imagine if school went like that? A dumbass D student in the 5th grade passes along with everyone else?
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
So the Seahawks
Who suffered some injuries should be put in the minor leagues 4 years after playing in the Super Bowl ?
No, this is a fair league someone has to finish last. It is a fact.
It can't work that way.
I’m talking about single-table leagues like the MLS should eventually be in the near future.
I would like a playoff system in the EPL (top 4 play against each other in a knockout round) but relegation needs to stay. Leeds United were once one of the biggest teams in England and winning trophies left, right, and center. They are in League One right now due to poor play and serious financial issues. It could happen to any team, including the Big 4.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
The FA wouldn't willingly just "bail out" teams who can't properly balance their checkbooks.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Asking a question
It was smart to make Leeds unsuccessful ?
Why ?
Lets face it the Detroit Lions still draw 50k, the Seahawks still sell out.
Moving them down ( like Leeds ) and they don’t
Why is this smart ?
The Lions have been blacked out on local TV for 3-4 years in a row.
Instead of facing serious consequences for not even being competitive, including an 0-16 record. They just keep raking in top 3 draft picks who could boom or bust.
It’s smart because of the way the system is set up. Leeds made themselves unsuccessful and they paid the price.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Why use examples from the NFL?
Especially when no one’s suggesting we do this with the NFL? They are totally different creatures. There is only one competitive football league in the world. They just aren’t equivalent to compare them.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
should say "American football"
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Gridiron
Gridiron is a good word ;-)
I think MLS is way closer to NFL type league than to EPL.
Either way, it just is not a smart move to move a team to the minor leagues that can make you a LOT of money.
Imagine of the Sounders were moved down. Funny to think about the idea that MLS would entertain the possibility.
You're right. It's closer to NFL type because they started the league only 16-17 years ago.
The EPL can afford to drop a club or two down due to financial issues when the top 10 clubs in the table can offset the losses.
Money aside, I’m not a fan of rewarding poor play. It makes no sense to do so.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Think about this
In the last 2 years, the league would have lost LA with Beckham and NY. Can you see the league approving a system where they lost the Galaxy to relegation?
TV is about markets and in the small confines of a European league, losing one team to Relegation doesn’t cost you a major TV market.
Losing LA and NY would cause ESPN to rip up the TV contract.
That's a very real issue, no doubt
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
That and
the fact that the EPL team relegated probably doesn’t draw that much in the first place. Newcastle being an exception but they are back up again anyway.
IN MLS, a competitive league that is not the case. LA being one of the bigger drawing teams.
Hmm...I actually agree with you in this case.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
;-)
Sweeet.
Now let me say Arlo has rocked it.
I stand by every comment I made, but Arlo was so exceptional, he made it mute.
I do hope he gets a little more American.
No, he needs to stay the way he is...maybe talk a little less.
Calabro was terrible and although he’s a great announcer for basketball, he knows jack about soccer and shouldn’t have been the long term answer.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
WBA, Portsmouth, Burnley and Hull City
all disagree. But those teams going down aren’t going to do anything to the television contract. Even if the Big 5 were all relegated, it wouldn’t do anything, because the league would still be competitive enough to attract a huge TV audience and big name players, because of the money from the champions league.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
The big difference
NFL is the one and only viable “Gridiron” league in the world. MLS is like the 10th-15th best soccer league. We’re talking about a league many American soccer fans already don’t look at seriously. I’m not saying relegation fixes this, but it doesn’t have to hurt teams as much depending on how the system is structured. I don’t have those answers, I’d love to see if anyone else does.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
The thing that I don't agree with in your argument is,
is that you make it sound like any team at anytime could be relegated. Pretty much the only way that a team is relegated is if they are putting a crappy product on the field that isn’t winning. I’m not sure about your argument about Leeds, also. I looked at their attendance figures from the 2005/6 season, when they were in the English Leauge Championship, and their 2009/10 season so far, now they are in League One. They are still averaging the same attendance. I don’t see a major difference from them being relegated. Is there something else that you are focusing on with Leeds?
by seattle_since_81 on Apr 23, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Leeds
First in a parity league, you can go worst to first ( see LA for an almost example ) so yes you can be relegated any time.
See our Seahawks for another example.
Second, are you saying Leeds is drawing the same as when they were in the TOP league. I didn’t look it up, I don’t know a single number even, but there is no way.
Good point about parity
If you’re going to institute relegation, you have to allow teams to spend what they want. MLS’s forced mediocrity would make it (a) hard for teams to ensure their standing, due to the relative closeness of talent, and (b) make it difficult to bring up a new, strong team, since it would be so hampered by salary restrictions.
The increased DPs could be one part of solving this. I think a salary cap should stay, but if there was relegation, there would have to be a cap that was high enough to allow teams to compete at all levels.
They aren't drawing the same
but they’re drawing better than some Premiership, Championship and most League One teams.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Leeds got into financial difficulty
and then had to sell there players. Same with Portsmouth. Newcastle were just useless. WBA came up and then went down again.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
sorry, but I gotta call you out on this, your ignorance is palpable
There are leagues beyond England, ya know, just saying, like the Bundesliga, which draws more fans than England and has more competitive balance…. you might want to know what you’re talking about before you rant against the system that never sees teams relocate and only in exceedingly rare circumstances see teams fold.
Rel/Pro is a more “free market” approach, and allows clubs to find their own “level of buoyancy” within the structure of leagues. What this does it make the entire system MORE financially stable, not less. I would suggest reading “Soccernomics” for more clarification.
Another thing, Rel/Pro has a proven, 100+ year old track record of success. Let me ask, how many Major League Baseball team have folded or moved in the last 100 years?
All I ask is that you have a clue before you post an opinion…
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
by malcontentjake on Apr 23, 2010 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions
He's got this fetish with England I don't understand.
I just realized he’s the same Charles over at MLS Talk. You should’ve seen his rant over Calabro/Arlo.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
What part
Was clueless ?
The Brazlian leagues are even more exciting, so what ?
It is still a dumb idea. Moving Leeds to a postion where they don’t succeed is dumb. Point blank. No reason for it and dumb.
Very offended you use ignorance. I don’t call you ignorant because you disagree with my viewpoints.
No. Get your crap together financially and we won't dock you points.
Don’t suck on the pitch and you get to stay.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
They were doomed irregardless of their financial situation.
But hey, they’ve got the FA Cup Final to look forward to.
Sometimes you do need a year in a lower league to get your act together.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Newcastle
Do you think that they honestly got their act together ?
OR
Just beat up on inferior competition ?
They're not broke. They got their act together after the whole ownership fiasco.
The playoff system will determine the last team to go in.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Newcastle is fine
They drew a lot less people due to being relegated and no one here has said why this is a good idea yet.
But they are up next year and they are fine.
What if they dropped again like many said they could ?
Then what ? half as many fans ? Nice, why is that a smart move ?
they'd still get a huge number of fans even if they went to the 3rd Division
They’re the big local team in the north west.
In England, you still get 5,000 or so to watch Division 4 football, because they support there club. It’s the community event, so to speak.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
except that more than 50 teams have gone into administration
since the EPL started.
It is NOT more financially stable.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Just so we're clear
I’m not saying that we should just cut and paste the EPL system into MLS. Obviously, there are lots of reasons that won’t work here. I just think it’s worth exploring HOW it could work here. Unfortunately, I’m starting to wonder if people like the idea of relegation more than they like thinking about how to make work. I think the US Open Cup idea is one idea that makes it more possible. Maybe it doesn’t. I think debating the merits of relegation/promotion is the easy part, figuring out how to make it work is the challenge for its proponents.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions
if the Premier League is such a joke
then why is it a) the most watched league in the world, b) has dominated the Champions League over the last 5 years, this year excepting, and c) has 8 of the top 15 European clubs?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Great discussion...my .02 cents...
Leeds is in League 1 because of how they ran their business…previous regimes were incompetent and foolish and they paid the price…and rightly so. Leeds absolutely deserves to be in League 1 right now (and I say that as a Leeds fan).
In MLS (and franchise sports leagues in America), a team like Dallas can be poorly run every year and get away with it (and still pocket money from ESPN and FSC TV games), where is their incentive? That fans might not show up? Already happening. Pro/rel creates incentives for teams to succeed.
I don’t know that Pro/Rel would work here due to the current structure of the league (as others have pointed out), and I wouldn’t advocate it in the other sports, but I don’t think it’s the “stupidest idea in the history of sports”.
And…Leeds still averages above 22,000 fans a game and brings thousands of fans to their away games…I bet a lot of MLS teams would like that. If they get to the Championship next year, they’ll probably be in the 30s, and if they were to ever get back to the EPL, they’d sell out every game. Seems like that’s a good incentive to try not only win games but do it in a smart and sound way.
"A bad day at the track is better than a good day at the office."
by MattGSeattle on Apr 23, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank you
I’m glad the finer points of this discussion are being picked up upon. I think if people look behind the general premise and look hard enough there are some great nuggets of base here.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Congratulations, Mr Clark
perhaps it was the bitter shock of last night’s result, but it seems something has been jarred in your brain, and I can say that I am proud of you this morning, because it looks as though you have finally begun to see the light!!! ;-)
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
He didn't writ this, I did
Please read the comments where he says he doesn’t think this is a good idea.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
oops ;-)
my bad, I linked here through his Facebook profile so i assumed he wrote it, sorry for the confusion
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
by malcontentjake on Apr 23, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions
No problem
Just didn’t want you to think anything that wasn’t true.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Sounder at Heart I'm a Toronto FC fan (since day one!)
Would you mind if I put up a Q&A fanpost ahead of this weekend’s game? I’ll be around for most of today and Saturday to answer any Sounders FC fan questions in regards to our trash team.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Relegation
I think relegation works where it is currently in place. It adds drama to the bottom of the table that is not seen in the traditional American sports.
I’m not sure how long it will be before it could be viable in the U.S. I look at a city like London that has what, 13 clubs in the top 4 leagues? New York doesn’t even have one professional club that plays within the city. L.A. has 2. Even “Soccer City” Seattle didn’t really become so until the MLS was here. America tends to lend crazy support for those leagues that are the worlds best (NFL MLB NBA). There are a smattering of minor league baseball teams that get exceptional attendance. At this stage, the vast majority of clubs in America would shrivel and die if relegated from MLS to a lesser league.
Also, why are playoffs the Great Satan in so many peoples minds?
It also implies that you can't just tank it for draft picks on the final day.
Promotion/Relegation also probably won’t make it here because the draft would certainly be restructured.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Playoffs aren't bad
And my idea would still allow for them with USOC. I just think that this is a way to bring the interest level of USOC up, make the regular season more important and make it palpable for a relegation system to exist. As for minor leagues, many already believe MLS is a minor league (I’m not one of them, btw). The difference for many would be the difference between Triple-A and Double-A, not MLB and Single-A.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course Don works for the owners
And I don’t see the Owners, you know the guys investing the money, turning their league into a giant lottery with their investment.
So, what Don thinks matters about as much as what the people on this board think. IE not much. It’s all about the guys putting down $45 million a team and if they want to have that investment turned into $5 million USL team.
My guess is no.
Of course you're right
And that’s why I say that I don’t know all the answers here. The owners definitely aren’t going to go for relegation as the league is currently constructed. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to make it financially feasible. I was hoping I’d get some feedback about how it might work financially, out of honest curiosity, but haven’t gotten any of that yet. I’m still hoping.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
disagree
Sorry but I disagree. I think that is DOES mean there isn’t a way to make it financially feasible.
If there was no possible way
It wouldn’t be successful anywhere. I’m not saying there is an obvious way here, but there’s obviously a way out there.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
What about the TV money
Are you saying that the TV money for USL and the Championship league are equal? Or that the naming rights for the league are equal? Or that the histories that keep fans through the down turns is equal?
I think there are a lot of substinative differeneces.
What?
I’m not even partially claiming any of those things. I’m also not saying that the answer to this question is in how other leagues do it. I’m merely saying that other places have found a way for it to work, which means a way exists. To just close your mind to the idea, doesn’t make it impossible.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
My thoughts
I happen to think that soccer is great enough that the leagues will be successful no matter how screwed up their leagues are.
And I think that I have proven correct.
MLS will be the most successful soccer league in the world in my lifetime if they stay the course but get more agressive about spending. No doubt about it in my mind.
Which is different than saying a way doesn't exist
I appreciate your faith in MLS. I won’t begrudge you that. You can want MLS to maintain the course, that’s a perfectly legitimate and valid point of view. It also doesn’t make relegation impossible, merely undesirable. Two very different things.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Logic
The Sounders ( and Toronto ) have enough fans to draw like a typical EPL team. LA and NY can get there quickly.
So now you are looking at TV revenue/jersey etc rev. When/if MLS hits close to top league status….Game over. US has too many people ( $ ) for England, Spain etc to compete.
Plus all the teams are successful in competitive leagues. Not just a couple.
It's completely offset by the crap support from Dallas, Colorado, and Columbus.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Bizarre
How Seattle and Toronto get it, and the rest of NAmerica doesn’t
I think Vancouver will have good support. Portland too.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
by SSreporters on Apr 23, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
MLS most successful league in the world?
Only if the US becomes a soccer powerhouse will that even be a possibility.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
Funny
I was reading that Chad Ochocinco was saying he would play soccer if the NFL went on strike. Meaning he made a choice to play in the NFL..why ?
Money.
That is the key for me for the US to become a soccer powerhouse.
Can you imagine him as a striker ? I think the Sounders should pick him up and see if they can flash develop his soccer skills.
Ochocinco could be a damn good player. He's got decent skills.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
by SSreporters on Apr 23, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I always thought we missed
On Allen Iverson. His tenacity to score would have made him one of the 5 best strikers in the world.
Would've been kicked off the team for gambling problems and refusal to practice.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
by SSreporters on Apr 23, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Larry Fitzgerald for goalkeeper.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
by SSreporters on Apr 23, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
You said
“if it’s not possible here, into not possible anywhere”
I’m just saying their are reasons it can work elsewhere that we don’t have here.
And I agree
I’m just saying that there’s probably A way. Nothing anyone has said convinces me there isn’t A way. I don’t know that way. I’ve made suggestions that I think make it more possible. Believe it or not, I’m not convinced that relegation is a great idea. I’m mainly curious as to how people see it being possible. Obviously, you don’t see a way. I get that.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
So what do we need to solve
1) Relegation can’t be a financial death sentence
2) Parity as we know it in MLS has to die.
3) The second division needs at least a few teams that can carry the water in MLS if brought up.
what else?
More issues
4) How does MLS maintain control
5) What’s the process that new teams must follow
6) What’s the number of teams you need to make this viable
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Attached to question 4
What process protects the investments of teams that predate relegation?
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey lets play the what if game
30 teams, 20 in 1st division, 10 in second
2 up and down.
All teams are part of SUM and salaries are paid out of the MLS salary pool structure. Teams are allowed to spend above MLS salary pool to improve roster, but that is out of their own funds.
Teams moving up are given a package similar to expansion teams now. Maybe limited expansion draft picks, maybe additional allocation dollars. etc.
New teams will need stadium deals in place that allow them to seat ~17K or greater and at least a few wild projections that show they can meet those numbers.
We increase roster size and pay for it by going from a 30 game season to a 40 game season and playing a balanced schedule. Increased rosters allow mid week games most weeks.
Who woulda thunk?
That one of the “anti” guys is the first to suggest something actionable? I think this is a great conversation to have, and the one I was hoping to spark. If there’s actual interest in discussing the hows, instead of the whys and why nots, I’m more than happy to start another thread so that it’s more easily accessible. Is anyone other than me and Blake interested?
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Along that line
I’d argue that the interest in Philadelphia’s first season would be even higher if fans believed that they had to play their way into the top division. Obviously, failure to do so would eventually take its toll (how would TFC’s support felt about this?), but if a team was really committed you have to imagine they’d get there pretty quickly.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
One more suggestion
Part of what makes relegation work, at least to me, is that so many teams are playing for something. If you had relegation and no playoffs, you’d need to have other tournaments. This is one place I think the system breaks down a little. What makes the Europa tournament work is the fact that so many countries feed into it and there’s a feeling that even though those aren’t the best teams in Europe, they’re still worth watching. I have doubts about that working. Do US fans want to watch their fifth-place team play the fifth place team in Mexico so that they can say “We’re No. 5!”?
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn't fifth place in Mexico still pretty damn good?
Coming Soon to SBN: Aston Villa!
by Kirsten Schlewitz on Apr 23, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
btw
I see you’re an Aston Villa supporter. Where do you stand on the whole “Martin O’Neill hasn’t gotten us to the Champions League, sack him”?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
We don't pay to see
a first place team take on a first place team play a 1st place Mexican team. Any solution here is going to take a big jump in the importance of our champions league and/or US Open Cup.
That's my biggest point, in fact
I think US Open Cup should be a bigger deal.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that the US Open Cup
needs to get more notice than it does. It’s currently one of the easiest ways for teams to qualify for the CCL. I mean Sounders are in the CCL because of the US Open Cup this year. The US Open Cup I think has been slowly gaining in popularity, but is still far away from what it deserves in fan recognition (or even club recognition) for how important it is.
I’m also an advocate for the MLS being a part of some kind of competition like the Europa League… currently Superliga is the closest we have, which is pretty lame, but could be pretty cool if the MLS brought got more or North America and the Carribbean involved.
The obvious difference being...
They can be more. Promotion is obviously part of this equation.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe someday they can play with the big boys!
And when that day comes…
…then I’ll go to the games.
And they won't get there without your help :)
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Which means they'd never get there
It’s a Catch-22. Owners would have to be willing to pay the costs of advancement without significant fan support, until said advancement is achieved.
But maybe those costs would be less than the $40 million expansion fee (though presumably there would still be some sort of initial cost).
That's exactly what I recommend
You have to lower the expansion fee for this to work.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I like this.
Coming Soon to SBN: Aston Villa!
by Kirsten Schlewitz on Apr 23, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm going to start another post, using Blake as a spring board
Here’s the link to that discussion.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not Relegation vs Playoffs
The real issus is Relegation vs Salary caps.
How do you ask a team to go down to a lower division when they are not allowed to spend their own money to make themselves more competetive?
great question
Great comments by everyone…I could do this all day….wait I do.
Totally true
Assuming the reporter didn’t totally put words in Garber’s mouth, that’s probably the single biggest problem with him even opening the door. MLS has to reconcile this issue before they can even pretend to talk about relegation.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Love It
I love the idea of replacing the playoffs with the final rounds of the US Open Cup especially if there is a lower division team in the final 3 rounds. Americans love underdogs.
I do not care for an MLS team winning the MLS Cup and had a crappy regular season that is not a heart warming story.
But the MLS and owners won’t get past the $$$ made from the playoffs.
I have my doubts
I’m willing to bet that MLS could easily recoup any money lost from the playoffs in increased gates and TV contracts from higher interest and emphasis on USOC.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Not without a way for teams who want to win to separate themselves from the ones that don’t. Right now Seattle draws 36k/game and Dallas is lucky to draw 6k, but on the field there is virtually no difference. Seattle was a couple points from the Supporters Shield and also a couple points from what would have been the relegation zone with only a few weeks left in the season last year. As long as they are striving for parity there is no way pro/rel would work.
Another good point
I think you have to address the salary cap, because you’re right, you can’t have parity if teams are actually being punished for failure. Teams have to be able to control their own destinies to whatever degree is possible.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 23, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
the salary cap was necessary to ensure the league survived
but once you get expansion over with, then you can do away with the salary cap, and install promotion/relegation because lets face it, a team that draws 6,000 in the top league in the country, and maybe the continent probably shouldn’t be in the top division.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
The not drawing 6k(ish) for a top league doesn't exactly hold up
Since the Nkufo announcement i’ve been playing attention to the Eredivisie and all but the top 6-7ish draw as little as dallas does every game. I’m sure the other “non super leagues” in their top divisions are pretty much the same.
If you’re talking about the “top” 5 league types like Ligue un, Serie A, Bundesliga, Premier League, La Liga, etc. then maybe that holds true. Once you stray from those leagues the attendence of all but the best teams in a league I think plummets pretty severely (can’t base it on anything other than 1 league at this point)
Yeah, I'm talking about the 5 biggest leagues in Europe.
And remember, the MLS is probably the biggest league in North America.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 23, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
This post is for Charlie J
The reason why there is relegation in England is because the Clubs dominate the league, unlike in the US, where the clubs are just franchises, not clubs like in Europe. If there isn’t a fair system where every team can get the lucrative riches of the Premier League, and the Football League in the past, then there is no league. The Premier League has no real power, they’re dependent on the clubs, while in the US, the franchises are dependent on the league.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Amen
And until there is so much demand for watching soccer in this country.
The promotion/relegation idea will never work.
THEN we can debate whether it is a good idea in this country.
As it is one team has enough demand to support a minor league team and a major league team….as much as it pains me to say it, it is Portland.
Seattle, sorry, we didn’t have even 10k for a minor league team. We were all there, and we were all great, but not enough of us.
So let me get this straight
MLS will still be around in 25 years and will not be successful enough so they want to change it.
OR
MLS will be around and be massively successful and they still want to change it ?
Neither sound logical to me.
Love the idea but don't know that it can happen at this point
We just don’t have enough of the best players in the world and won’t for many many years.
I’ve thought of something in the past, though. What about Relegation/Promotion in the NBA? I agree with some that America probably wouldn’t allow it to happen but I think it’d be great. Use the NBDL as a 2nd division and have relegation/promotion for it. There are plenty of NBDL teams in good sized cities like Des Moines, Reno, Albequerque, and Austin. Then you take into account big cities that don’t have teams but could support them: Seattle, Kansas City, San Diego and that is just to name a few. Move some of the teams in real small areas that don’t have good arenas to these cities and you’ve got a 2nd division in some major cities.
I say this could work because unlike Soccer, the U.S has the best players in the world and the best players from all over the world come here to play basketball. Then also think about all the great college basketball players that leave here to go play in Europe for more money. With a 2nd division, this might not happen as much.
It would probably never happen, but I think relegation/promotion in the NBA would be awesome.
by I need more Esteban on Apr 24, 2010 7:35 AM PDT reply actions
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