Upcoming Issues to Tackle at Sounder at Heart
First big ups to Jeremiah for holding down the fort as I was without the internet for more than 24 hours. Posting from a smart phone is fine for snippets, but posting the type of thing I like to post from a phone is nearly impossible. Thank you for your patience. It did give me the opportunity to take a few steps back and just think, without posting.
So here's a list of things I am going to explore in the next few days on top of our normal news, analysis, etc.
I want to establish a bit of baseline on the offensive issues on the club. Below the jump I will be looking at the players competing for the that spot as the 11th starter, I will be assuming a 4-2-1-3 with the largest need being for the 3rd forward. Evans will appear on this list.
Second, I want to establish a trendline of play for the season based on performance by half. Just a simple scale which would represent that an average MLS side would finish with a 10-10-10 record.
Third, we will look at the offensive players that were available to an MLS side this past off season and see whether they would be an improvement over the players on the roster at this time.
Fourth, we will look at teams with high churn and see how they are doing as compared to teams that had a more stable approach. Is there any evidence that these two techniques have a significant difference? I have asserted that the Sounders offense would improve through regression and that a majority of teams in MLS would swap there five best offensive players for the Sounders straight-up. I still feel that is true, but let's look at the numbers again.
Fifth, and I think this is the simplest issue we'll look at the differing skill sets of Ianni and Marshall. This will explore who should start and why.
Lastly, I would remind everyone that in Major League Soccer every single team has significant holes. The Sounders are not alone in this. Ok, maybe the Galaxy don't have a significant hole, but every other team does. Having a complete side for an entire season in MLS is unheard of, and to hold Sounders management to that standard ignores issues with signability, salary cap and roster restrictions. Twenty-one year old players with large upside don't stay in the league for 5 or more years. They move on, nearly always. Landon Donovan is a huge exception, but the fact is that players with long careers in the league are average players, and good players leave.
Now, onto the baseline for the players who were on the roster to start the season and competing for the spot at the Right Wing in either the Arrow or the 4-3-3.
First let's look at each of the possibilities that were on the roster as training camp closed. These were the options as the seasson started and will be our baseline as we continue to look later at who would have been better, and available to the Sounders.
For the players from college I have used their entire careers in college and had to estimate minutes played based on starts and appearences. For Levesque and Nyassi I used USL Sounders performance where appropriate (thanks to Seattle Pitch). For Montano and Nyassi their play prior to coming to the USA was not included as the statistics are even less available.
|
Player |
Goals |
Assists |
Minutes |
PP90 |
3yr PP90 |
|
Brad Evans |
1 |
1 |
606 |
0.45 |
0.30 |
|
Nate Jaqua |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0.00 |
1.10 |
|
Pat Noonan |
0 |
0 |
215 |
0.00 |
0.75 |
|
Roger Levesque |
0 |
0 |
248 |
0.00 |
0.70 |
|
Mike Fucito |
1 |
0 |
19 |
9.47 |
1.89 |
|
David Estrada |
0 |
0 |
88 |
0.00 |
1.05 |
|
Miguel Montano |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0.00 |
0.00 |
|
Sanna Nyassi |
0 |
0 |
148 |
0.00 |
1.43 |
What we notice here is that of course this season's snapshot is small, and that only Jaqua has a solid bit of MLS experience that indicates that he could be the answer. In fact if he was healthy he would be the 11th starter, and the discussion would be very different. With those small sample sets though we need to also take into account some scouting type data.
|
Player |
Age |
Trend |
IQ |
Technique |
Physique |
|
Brad Evans |
Peak |
stable |
8 |
5 |
5 |
|
Nate Jaqua |
Past Peak |
up |
7 |
4 |
6 |
|
Pat Noonan |
Past Peak |
down |
6 |
6 |
5 |
|
Roger Levesque |
Past Peak |
down |
6 |
5 |
5 |
|
Mike Fucito |
Pre-Peak |
up |
6 |
6 |
7 |
|
David Estrada |
Pre-Peak |
up |
4 |
7 |
7 |
|
Miguel Montano |
Development |
unknown |
4 |
8 |
7 |
|
Sanna Nyassi |
Pre-Peak |
unknown |
4 |
5 |
8 |
Now obviously these are my estimates. The tools borrow from www.3four3.combut use the 5 as the center point of an MLS starter. I'm willing to discuss these as I think that scouting by masses is more effective than a singular look, but think that these are reasonable, if a little high across the board. Physique includes height, strength and speed, but is also the least important of these tools, probably half as much as each of the others. To accurately reflect Sigi and the team's thinking I may have needed to slot in a "veteraness" ability, but I wouldn't find that useful in the long term.
A completely heathy set of offensive players would likely not have placed the Sounders in the sad state they are in concerning the standings. Randomly scattering just two more goals throughout the games played this season would have wound up with more four or more points easily, and the discussion shifts. The focus would not be on Seattle being a team in need of help just to make the playoffs, but a team with a bright future that will make a late season push for a trophy. Just two goals would be the difference.
But injuries struck this team, and fairly hard. With both Jaqua and Fucito out for significant periods of time. Noonan seems plagued with nagging injuries that hamper the team's ability to use him as a full time player. Roger Levesque is a player that is "off form" at this time, in fact he had two missed sitters that would have given the Sounders exactly those two goals himself.
The baseline entering the season was not one that required panic. The baseline was one that enabled the Sounders to carry a few players that were clearly for depth and development while the veterans on the club enabled the offense to regress to improvement. I know this seems counter-intuitive, but the Sounders offense as a whole last year did under-perform its level of talent.
If we just focus on the offense right now, this team likely should be in the second tier of teams alongside the Dynamo, TFC, San Jose and Salt Lake. It isn't there, and a shift clearly needs to be made. That shift almost certainly involves more than just settling on the 11th starter, it likely requires getting a certain center forward to perform at his own talent level.
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this quote from Sigi says a lot
“Guys have to be willing to sacrifice their body in the box. I don’t need six playmakers, I need somebody who is going to freakin’ get in the box who wants to score goals. That’s what we need.”
A little size would help here.
They don't have size and it isn't an option until Jaqua/nKufo are here
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I'm aware of the roster
rosters moves are always possible. we have alocation money, a second round pick next year,…, how long are you willing to wait?
i dont think size is a key to success
That and the unsigned players who could ne brought in before July 15 aren’t that good.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I take it you read Hanaeur's comments on trades
Which addresses your comment about available players.
I’m hoping you meant to say “not the only key”. In the past you’ve talked about getting taller players in the box for corners…during the run of play size in the middle makes the flanks more dangerous (crosses are more threatening) and forces defences to take covering flanks a little more serious…more spread on the defence…more holes.
by PeterJH on May 9, 2010 11:03 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, I read Adrian's comments
Previously he had said he wasn’t willing to overpay for talent by trading within the league. Now he thinks that overpaying may be the right idea. I don’t know why helping another team more than yourself is a good idea in such a small league.
Plenty of teams do well without target height. A great example would be a team called the LA Galaxy.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
You're kidding, right?
Buddle at 6’3", Omar Gonzalez at 6’5", Berhalter at 6’1". We don’t even have anyone presently over 6’ on our team who is active. Well, okay, Marshall at 6’2". All of those guys above (with the exception of Gonzalez, who is better than any of them) are established presences in the box. Btw, those are all legitimate target guys.
In addition, Todd Dunivant at 6’, Kirovsky at 6’1", Chris Klein (a nonfactor in the air, really) at 6’…. all of those players are as tall or taller than anyone on our team. Speaking of Klein, the only player in the world slower than Mssr. Montero, it was amusing watching him taunt and beat Leo time and time again down the wing on Saturday. I’ve never felt a finer sense of shame. The guy is, what, 58 years old? ; )
But you ARE right…. height isn’t everything, but if you don’t have it, you need to have the other pieces to play a quick passing game or bunker and counter. We don’t (at least right now). Also, there’s plenty of examples of guys who are 5’8" and are very legitimate in the air. So it isn’t just about tall.
You ain’t gonna like it, but I think bunker and counter is our only option until mid-July. Try to take a few, tie a few, and somehow stay alive in the race.
You're just a doom and gloom guy aren't ya?
Most of what i’ve heard out of you for most of the time has been solely negative. Yes we played horriedly awful against the galaxy. Yes maybe we haven’t performed well enough or scored enough. I think what came out on the field yesterday was not at all indicative of what the players we have can really do. If they played against LA like they did against Columbus last week this would have been a totally different story.
I still believe we have all the pieces we need to do well in this league and even beat the Galaxy. Maybe we do need new players, but only because they don’t care enough to try hard like they should to win a game. All the Sounders need is an attitude adjustment. Hopefully this disgusting lose will be that catalyst that unlocks the passion the players should have out on the field (especially in front of the amazing fans). This one game is the only one I think we look obscenely terrible. The rest of the games have just been a little off.
If they perform like they did this week next week then maybe I’ll start to get worried. The Galaxy game shouldn’t have been most than 2-0 we gave up that other two goals because no one (but Montano) was really trying anymore. Things need to change I fully believe that, but I don’t think we need anyone else. Put in the players that want to play. Ones like Montano, Estrada, Fucito, Nyassi those players that show they want to be out there even if they aren’t the best.
If NE can almost scrap out a win against Columbus with a team lacking almost everything the Sounders can do the same with their B team. Put the people out that will give everything they have and not stop after 70 minutes (Zakuani). We have people that want to play so we should use them. I really hope to see some great shake ups in the line up this week. After that we’ll see if anything else needs to be done. I don’t forsee anyone in the Sounders organization taking this lying down though.
You say negative
and I say critical. Big difference in my mind and, frankly, I think it’s the job of every fan to give it up when they do well and do poorly.
I agree…. there’s nothing to really learn from a 4-0 score from either end. If Keller stops that shot (and every goalie deserves a couple of those a season), perhaps the game goes an entirely different way. You can slip a piece of paper in the space between success and failure a lot of times. Paricularly in this league.
I DO believe that we have the talent to be okay still and I’ve stated that here in nearly every single post. You choose to see the criticism as somehow directed at you (or the fan in you), rather than the team. Without criticism there is NO improvement. I’ll point out that I’ve also been quick to praise and admit when I’m wrong. I didn’t think Fucito was the answer earlier this year, but many folks here clearly did. I didn’t even think he deserved a chance in a regular game until he’d gotten a couple Open Cup or CONCACAF games under his belt. I was totally wrong. Well, maybe not totally, but Fucito DID show enough to warrant another look. Cripes, now I’d give anything to have that option.
No, I’m not a doom and gloom guy, although it’s certainly feeling that way at the moment after Saturday. I’m just trying to be realistic. We’re not a very good team right now. There’s one of two ways to go…. either we continue to play “our” game and hope that the guys finally click or find another gear or Sigi finds a key. It’s risky, but has big rewards, because the team refinds itself and plays the way it can and should. Or we bunker, change our style, and just try to get points where we can, but also change the esential nature of the team. I’m conservative and believe that while N’kufo won’t be the hero so many think he will, I do believe he’ll make a difference in areas that aren’t obvious. Again, that space between success and failure.
Oh, and just so we’re clear, fair enough…. let’s give Sigi the rest of the month to right the ship. If it doesn’t work, it’s time to pick up points where we can and hope there’s help on the way. There, I agreed with you!
and, hey, who’s the doom and gloom guy, you want to shake up the whole line-up…. I was just thinking that a benching for Montero might light a fire under him and be a very good thing for his personal development, a scolding for Ljungberg (probably lost on him) might help team morale, particularly in-game, and some earlier substitutions for those who just aren’t giving it up for the team. I really do believe we have most of the pieces… some of them aren’t working at optimal levels, some perhaps don’t fit well.
Amen
Compare Buddle’s " I want a goal worse than life" to Montero’s “if it comes it comes” and one would think Montero doesn’t care at all. His goal total shows the result you would expect.
I don’t think you are saying LD is the only player left that could have left, but I would say there are plenty of players in MLS that could have left for other leagues. Only that ones that could make a LOT more have left.
Henry when he comes will show why. First you have to leave home, plus the Big European leagues are a joke. More money is more money, but playing away from hom in a league where the champion with a goal differential of +70 plays a team with a goal differential of -40 for all the marbles is not fun for anyone except the two teams that have a shot of winning.
Never really fun handing a championship over while losing 8-0 either, btw.
No, I'm saying that almost all good players leave
McBride
Holden
Clark
Adu
Johnson
Dempsey
Convey
Guzan
are just players to start looking at.
Even players that wouldn’t be MLS starters leave – Freeman, Miller, and more
No player much above average quality in MLS stays in the league for more than 5 years. The average career of an MLS player is only 3 years.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
An easy way to look at this
How many players in competition on the U.S. squad choose to stay here instead of going to europe? I have never heard about Brian Ching being wooed to Europe, nor Sacha Klejstan, nor Buddle. The top U.S. players are in MLS for a reason. That’s just the facts, and have never seen any empirical evidence otherwise..
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on May 9, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Klejstan was nearly transferred two years ago
Even marginal National teamers transfer.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Oh yeah
Forgot about that one. Which does prove the point, I think.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on May 9, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
It's probably also a visibility thing
European teams, especially those that are mid-table looking to rise higher, are always looking for bargains. American players could be those bargains, but the vast majority are never seen by any European managers.
Buddle would be a good fit for a lot of teams in Europe, but he’s not on their radar. Even if he were playing in the lower divisions of some Western European country, he’d get seen by managers and scouts here and there and would have some opportunities to move up.
I think it's more age
Buddle is up there age-wise and Europe isn’t really looking to bring in older American players, no matter what their form. There are tons of veterans in Europe who can be plugged into holes at a moment’s notice. The primary appeal of the American right now is that they are considered world-class athletes, who put in an honest days work (okay, not last Saturday), come at a bargain price, and are VERY willing to listen to their coaches.
Dave, while I agree that we’re still in a phase where the premium athlete’s move on to bigger and brighter lights, I also think that MLS is just on the cusp of turning that corner, with appealing franchises with stadiums, fans, money, and promise (Seattle, Philly, Vancouver, Portland, Montreal). It’ll happen drip-by-drip, initially, but I do believe we moving there…… at a snails pace.
Many
I think there are many, many more player that stay in MLS even though they are talented enough to play in Europe somewhere….than the ones that leave MLS.
The Shalrie Josephs of the MLS. Are there dime a dozen guys on every team, even starting on every team, sure, but I am just defending the MLS talent, which I think is VERY underrated. Not because it is so great, but because it is so maligned.
Josephs a strange case
I don’t get it with him. As far as I know, there’s never been even remote interest in him in Europe and yet you’d be hard pressed to find a better d-mid anywhere, anytime. You’d think that someone could use a player like him over there.
No there have been
He recieved offers that MLS rejected. Maybe he just wants to play here.
MLS REJECTED
Is not Joseph rejected.
The facts don’t match your opinion
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Facts ? Opinion ?
SAH, what are you talking about ? I stated the fact that MLS rejected the offer. I suggested maybe he wants to stay here. I offered no opinions at all.
Maybe he is out right now because he wants to leave. Not substance problem. Am I correct in my “opinion” now ? ;-)
Your opinion
“I think there are many, many more player that stay in MLS even though they are talented enough to play in Europe somewhere … than the ones that leave MLS.”
Whatever you think that is, it’s an opinion. It’s an opinion with zero empirical evidence. You definitely have the right to believe that, but there’s no information to back that up.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
by Jeremiah Oshan on May 10, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is what you said about Joseph
He recieved offers that MLS rejected. Maybe he just wants to play here.
Those two sentences are completely unrelated.
And your first sentence makes it seem like Joseph had control, he doesn’t.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
?
“He recieved offers that MLS rejected” in response to someone that said Europe had made no offers, makes it seem like he had control ?
I have been reading posts/commenting at this site for three-six months and I have enjoyed it, but I think I will move on now. Not really feeling very welcome. Sorry for anything I did to cause it to end on a bad note. Thanks for the three months.
Really?
I’m sorry you feel that way.
I just didn’t see evidence that Joseph chose to not play in Europe.
The list of Americans Abroad is over 100 deep. Most MLS Americans would choose to leave if given the opportunity.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I'd agree with that 100%
We’re talking better money, better visibility. Donovan was the rare bird.
by swansuite on May 10, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also better caliber of play and better development
Donovan made a noticeable improvement from just a couple months of playing in England. There’s no way to know now, but I think if he had been able to stick it out with Bayer Leverkusen back in the day, he would be an even better player than he is now.
But you’re getting a much more intense experience in Europe than you get in MLS. The game is faster, more technical, and every game means more. If you can handle that pressure, you can handle anything.
LA does have a hole this year.
It’s called the USMNT camp.
But I don’t know if that hole will be big enough. I don’t think there’s any stopping them.
Except, of course, the playoffs
If they happen to have a couple bad games at the wrong time, they could end up winning nothing.
They're almost certain to get the Shield
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
It's too early to say certain about anything
They could very well fall behind the pace with a few bad games. Donovan is going to the World Cup and if the US goes far, he’s going to miss a few games. Injuries can always strike, etc., etc.
CCL
If the Galaxy keep this up, I hope they dominate in the CCL (until they meet the Sounders, and yes, my fingers are crossed) in the fall. But then it’s next spring that really counts against the in-season Mexican teams.
Fan of: Cards, Blues, Yellow Jackets, Rams, Wolverines, and Blazers.
You really think that will happen?
RSL had a good run in the playoffs, but there wasn’t a clearly dominant team last year.
LA is taking down everyone, and doing it with ease. They’ve got 22 points already!
I know this is how you’ve come to terms with the playoffs. And you’re right. But this isn’t like Columbus last year. They took the Supporters’ Shield by just a few points. LA should lock it up early if they keep this up. This could be a record breaking year.
I know, I know…It won’t mean anything if they can’t win four games in October/November.
See above
Like every MLS team, they have a giant drop off in quality between the first and second teams. If Donovan, Buddle, or Ricketts get injured they could drop a lot of points in short order. Even without that, they could slump in the middle of the season, or have problems coping with the mix of domestic and international play.
I also think the Galaxy are not as hard to figure out as people have been making it out to be. It’s Donovan. He’s been the source of the vast majority of their goals, and if you take him out of the picture, the Galaxy are a pretty ordinary team.
Yes and No
Their D is pretty darn good too. This is a Seattle team that was not finishing chances versus not creating them.
Not saying that Seattle can’t get there, just saying LA is way better than Seattle right now. And Seattle is on par with the rest of the MLS, way worse than LA.
I'm not following
If we had been finishing, then their defense wouldn’t have looked as good.
LA is clicking now, but MLS is setup to prevent teams from making end to end dominant runs. Chances are they’ll have some injuries, some guys will have a bad run of form and suddenly the “rubberbanding” that MLS has built in will pull the pack back together.
Some things
- This is vindication for those who defended Jaqua last year. His numbers last year showed he was a valuable asset and his absence this year confirms it. Jaqua is exactly the kind of sacrifice his body in the box kind of player Sigi is talking about.
- Almost no team is out of playoff contention before September and late runs are always possible. Remember how close FC Dallas came after being so horrible for so long?
- At the moment, we’re trending towards the low thirties points-wise, but the picture changes drastically if we get different results over the next few games. If we win one and draw one, then we’re trending to 39 points, which is just outside the playoff zone, and if we win the next two, we’re trending toward 45, which is solidly in the playoffs.
Definitely agree with #1
While Jaqua clearly isn’t the “end all be all” to solve our problems, he is an asset to our team that is missed. He definitely is willing to sacrifice his body, as evident in two examples last year where he played games for awhile with bandages all over his head, and he’s willing to do it against the big defenders. It doesn’t matter that he may not have the best touch in the world with his feet, he in my opinion showed last year that he gives it his all and he battles. From what I’ve read today, he’ll be doing neutral training starting Tuesday, which is great news for the team.
I still have faith in this team for this season, definitely. In the end, I think we will be alright, but major changes need to come (and it seems like they should be.)
by SounderEvertonRomaFan on May 9, 2010 6:17 PM PDT reply actions
Jaqua
actually has great touch with his feet IIRC. It’s his headers that are bad. And he’s pretty slow, but if he’s a target-ish forward that won’t matter as much. I agree with the sentiment, though – he isn’t going to solve all the issues, but having Jaqua back will be a big help. I think the same can be said of Fucito (hopefully) when he gets back into it.
I picked the wrong weekend to move
Missed the game, without TV and internet till wednesday, all I knew is we lost 4-0. Someone texted me about the credit, but I thought he was joking. I didn’t even know Montano played! Guess I’ll have to keep up on things at work for a few days…
I don't know
From the perspective of a lot of people at the game, that weekend was the ideal weekend to move.
by CarlosT on May 10, 2010 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

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