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Quick Review: Sounders lose to Toronto FC by two goals (now with quotes)

In a match that saw a non-traditional lineup with 4 Central Midfielders on the pitch and two players who are small quick wide/withdrawn types there is a significant debate within the gamethread as to where blame lies in this loss to the Reds (who wore white). The keys to the game I posted this morning were about Seattle having patience, testing the defensive third of Toronto and giving Ljungberg control of the match.

Alll of these were accomplished. And yet Seattle lost. They didn't lose because of the play of the 6 non-traditional starters, but because of two poor plays by Alonso and Marshall and Brad Evans inability to convert on several great passes that he couldn't finish.

Star-divide

Seattle put much more pressure on Stefan Frei than Toronto did on Kasey Keller. The Rave Green had 11 shots and 7 corners to 5 and 5. There were a few key misses, but most of all it was Seattle players starting fast breaks for Toronto that caused the loss.

Osvaldo Alonso made a rare error deep in his own territory, but more disturbing was that Tyrone Marshall continued his stretch of poor passing to start a break by TFC.

Sigi was plagued with injuries and fatigue for this match. He had to do something different. Unable to start and go 90 were Mike Fucito, Pat Noonan, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado due to injury and Steve Zakuani and Fredy Montero due to fitness.

He made the choice to got with a possession lineup, a lineup and formation that did what it could, except for finishing. Because this could have been a 3-2 match and been a fair result.

In the past we've discussed if Tactics (Coaching), Talent (General Manager) or Chemistry (yeah, that) were to blame. Today it was purely a few players with a few mistakes.

 

Box Score
Scoring Summary:
TOR - De Rosario 58
TOR - White (De Rosario) 76

Toronto FC: Stefan Frei, Maksim Usanov, Raivis Hscanovics, Adrian Cann, Nana Attakora, Julian de Guzman, Martin Saric, Nick LaBrocca (Sam Cronin 74), Dwayne De Rosario (Gabe Gala 79), Chad Barrett (Dan Gargan 62), O'Brian White.
Substitutes Not Used: Jon Conway, Nick Garcia, Ty Harden, Jacob Peterson.

TOTAL SHOTS: 5; SHOTS ON GOAL: 3; FOULS: 13; OFFSIDES: 0; CORNER KICKS: 5; SAVES: 4.

Seattle Sounders FC:  Kasey Keller, James Riley (David Estrada 79), Patrick Ianni, Tyrone Marshall, Tyson Wahl, Sanna Nyassi (Steve Zakuani 60), Osvaldo Alonso, Peter Vagenas, Nathan Sturgis (Fredy Montero 71), Brad Evans, Freddie Ljungberg.
Substitutes Not Used: Terry Boss, Roger Levesque, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado, Leo Gonzalez.

TOTAL SHOTS: 11; SHOTS ON GOAL: 4; FOULS: 7; OFFSIDES: 2; CORNER KICKS: 7; SAVES: 1.

Misconduct Summary:
TOR - Martin Saric 14
TOR - Maksim Usanov 17
TOR - Adrian Cann 52

 

Referee: Jorge Gonzalez

Referee's Assistants: Nate Clement; Craig Lowry

4th Official: Silviu Petrescu

Attendance: 18,394

Time of Game: 1:50

Weather: Rainy

 

QUOTES

Sigi Schmid – Sounders FC Head Coach
(On the match . . .) “I thought we played well in the first half. I thought we had more of the game. I thought we created some good chances. We had Evans’ chance in the first half. We had Sturgis in the second half. We had Evans in, as well. He probably makes a great save late in the game. I was not displeased with the guys who played. I thought we were doing all right and were pretty comfortable and then we made a mistake at the back and that was a shot of adrenaline for Toronto and we made another mistake and then after that Toronto dominated the game for the last 20 minutes.”
(On Julian Guzman’s play . . .) “Julian’s a good player. He knows how to control the ball and they played differently with him playing on the outside, tucking in. But as I said, I thought he played well and did some good things, until the goal came, in the first 65 minutes. So for the first 65 minutes we weren’t too concerned.”

Steve Zakuani – Sounders FC Midfielder
(On what he thought the difference was today . . .) “We just gave up two bad goals. We had enough chances to score maybe three or four, maybe five, and then we just made too many mistakes and they punished us. I don’t think they were two goals better than us. We just made two mistakes and they scored.”

Freddie Ljungberg – Sounders FC Forward/Midfielder
(On the match . . .) “I think this was the best we played all year. We played amazing, especially the first half. Like we said in here, we all played very, very well. Sometimes unfortunately you make mistakes and we did two personal mistakes. It happens to everybody but it killed the game for us and that’s how they won the game. When you give up mistakes like that you get punished.”

(On rotating line . . .) “It’s of course strange and a new experience for my career but I can talk about today and I think we played amazingly well. We played a good passing game and we got criticized a little bit by fans at home and in general that we weren’t playing that well. But today I was impressed by the guys and how we played and all the credit for that and that’s why it’s so hard to take why we didn’t get all the points.”


Preki – Toronto FC Head Coach
(On the match . . .) “Absolutely happy with the effort. I thought the whole group worked real hard today. I thought first half we were pretty decent and at the moment I can see the best football we’ve had so far this year. I think that we want to do that every day in training and every game if we can. Obviously second half I wasn’t really happy the way we started the second half. We gave Seattle a chance and Stefan made two important saves for us to keep us in. Dwayne makes a good play on a goal and after we get a second on a good breakaway and at times in the second half we played some good football.”

(On what his approach is for the upcoming Nutrilite game . . .) “It’s an important game. Our approach is we’ve got to go and win the game. That’s our approach every game. Friendlies, league games, CONCACAF games, all games are the same when we step on the field. It’s all about commitment to be there for a result.”

Stefan Frei – Toronto FC Goalkeeper
(On the team’s organization at the back . . .) “Yes. It’s getting a little bit better. I couldn’t really help them much today with my voice but I feel we’re organized pretty well. The first half they picked the holes between our guys to make their runs in and I think the guys are communicating better. I think one thing that has changed that is great is that their air balls that they’re getting. Everything that they throw at us I think we’re getting it and putting it away so it’s not laying in front of our goal and that helps a lot.”

Julian De Guzman – Toronto FC Midfeilder
(On his confidence . . .) “I felt a lot more confident. I mean, I think everyone felt a lot more confident. Coming off of an unfortunate result against Colorado, apart from a few little mistakes I think everyone was able to gel and we spent an entire week going over a couple of things going into Seattle and we were able to demonstrate that this was our best performance of the season.”

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Unfortunately

What makes this game even more frustrating is that I don’t think we learned much other than maybe we’re not as deep in the middle and back as we thought we were. We can quibble with the lineup choices (I’d have liked to see Estrada up top instead of Evans and would have really liked to see Vagenas on the bench), but ultimately we thought depth was a strength. Maybe it’s not. Still, the mistakes that ultimately cost us the game were by players that usually start (Alonso, Marshall and Evans). None of those guys are getting benched.

Best thing we can do, probably, is forget about this game and focus on getting ourselves together for Columbus.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 25, 2010 2:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Except that we are as deep as we thought

Ianni, Wahl, Sturgis, and Nyassi all put in solid performances.

There’s not really two much analysis to be done on this one. A couple guys screwed up royally, and we dropped this game. Over and done, and there’s not really anything to be fixed here.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which I guess means

We’re only left with not learning much.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 25, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

20% into the season and Seattle looks like a team that won’t be near the Shield, but should get in the Playoffs

Which means that with one good 4 game run they could have a single trophy, and with two (US Open Cup) could get 2 Major trophies.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

On the brightside

We could be Dallas, who has looked fine, but has just three points after five games. I’m having a hard time getting worked up.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 25, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, me either

I’ve thought we were a playoff team all along and we still look like a playoff team. Also, let’s not forget that the nature of MLS makes it hard to a team to go wire to wire, so there’s always the possibility of a late surge of points. It happened to several teams last year.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Except...
20% into the season and Seattle looks like a team that won’t be near the Shield, but should get in the Playoffs

…that our next three games are against Columbus, the Galaxy, and NYRB. If we fail to pick up at least five points in those games, we could be in a deep enough hole that even the playoffs will be a distant hope at best.

This team needs to get it together now, or it will be a long season indeed.

by regnaD kciN on Apr 25, 2010 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll look to see if that's true

but I doubt it is.

16 teams competing for 8 spots, no team is out only 8 matches into the 30 game season.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 26, 2010 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll do a little analysis

Ianni was solid as always

Wahl seems the most improved from last year’s form, making good decisions and distributing the ball well

Sturgis seems like he will be a great rotation on the wing once he is comfortable with where Ljungberg is on the field. I saw a quite a few missed opportunities on some early runs, but he was solid otherwise.

Nyassi could be good if he stops trying to copy Zak. He needs to beat guys by using his speed, not his dribbling.

by agtk on Apr 25, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

pretty simple, really

1) lack of finishing
2) horrendous defensive mistakes

This wasn’t a systemic failure, it was a failure of individuals to rise up and get it done, and that’s why this is so disappointing.

Sounders had plenty of scoring chances, and Toronto only scored off of Sounder’s assists…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Apr 25, 2010 2:54 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

and 3)

the inability to make simple passes happen, though mostly in the second half, after the first goal

by chrisperry1983 on Apr 25, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

All I'm saying...

… is that I don’t think this particular line-up is going to be of much use later on in the season. When you take out two of your best scorers, you’re going to see fewer successful chances. And when you take two of your best defenders out, you’re going to see more mistakes on defense. It’s just that simple. One or two different players on either offense or defense could have made the difference for the draw or win. Yeah, it sucks to have to play a game on the road three days later after a lousy draw. But you step up and play. I don’t know whether all the players kept out were a necessity or not, but I honestly think we would have had a better chance with a different line-up, that’s all.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 2:54 PM PDT reply actions  

How do you not get this already?

Zakuani is barely fit to play one game, let alone a double. Montero is in no way going to play back to back 90s either.

The lineup wasn’t at fault. They controlled possession and created chances for much of the game. If you’re going to argue that Marshall and Alonso, who both gave up easy goals, shouldn’t have been in there…good luck.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's arguing the opposite

That somehow, magically, having Hurtado and Gonzalez on the field would have prevented the mistakes.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don’t be an ass. What I’m saying is that when you have all your starting defenders in there, that kind of a clearance at that moment may never have needed to take place, that’s all.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

But Alonso makes those kinds of clearances all the time

No one was out of position, he just screwed it up big time. Let me ask you this, if he’d made that kind of mistake with the regular lineup in place, would you be blaming the lineup?

You need to come up with specific evidence why in these specific instances not having those defensive players caused the mistakes and you haven’t done that.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m just saying that the line-up has part of the blame, that’s all. Whether due to fatigue/injury, or by choice, this line-up was used today. I say that with a different line-up, closer to our traditional line-up I feel we would have had a better chance, maybe simply by scoring earlier in the game. That’s all.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, so lets say they were all healthy, and that this was a game 7 days later. Would you still have a line-up like that? How can you say that the line-up wouldn’t have made a difference? Even if there’s a viable reason you have a line-up like this one, it still means that the line-up is part of the reason for the loss. You blame fatigue, injuries etc. which lead to the line-up.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Magic

You want magic spray that heals injuries and instantly gets tired players healthy.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can't think of a more damning comment...
Zakuani is barely fit to play one game

If StevieZ is that out-of-condition, what the hell is he doing on an MLS starting 11?

by regnaD kciN on Apr 25, 2010 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Probably the same thing that Montero and Ljungberg are

Because they don’t play a full 90 in a majority of their games either.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 26, 2010 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

With the following 5 players unable to start

Hurtado, Montero, Zakuani, Fucito and Noonan

Who do you start?

You didn’t like it. We get that.

WHAT DO YOU DO?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

So none of those players were able to start?? Maybe I’m wrong but were Hurtado, Montero, Gonzalez, and Zaquani on either the doubtfull or probable lists??

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hurtado was

and Zakuani has NEVER gone back to back 90
Montero is regularly poor after 60 minutes of a single match.
Gonzalez not starting was the only real surprise.

Noonan and Fucito would have started today if healthy. This match was always expected to not have the normal XI.

Again, who would you have started instead? Levesque has missed 3 sitters already this year.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

There you go, I would have had Gonzalez in there instead. Maybe also Hurtado. Zakuani could have been in there along with Montero at the start, and we could have put in fresh legs later. There were a lot of options, with our own healthy, albeit fatigued starters. That’s all I’m saying. Sigi tried a different “invigorated” starting line-up as described on the home website. I’m just saying it didn’t work today, didn’t produce goals.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hurtado couldn't start

seriously

It wasn’t an option.

If Zakuani and Montero started they would have been out at the half. When did those goals get scored?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

But imagine if we would have scored in the first half, that’s all. Maybe one or two of all those chances could have found the back of the net. 1-0 at the half, and it’s a completely different game.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you wouldn't have started Evans?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

and your idea would have used up two subs at the half

Is that a winning strategy?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

We can imagine all we want

But we don’t know if the game would have been different with different starters. The the gulf in quality isn’t so huge between our regular starters and our rotationals. It’s not like our regular forward is Zlatan Ibrahimovic and we moved Brad Evans in his place.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Of course I would have started Evans, just not at that position. Seriously, you can trash my comments all you want, but I just didn’t like the line-up, ok? For whatever reason… and those of you trying to say that this line-up is suitable alternative to our normal rotation, well, maybe you’re just happy with our standard starters. I still think they can win, and they can come through. That’s all. They did the best they could today, but it still didn’t produce a win or a draw. Based on two single mistakes which could have happened to anybody in the league. If you score enough, you can over come those mistakes. I just don’t think this particular line-up will produce more goals than our regular one.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're arguing using a regular lineup

We’re all saying that’s impossible. This isn’t a game where we can just trot out the normal starters and watch them work. Was the lineup ideal? No. Given the circumstances it was close to the best we could do.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

What I’m saying is that in the previous thread some people were saying they wouldn’t mind seeing this kind of line-up regularly, when everyone is fresh/healthy. I disagreed with that. So we couldn’t do anything different with this line-up, I at least think we could have started Gonzalez. There, that’s one difference. Why did he have to sit? There are 11 people out there, and they can all be changed, but there’s a reason we have starters. But our standard line-up should not change significantly… who else would you have in there versus our regular starters? who do you want replaced as a starter?

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Find the poster that said they wouldnt' mind this lineup

People only didn’t mind it in these circumstances.

This is a typical MLS quality lineup for the round of 16 in the Open Cup, and the prelims of the CCL.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

just to quote one:

I wouldn’t mind this lineup again, actually We produced some quality chances out of this, and we avoided punt and pray, which is something this team falls back on way too much. I’d sit Vagenas and put Evans back into central mid, and then scour the world for a forward who could finish.
by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 2:01 PM PDT

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Purely due to circumstance

and Ljungberg agrees with him

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, so what is your preferred line-up? For Columbus, who would you have? Ljungberg did great today, but a number of his passes to score were wasted away by the recipient.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

My preferred lineup for today, or for Columbus?

Those are VERY different.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just mean in general, for Columbus. Cause there may be people on here, including yourself for all I know, who feel that some of the starters sitting today, should be sitting for that game. I just wonder how many would prefer a line-up like today’s on a more regular basis. Because I obviously don’t like it, but some out there may prefer it, or may enjoy it for a change.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

depth char

i will update my impression of the current depth chart this week. I will assume all ate healthy and fully fit in a 4-2-3-1 and go four deep.

Except at CB I will go six deep because it is really two people. It won’t surprise anyone really.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

fair enough, looking forward to your analysis!

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

What I’m saying is that Ljunberg I’m sure prefers the regular starting line-up, and that he felt that those that had to come in today did well, but I don’t think he would have this be a regular thing.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be so sure about that

He’s never meshed well with Montero.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you think he prefers Montero on the bench? They may still be finding a way to mesh, but it doesn’t mean he doesn’t appreciate having him there.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm saying he'd be open to it

If Montero lost his starting spot to someone he could work better with, Ljungberg would have no problem with that.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think that if Ljungberg got to pick his side

pickup game style, that Montero would be one of the last guys he picks.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm.

I think he’d pick him early, just so the other team wouldn’t get him.

by Cornchops on Apr 25, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think his post-game comments...

…about “how well we played” are either a) a message to F17, or b) a sign Freddie has taken one-too-many blows to the head.

by regnaD kciN on Apr 25, 2010 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

The four starters who sat today, who would you sit vs. Columbus? Who would you have them replace? It’s an interesting question, because we have had some good playing by some of the bench in a starting role…

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm comfortable with Ianni in there any time

He’s not as experienced, but he has great qualities and can play more of a libero role, which neither Hurtado or Marshall can do.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

well, I’ve already disagreed below, but I feel Hurtado and Marshall are more important to our defense. It’s typically where we stand out, and having either of them out to give our attack some kind of boost with Ianni is not a suitable tradeoff in my opinion.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

For a team that's struggled to score

An offensive boost would be welcome. A central defender that can come out of defense to spark an attack can be a very potent weapon. If you ever see Lucio play for Brazil, his runs out of defense can unbalance opponents and suddenly leave them undermanned on defense. It’s something you have to judge the right moment on, but it can be extremely effective at opening teams up.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think that Gonzalez does that rather well myself. I can see the advantage of having that offensive boost, but you have to balance it with losing the respective boost on defense.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gonzalez is a wing back, not a centre back

Neither Hurtado or Marshall can run the field as a centre back. On the other hand, Ianni has handled himself quite well on the defensive end and also can be apart of the attack at times. Not saying he’s a regular starter, but he provides a very nice change of pace.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

A nice change of pace, but not a regular starter, that’s all I’m saying too.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

It really depends on the formation we want to run

And the team we’re playing against. It’s just not as simple as trotting the same XI out every game. Ianni can create matchup hell for a lot of teams.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

And I Ianni isn’t too far below either Marshall or Hurtado on his defensive skills either.

I think Marshall and Hurtado have a great understanding with each other, so I wouldn’t disrupt that just casually, but if there were a team that would be especially vulnerable to runs up the middle, then I’d put Ianni in to provide that threat every once in a while. Which of Marshall or Hurtado sits, if they’re both healthy, would depend on what the opponent was like.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hwingbacks are not central defenders ti

Ianni can be a Libero or Upback. Maybe Sturgis, but in this league that ability is rare. Opara and Cameron are it.

A 4-2-3-1 is the perfect formation to play that kind of attack too.

Ianni is also just a much more skilled passer than Marshall.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it's a nice problem to have...

Last year our starting XI was our starting XI (barring injury), esp. in July after Leo joined us. It didn’t matter the tactics Sigi would have wanted to use, those 11 were obviously the best players and needed to be used.
After a year in the League, our “B” team has a bit more seasoning. When Sigi thinks he needs to play more of a defensive/holding lineup he’s able to now. True it didn’t work out as well as we’d hoped (but if we could magically change 90 seconds of 187 minutes, we’d have 6 points). But last year, that wasn’t even an option.
Also, for an average height player, Ianni is really good in the air. True, I’d like him to score more than he misses. But every time he’s nailing a header (just wide), I’m wondering “How is he so open?”

by Sobchak on Apr 26, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll stand by that fully

Our starters are starters for a reason, but the rotationals are good players as well and they did pretty well this game. Ianni, for example, brought his usual energy and he contributes more to the attack than either Hurtado or Marshall. Nyassi, too, brings more pure speed than almost anyone else. Without the mistakes, we’d probably have seen a 0-0 draw, which would have been disappointing but fair. And before the mistake, the game was trending the Sounders way. So, yeah, this lineup isn’t that bad, and they played well for about 60 minutes.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

See, I would argue that without the mistakes, a closer line-up would have come away with the wins. I don’t feel this line-up in particular gives us a better chance to score. I don’t feel Ianni would be an improvement over Hurtado or Marshall. And given less fatigue, having Montero and Zaquani in with Evans still in but not far forward, give us a better chance at scoring.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't like the lineup. Check.

That’s been coming through loud and clear.

But the question is, even if the regular line is available, how does that prevent this result. Remember, our regular line up has been blanked before. Remember New York? So if it’s possible that our regular starters are blanked, and it was regular starters who screwed up to give away the goals, then our regular lineup is clearly no guarantee of victory.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

of course its not a guarantee, but it could offer a better result. To say the line-up had no effect on the outcome is as ludicrous as saying it was the only thing that effected the outcome!

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not when there are quotes

Sigi

I thought we were doing all right and were pretty comfortable and then we made a mistake at the back and that was a shot of adrenaline for Toronto and we made another mistake and then after that Toronto dominated the game for the last 20 minutes

Zakuani
we just made too many mistakes and they punished us. I don’t think they were two goals better than us. We just made two mistakes and they scored

Ljungberg
I think this was the best we played all year. We played amazing, especially the first half. Like we said in here, we all played very, very well. Sometimes unfortunately you make mistakes and we did two personal mistakes. It happens to everybody but it killed the game for us and that’s how they won the game. When you give up mistakes like that you get punished
It’s of course strange and a new experience for my career but I can talk about today and I think we played amazingly well. We played a good passing game and we got criticized a little bit by fans at home and in general that we weren’t playing that well. But today I was impressed by the guys and how we played and all the credit for that and that’s why it’s so hard to take why we didn’t get all the points

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ljungberg is exactly right

If the Sounders consistently passed like they did in the first half, we’d be a much more dangerous team.

Soccer can be bizarre. Sometimes you play like crap and win, like we did against KC, and sometimes you play really well and lose.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

but despite that passing, we didn’t wind up finishing. That’s been a problem all along. I don’t think this line-up improved on the finishing in any way.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

So who would you have in there at finishing instead of our regular line-up? Do you truly feel that Evans is better at top?

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

You still aren't getting that this was a lineup born out of necessity

Like CarlosT said, maybe Estrada up top.

With the hand we were dealt today, with Montero, Zakuani, and Fucito all shelved, there wasn’t much we could do.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

no I’ve gotten that, I’ve had it from the beginning. For whatever reason, I don’t think that this line-up, with people healthy, is a good alternative. I’m just trying to see who wants who out, and for what reason. i.e. CarlosT feels that Ianni might be better to have regular than Hurtado or Marshall, and I disagreed.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

noonan also out

The only other choices at top today were Levesque and Estrada. Off form vs. Passer not scorer

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually

I think they’ve (overall – not every game, but as a trend) been a lot better this season. Evans made great runs, but just doesn’t have finishing ability as a striker. I really didn’t understand the decision not to play Montero – guys like Alonso and Marshall played and you can’t argue that in the course of a match they don’t work twice as hard and run twice as much as Montero does. With a team that has really struggled to finish, I think you need to have at least one proven finisher at striker or on the wing.

That one issue aside, I agree with Ljungberg that this was probably the best the squad has played this season so far, which is why the lack of a result against a TFC squad of very questionable quality stings. Wahl and Ianni were excellent out there and I liked Sturgis, too. I think the depth is great except up front (and that’ll get better once the upteen bajillion injuries there get healed).

by Nevtelen on Apr 25, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is one lineup change I'd like to have seen

What ever could have been done to keep Vagenas off the field would have been a good idea. I’m not sure exactly how, maybe keep Evans in midfield and put Estrada up in attack. In a game when I thought were were passing fairly well, Vagenas as a huge glaring exception.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Vagenas probably had the 4th worst game

and Estrada hasn’t looked bad.

I may be willing to call him a potential Rotational at this point.

I actually think the Sounders are pretty deep at this point. Would Dallas or TFC be happy with Seattle’s 12-18 players as starters? probably.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, and a second on forgetting this game

Because “don’t screw up” is something we know already.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 2:59 PM PDT reply actions  

Go ahead and make it a third

The reserves looked fine during the game. Two dumb mistakes put the game to bed. Oh well, move on.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

One other thing overshadowed by the blunders

This ref: not atrocious. The yellow to Nyassi for being faster than expected was stupid, but otherwise, fairly well called.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:07 PM PDT reply actions  

If he referees every game I'm thrilled

He was good. Not great. But good.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, not too many lousy calls or anything… at least he let them play. Definitely can’t blame him on this one.

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let them play, but didn't ignore fouls

Like Dave said, if he referees every game, I’m ecstatic.

by CarlosT on Apr 25, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

What is the depth like at Alonso's postion?

He plays a defensive mid role, right? so would his depth be Ianni/Wahl or a midfielder, like Vagenas/Evans?

He’s played every game so well, If he gets injured or needs a break, does the formation change or do we have someone who can help?

by Murk on Apr 25, 2010 6:09 PM PDT reply actions  

Just to be clear

I’m not saying “REPLACE HIM!!!” after one goof, I’m just curious as to our depth at his position in particular.

by Murk on Apr 25, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

CDM

Alonso-Vagenas-Sturgis-Ianni-Evans

Roughly

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

We've also played a total of one game without Alonso in the lineup

I had to go look it up because I couldn’t remember him ever sitting.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

that's got to be in league play

because IIRC Ianni got time at CDM during the Open Cup

also, there were a few matches when Alonso played a more central role and Vagenas played the defensive one.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, league play I meant

The names you listed above were the names that popped into my head as replacements for him during open cup play, or when Evans/other players were out and the formations changed.

Many of these questions about depth and who plays were should have clearer answers when cup play starts, as well.

by Brian Floyd on Apr 25, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Reserve matches, scrimmages and health come into effect as well

Depth charts always move

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

This game made me miss the good old days

when we gave away the lead at the last second and salvaged road points.

Some thoughts:

  • I think defensive miscues cost us both of the games this trip. Hurtado had the chance for the easy clearance vs. Dallas, there was miscommunication with Keller, and the result was the first PK. Just clear it and that collision never happens. Then of course, this game had the double-whammy, the Alonso non-clearance and the Marshall assist.
  • We played wonderfully the first half (without finishing, of course), and as soon as they scored, all of a sudden TFC woke up. From the goal on, we were outplayed. They could taste victory over a quality side, and they wanted it bad.
  • Sucks to be the team that gets TFC off the snide. Who shall we give a confidence boost to next?
  • I hate that DeRo body wobble whatever-it-is.

Our defense was a strength last year; it earned us a lot of points when we had trouble finishing. If our defense can’t hold, and we still can’t finish, we might slip a little.

I’m not worried. Yet.

by Cornchops on Apr 25, 2010 6:46 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Agreed on most points

but with 8 points out of six matches and the next two vs LA and C-bus (at home, where, oddly this team doesn’t play as well for whatever reason), I’m beginning to get worried. Yes, there is lots of time in the season and we had a couple of pretty bad stretches last season, too, and still did well enough but if this is a bad stretch now, the team can’t afford another one like last season in July/August (or any other time for that matter).

by Nevtelen on Apr 25, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

8th best record by points at home

3rd best by Goal Differential

3rd best by points on Road
5th by Goal Differential

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 25, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not just the Galaxy and Crew...

…but the next match against the Red Bulls in their new home. Notice how NY has been doing this season?

As I said before, unless we regroup right away, this season could get real ugly real fast.

by regnaD kciN on Apr 26, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

A little late now, but here's what the other side thought of our line-up today...

… hate to use what toronto thought of our line-up scheme as part of my original argument, but it shows they at least took it to mean we thought we could beat them with 4 of our starters on the bench most of the game…

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2010/04/25/13718366.html

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 10:55 PM PDT reply actions  

regardless of the line-ups though, I’m sure we’re all hoping for a much better performance these next two weeks, against two powerhouse teams, and all the way throughout the season!

by SkycatF14 on Apr 25, 2010 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Retroactivity came up earlier

But there is no way to know how a game would have changed if you could retroactively place players in there. For all we know, with having Hurtado in the game at the moment Alonso made his miss might not have mattered anyways. Alonso very well may still have been the one to take the kick and still might have missed it. Though in all reality not a single thing about the game would have been the same simply because the first different pass would have already changed the game. Even had Boss started instead for the first game there would have been a drastic difference. Maybe with Boss’ inexperience he would have backed off that ball that led to the first PK and then Keller would have been guaranteed 100% strength against TFC. There is no way to know.

I honestly think that news article was fairly ignorant of all that was going on. It made it seem that Seattle was happy about doing so well with so many reserves on the field where almost any Sounders fan can tell you it was the fluidity of the play that made us happy (which is something that has been lacking even with our starters).

While the article does acknowledge the fact that the Sounders played 2 games in 4 days, it plays it off as not such a big deal by saying “after Sunday’s lineup” that it was clear who the Sounders thought was a bigger threat. Now had it been truly clear it would have been apparent by Thursday, not Sunday. Looking back on this game and seeing the physical beating some of our players took do you think those starters would have lasted long (and look how many injuries we have already)?

I am willing to admit that Sigi clearly saw FCD as the team that needed the stronger team though and I’d have to agree with him on that. Looking at the statistics before the two games occurred FCD had 2 points in 3 games with a -1 GD against NYRB, Crew, and the Dynamo. While TFC had 3 points in 4 games with a -6 GD against the Crew, Revo, Union, and Rapids. Looking at those stats I’d have made most of the decisions Sigi made. FCD, to me, looks like the much harder team to break.

by Derek R on Apr 26, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

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