SB Nation Seattle Editor's Pick
Trophies AND Friendlies, perspective on demand for CCL and USOC soccer
by ubelmann on Aug 15, 2010 2:27 PM PDT
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PrintHere's a different look at #TrophiesNotFriendlies. It takes a different look at things than I do, but agreeing with me has never been what determines if we promote to the frontpage.
There has been a lot of talk about whether the Sounders are placing enough value on competitive games as compared to friendlies, especially when it comes to which games are included with season ticket packages. I have my own opinion about how things should be done, but I have to say that I understand where the Sounders are coming from on this issue.
Champion's League
Let's take a look at, for instance, the demand for CONCACAF Champion's League soccer in Mexico. Mexico's Primera Division has something like roughly the 4th-best average attendance of any soccer league in the world. Every year, lots of Mexicans come out to support their local team in league play. Surely they come out in droves for Champion's League, too, right? Last year, here are their home attendance figures for CCL group play:
2009-10 group stage
Pachuca: 14K, 18K, 8K
Toluca: 10K, 15K, 10K
Cruz Azul: 9K, 3K, 3K
UNAM: 7K, 5K, 4K
12 games, zero sell-outs. Highest average attendance roughly 13K/game from Pachuca. That wasn't some kind of one-year blip, either. From the '08-'09 CCL group play stage:
2008-9 group stage
Cruz Azul: 7K, 5K, 4K
Universidad Nacional: 8K, 9K, 6K
Atlante: 13K, 13K, 4K
Santos Laguna: 8K, 12K, 16K
12 games, zero sell-outs. Highest average attendance roughly 12K/game from Santos Laguna.
What about MLS teams? Since Mexico's Primera Division is undeniably the highest-caliber league in North America, one could perhaps understand if the Mexican fans were to consider CCL games of lower quality than a typical league game. On the other hand, perhaps MLS fans have been intrigued by the idea of bringing in foreign teams for competitive games.
2009-10 group stage
Houston: 8K, 7K, 10K (17K/game in regular season)
DC: 9K, 5K, 3K (16K/game in regular season)
Columbus: 6K, 8K, 6K (14K/game in regular season)
2008-9 group stage
DC: 6K, 7K, 7K (20K/game in regular season)
Houston: 4K, 9K, 14K (18K/game in regular season)
15 games, zero sell-outs. Attendance way below regular season averages.
If you're looking for huge support for CCL group stage games in other countries, it's not there. Saprissa seems to get around 6K/game, which seems to line up pretty well with their league play attendance (I think, it's hard to find solid attendance sources for other CONCACAF leagues), but even then, that's pretty underwhelming given their 23K-seat stadium. What has attendance been like in the preliminary round in the past? Let's take last year as an example for what the Sounders were looking at going into this year:
2009 prelim attendance -- Host
20.8K -- Toronto
11.0K -- Firpo
10.0K -- Pachuca
8.0K -- DC
6.5K -- W Connection
6.5K -- New York Red Bulls
6.0K -- Puerto Rico Islanders
4.3K -- Cruz Azul
2.6K -- San Francisco
2.0K -- Olimpia
2.0K -- San Juan Jabloteh
1.9K -- Jalapa
1.5K -- Real Espana
1.2K -- Herediano
0.7K -- Liberia Mia
0.9K -- Arabe Unido
Median attendance was around 4-5K. Toronto did very well in attendance, which would be an argument in favor of the Sounders putting the Metapan game in the season ticket package. 9 of the 16 crowds would have fit in Starfire. I'm really glad that the Sounders weren't able to host CCL at Starfire, but if they only had demand for around 10K tickets for Metapan, I can see where it might be tempting to go with a crowded atmosphere at Starfire instead of a mostly-empty stadium in Qwest. As for actual 2010 prelim attendance, it was like so:
2010 prelim attendance -- Host
18.9K -- Toronto
17.2K -- Seattle Sounders
13.0K -- Puerto Rico
10.0K -- Santos Laguna
8.0K -- Xelaju
8.0K -- Motagua
6.8K -- LA Galaxy
5.0K -- Cruz Azul
4.2K -- FAS
2.5K -- Marathon
1.2K -- Tauro
1.0K -- Isidro Metapan
0.8K -- San Juan Jabloteh
0.7K -- San Francisco
0.5K -- Joe Public
0.3K -- Brujas
Median attendance was again in the 4K-5K range, which probably won't change that much going forward until CONCACAF member nations become more wealthy and their citizens have more discretionary income to spend on entertainment. Of note, Toronto drew worse this year than last.
Even looking towards the championship round of the tournament, the attendance doesn't get that much better than the group stage, especially considering that most of the remaining teams are Mexican clubs who should be expected to draw well. (55.5K at Montreal on 2-25-09 sticks out as an extremely impressive attendance figure.)
It's safe to say that demand for CCL group stage matches, though, is lower than demand for MLS league play (or even Mexican Primera Division play.) Once that has been established, for the Sounders it becomes a question of how much lower the demand is for CCL group stage matches than it is for league play, and whether or not they will turn off some of their season ticket holders by including all three CCL games.
I would love to see this change. I would be elated if the Sounders could sell out even one of their CCL group stage games, and I would be extremely happy if they can average 25K/game through the group stage. I would also love to seek RSL average 16K/game, Toronto average 20K/game, and Columbus get to maybe 10K/game or so. (More than that for Columbus seems unrealistic.) If all those teams can draw like that, this year's CCL will smash the previous attendance marks. I'm not so sure that those teams can draw that well, though.
US Open Cup
In 2009, there were two games that broke 10,000 fans: the final at DC (17K), and the third round game at Portland (16K). Other than those two games, there was only one game that drew over 5,000 fans (6K at Rochester for Rhinos vs. Crew.) The Sounders could have undoubtedly drawn more than they did at Starfire, but just how many is hard to say.
In 2008, no one broke 10,000 for any game in USOC play. I only count 5 games which wouldn't have fit into Starfire.
If the Sounders were to include a 3rd-round USOC game in the season ticket package, people would have come--but would they overall have been happy about paying for that game in their package? Given the USOC attendance for other MLS teams, it seems unlikely that more than about 50-60% of season ticket holders would have really been excited about that game, maybe fewer. Some people would have obviously been very happy with the USOC game in the season ticket package, but it seems to me that they are a rather vocal minority.
Friendlies
This year's friendlies have so far been underwhelming, which is generally going to be the case in a World Cup year. I would be disappointed if the Sounders stopped scheduling friendlies altogether, though. One day, maybe all friendlies will be lower in demand than all Sounders competitions, but that day is not today. There's a market for the friendlies, and as long as that market persists, the Sounders should continue to have friendlies. I look forward to hearing who the Sounders are going to bring in for Friendly C, and I look forward to seeing who they will bring in next year.
All things being equal, I'd pick a competitive match over a friendly match, if I could only choose one. But usually not all things are equal, and thankfully I don't have to choose one or the other. That's why I'm in favor of trophies AND friendlies, where we have our cake and eat it, too.
See you at Qwest on the 25th.
FanPosts only represent the opinions of the poster, not of Sounder at Heart.
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There's an easy way to increase attendance for both of those
include them in season ticket packages.
But well done gathering the numbers.
I’m one of those season ticket holders that needs to choose where to spend my money. I give the club a couple hundred dollars already. It would be nice if that went towards games that matter.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I agree with you but
it’s not like it’s a huge financial burden to be able to attend these matches. I was a season ticket holder last year, but due to a premature baby, me being a student, and my wife needing to stop work, that was one of the things we’ve had to give up. That being said, dropping $15-30 for tickets to these games is definitely something we’ve still been able to do (once we invested in some baby headphones). Affordability is not one of the CCLs problems.
Did you buy tix to the friendlies?
Or just the CCL?
Raising the profile of the domestic game is part of the role of USSF etc. To do that organizations that are members of the USSF need to place more importance on the domestic game than on international friendlies.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Just the CCL
We’ll be going to the USOC matches as well. No to friendlies though.
So you prioritized Trophies Not Friendlies
but want me to do the opposite?
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
You can do what you want
all I was saying was that an extra $15 bucks for a match isn’t going to break a lot of season ticket holders’ bank. The issue isn’t price, its a general lack of support (marketing, and I don’t count “Seattle Meets the World” posters) from the FO. I’m a big supporter of including CCL in season tickets, but I don’t think the price point is hampering too many.
Like what is said below
If price is a problem, sell the less desirable Friendly tickets, I can’t imagine not being able to get $15 for them
Thanks for putting this on the front page, Dave
Given your preference for competitions over friendlies, I can see your frustration. As a stopgap measure, have you considered selling your friendly tickets in order to boost the money you have to spend on USOC and CCL games? Not sure what the market was like for them this year, but I’d guess that you could have gotten as much money from Boca and Celtic tix as it will cost to go to at least two CCL games. Obviously the hassle is an issue, but from what you’ve alluded to elsewhere, it sounds as though the FO will be giving season ticket holders at least some kind of option going forward.
I'll second Dave's comments
Great job compiling these numbers, but I think there is definitely another way to interpret them. I don’t think we’ve been claiming that fans are necessarily dying to attend CCL matches. Rather our point is that the Sounders FO should be placing emphasis on getting more people into these games. An obvious way to do that would be making them part of the ST package.
If the Sounders still want to schedule friendlies, great, but if there’s proof people will buy tickets anyway, that’s a great argument that it makes more sense to not include them in ST package.
Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together
Does the front office really need to schedule three friendlies?
Two friendlies (along with MLS Cup) were fine last year as this was a new franchise. But, each subsequent year, I care less and less about the friendlies and more about winning trophies. I think some type of compromise works best. One outstanding friendly and include two CCL/Open Cup matches into the season ticket package.
by Coug1990 on Aug 15, 2010 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
On one hand, I see the argument for just including the CCL games...
…and presuming that by getting people to CCL games, interest in CCL will increase, and then everyone is happy with having the CCL games included. I think there’s also a chance that some season ticket holders could look at the package and say “Marathon? Saprissa? I’ve never heard of them. What happened to Chelsea and Barcelona?” Granted, Celtic and Boca Juniors are already lower profile than Chelsea and Barcelona, but I’d guess there’s still a lot more brand recognition with Celtic and Boca than with our CCL opponents. (And we arguably have a pretty well-known group as CCL play goes.)
Eventually, I suspect that much of the fan base will prefer the intensity of a competitive game to the brand recognition of the friendlies. One way to transition towards that would be to offer season ticket holders some kind of choice like a) just friendlies, no USOC or CCL, b) all USOC and CCL games (could be two, could be eight), or c) both for some additional charge.
Making the fans choose would also keep them from seeing the USOC and CCL games as giveaways. Any time you give away a product for no marginal cost, you take a risk that the consumers will continue to expect that to be provided for no marginal cost. And then people get irritated if you start charging extra for those games after they have gotten them “for free” in the past. And while it would be charitable of the Sounders to provide extra entertainment for no additional cost, they are running a business, and I can understand if they want to make sure they get paid for those extra matches.
From an RSL fan’s perspective, if RSL doesn’t make CCL next year, then even if RSL keeps season ticket prices constant, the RSL season ticket holder is getting less for the same money with no CCL games being included. With budgets being tight these days, that could negatively impact RSL’s ticket renewal rate.
CCL is so young that I can see RSL’s gamble as a reasonable one, but I do think that they are taking something of a risk. I’m also not sure if they had any big-name friendlies last year, so I’m not sure if they’re really in the same boat as the Sounders.
To be clear, I really appreciate that you guys are pushing USOC and CCL—I think they are great competitions and I think that they are only going to become more popular as fans learn more about them and see their teams compete in them. I just don’t know if it makes sense for the Sounders to replace the friendlies with those games in the season ticket packages in a straight swap. I have faith that they will figure something out to eventually make the transition, though.
one idea I've had floating around in my head...
Would be to offer an addition optional package to your season ticket package that would essentially prepay all home non-MLS regular season matchs that are competative in nature; I.E. Open Cup, CCL, and Playoffs.
If we don’t make the playoffs, you lose the cash. If we make the playoffs you already have discounted playoff tickets.
I’d be willing to “bet” on success each season.
MLS only please
for season tickets. Buy in options for CCL or Superliga. Keep USOC at Starfire except for final. It really does provide a special atmosphere. Sure go ahead and move it to Qwest if demand truly dictates it. But for the foreseeable future the USOC is really just a test of reserve depth until the final. I do pay attention to the USOC but don’t desire to be forced to spend more $$ on watching mostly MLS bench players and USL teams.
As for friendlies I’d prefer to see them not part of the ticket package but an option to buy/right of first refusal. We don’t need 3 per year and sometimes they just don’t make sense due to schedule congestion or world cup year and this year we have both. I guess my message to the front office would be only bring in a team that would sell well without being propped up by 36K season ticket holders.
This year if I would have has a choice I would have declined the friendlies, bought all CCL, watched Open Cup on TV, Internet stream (but of course will buy a final at Qwest).
by mark_s on Aug 15, 2010 6:45 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I forgot about Superliga
I won’t really consider Superliga a legit competition until half the games are in Mexico. Given home field advantage in soccer, Superliga seems rather unfair.
If somebody said
Here choose: you can have tickets to a friendly – sounders vs Barcelona or a first round match of the us open cup vs Portland. What would you choose? Seriously is there a comparison?
by m_b on Aug 15, 2010 7:53 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Obviously there is
It is right in this thread, and I can see merits to both sides of the argument.
Which side you land on? I haven’t a clue.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I'd rather see a competitive match where the opposition wants to win
by Graham MacAree on Aug 15, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
If you don't think barca
Wants to win every match then give me some of whatever you are smoking.
by m_b on Aug 15, 2010 10:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Why are people like you getting so cranky when someone states a preference?
Chill out. Many of us think one way and many think another way. This happens all the time in life. Engage in the conversation if you want, but there is no need to be obtuse.
by Sec 108 on Aug 16, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
For me
it would be the difference between going to see a soccer game, and selling my tickets and getting a lot of money for them (so I can spend it on more soccer games).
It’s tempting to see a team like Barca, but it’s more tempting to make money from it. Especially since the game doesn’t matter.
Vs. PDX is a game I’d want to see, I’d be invested in the outcome, and…no one would give me $100+ per ticket.
I want to know if Friendly C will end up being the USOC Final, if we make it and win the bid. Dave probably knows the answer to this but can’t tell us. Eh, Dave? But they would have to rename the ticket Trophy A.
these are all pointless arguments
I decided quite some time ago that “popularity” was a crappy gauge for what I cared about. I happen to be a big fan of Formula One racing and hate NASCAR, but according to the demographics I should like NASCAR and not care about F1… oddly enough I don’t give a shit…
If people fail to grasp the importance of continental championships in club soccer then I am not going to waste my breath trying to explain it to them, just as I am not going to waste my time explaining the importance of domestic cup competitions (FA Cup, Copa del Rey, USOC, et. al.)
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
by malcontentjake on Aug 16, 2010 10:35 AM PDT reply actions
also...
Mexican football culture is famously provincial, a barrier that is only recently beginning to break down, and the current CCL format is pretty new…
...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!
by malcontentjake on Aug 16, 2010 10:40 AM PDT reply actions
One issue here might be
that changing things around would possibly cause the FO to get lower profile teams for friendlies. We do have a relatively big soccer community in Seattle, but the STHs are still a big chunk of it. Depending on how many of them decide to buy extra tickets to a friendly (i.e. what the turnout ends up being), the FO might get skittish about bringing in bigger names because of the cost. Can’t have Barca every year. How many of you would buy an extra ticket for, say, Arsenal, or other ‘big names’ that wouldn’t maybe have the draw of Barcalona or Man U? OTOH, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there would be big enough crowds to justify it.
Also, how many STHs would just try and sell CCL or USOC tickets? I know that my CCL tickets are courtesy of friends of friends that aren’t using their seats for the CCL games. Would the crowds actually be any bigger if these matches were part of the STH package?
Personally, I tend to agree that I like competitive matches more. I certainly don’t think we really need 3 friendlies every season. I think a good compromise (I believe I’ve seen it suggested here somewhere) would be to have maybe one friendly that STHs get and then also include CCL or later stage USOC games, if possible (I don’t think including early round USOC games would work well or draw many people and possibly prompt complaints from STHs).
I think there are far more Arsenal supporters in the US than Barcelona supporters.
I’m basing that on personal experience, so I could be wrong, but something like 50% of the soccer fans I know support Arsenal.
by Aaron Campeau on Aug 17, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok, perhaps a bad example, but
you get my point – a ‘big name’ team that maybe doesn’t have quite the cache of Barca after their treble.
American awareness of soccer drop precipitously outside of the EPL
For example, I’ve only ever met face to face one other person who was a fan of a Serie A team.
You're suggesting that 50% of STH would just no-show for the CCL?
That’s the only way the crowd would be smaller than it is now.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Might happen
A weeknight, an opponent many don’t know, not a regular season game… It’s a possibility. I’m certainly not convinced that 34K would necessarily show up for a CCL match even if it was in the package. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think some fans just aren’t that interested and would rather have the friendlies in their tickets.
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