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Don Garber's Strange Comments on MLS Conference Realignment

EDITOR'S NOTE: I'd been thinking about writing about this very topic and Sidereal basically sums it up well.

We didn't really pick up on this topic, as the Sounders faithful were paying closer attention to the game in El Salvador than to the All Star game festivities in Houston, but at a press conference during the break, this exchange occured:

Q. Considering the two new clubs are located in the west, will there some be some realignment in the league conferences and will Portland, Seattle and Vancouver remain in the Western Conference?

(Garber) Yes, there will be realignment, and those three clubs will stay in the west. We know that two teams from the west will have to be moved to the east, but we don't which ones yet.

Assuming that this wasn't simply a mis-statement on the part of the commissioner, which seems unlikely, what exactly are we to make of it?

Now that teams are playing in balanced schedules, the divisional structure in MLS is mostly just decoration. As far as I'm aware, the only impact it has on the results is in the provision that at least two teams from each division must make the playoffs, as well as the particular organization of the playoff matchups. For the latter, there's still enough parity in MLS that particular playoff matchups don't provide any advantage (after all, the last team to make the playoffs last season won the Cup). And for the former, the 2-teams-per-conference provision only matters if there would only otherwise be 1 team in a conference, which — even with the current dominance of the West — is unthinkable. However, it might be enough to make an argument for keeping balanced conferences. That is, pulling a guaranteed 2 teams out of one pool of 8 and one pool of 10 might seem a little unfair to the pool of 10, even if it's almost certainly never going to matter.

Star-divide

If we revert to an unbalanced schedule with the addition of more teams (which seems likely, as teams are already spread thin with 30 league games), then divisional alignment begins to matter more. But it becomes an even stronger argument for evenly sized divisions. Certainly Midwest and Texan teams might jockey for a particular conference, given the competitive differences in playing one set of teams twice and the other once per season (which is by far the most likely schedule setup), and travel budget becomes a large factor when figuring out which teams you'd have to visit every season versus every other season. But what exactly would an unbalanced schedule look like with one conference of 12 teams and one of 8? If it's even possible, it would be a nightmare in terms of competitive balance.

And why bother with the complexity? Can anyone think of a reason for unbalanced conferences? It could make sense, at least temporarily and as long as we keep a balanced schedule, if it smooths the transition of new teams into the league. So let's take a look at what expansion would do.

We know Portland and Vancouver enter the league next season, and they must be Western Conference teams as they are physically located on the west coast and have a strong regional rivalry with Seattle. The following season, Montreal enters the league and is very much an eastern team. After that, Garber has strongly intimated that he wants a 20th team, though the exact location is very much up in the air. The most likely sites are New York and Miami, and beyond that MLS has a general preference for the southeast, as it's the only region of the country without a team. San Diego is also a possibility, but the most likely destination will be in the East. So we have two certain West teams, followed by an almost certain East team, followed by an undecided but probable East team. So which realignments after the 2010 season might make sense?

Option 1: Move Nobody

With the addition of Portland and Vancouver, next season the West would have 10 teams to the East's 8. The following season, Montreal would join the East. And eventually (let's assume that it's the following season for the sake of argument), another team joins the East. And voila, we're balanced.

  • Total Moves: 0
  • Seasons with a +1 division: 1
  • Seasons with a +2 division: 1

Option 2: Move 1 Team East

Adding 2 to the West and moving 1 East would keep the conferences balanced at 9. Montreal would give the East an additional team. Then, if the 20th team is in the West we do nothing, but if we assume it's in the East, a team must move back to the West.

  • Total Moves: 2
  • Seasons with a +1 division: 1
  • Seasons with a +2 division: 0

Option Garber: Move 2 Teams East

Adding 2 to the West and moving 2 East would give the East a 10-8 advantage. Adding an East team in 2012 would make it 11-8, and require moving at least one team back to the West to get to 10-9. Adding another East team in 2013 would require moving at least one more team back West to get to 10-10.

  • Total Moves: 4
  • Seasons with a +1 division: 1
  • Seasons with a +2 division: 1

So you can understand the confusion. Why would Garber opt for a plan that requires two teams to move east and then have to move back over the next two years to rebalance? If it's the same two teams, it makes almost no sense. It might make sense if the intent is for the teams that move West to be different from the teams that move East. Suppose that the Texas teams want to move East together (as has been rumored) and that they want, say, Chicago and Toronto to go the west. Ignoring for a moment how ridiculous this is geographically, why not just swap them at once next year without all of the season-by-season shifting around?

If the goal is to minimize movement, Option 1 is best. If it's to keep the conferences as balanced as possible, Option 2 is best. What goal could possibly make Option Garber best? Is it politics? Economics? Regardless, it looks like MLS is about to do something wasteful and silly.

(Crossposted at Seattle Soccer Scene)

Poll
If you were commissioner, how would you realign the teams this offseason?
Single Table
158 votes
Move 1 Team East
33 votes
Move 2 Teams East
15 votes
No Realignment
10 votes

216 votes | Poll has closed

FanPosts only represent the opinions of the poster, not of Sounder at Heart.

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no option for 3 conferences?

Because that let’s you do some fun things with scheduling.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 12:55 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Three Conferences

Would make the Playoffs a little different (top of each conference qualify, next best 5), with no “Conference Championship.” Though that could be given out to the regular season winner.

But for a Confernce based schedule it gets easy

with 18 teams you face each team in the Conference twice (10 games), host one conference and away at the other conference (12 games) extra game against each team that finished at same rank within their own conference (3rd best West plays total of 2 v 3rd best East, Central) for 2 more games.

Six “floating games” against historical rivals.

As the league grows, those disappear.

At 21 Teams
Same Conference = 12
Other Conferences = 14
Parity Games = 2
Floating Games = 2

At 24 teams
Same Conference = 14
Other Conferences = 16
Parity games = 2

There is enough talent that NY2 and a Southern team could be added for 2012 with Montreal.

Part of the 2012 expansion should be that those teams start Reserve and Academy teams the year prior to expansion.

For the 2014 round of expansion do it 2 years prior.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 8, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

One other possibility I've read about

Actually involves moving three teams next year. The two Texas teams would go east and KC would go West. This would leave the conferences balanced next year and then give the East 10 teams in 2012. The big problem with this, obv, is that it would likely require more movement when the 20th team is likely added to the East in 2013.

The easiest solution, I think, is just going single table. I really don’t think that is happening, so the next best option would seem to be moving nobody. You end up with one year of unbalanced conferences, but since there’s no obvious candidate to move East by itself (you aren’t going to be able to send one Texas team or one Mountain West team alone) it seems to be the best of some bad choices.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 7, 2010 12:56 PM PDT reply actions  

I know I've said this

But I just wish there could be a single-table, balanced-schedule system to this league. I’ve come to believe that this idea of conferences and divisions is the great scourge of major American sports, as all it really does is lead to competitive imbalance and obfuscation of the standings. Local rivalries are all well and good, but the idea that you need to play someone 6x a year is ludicrous (and I’m looking at you, NHL!), and DO NOT get me started on MLB (argh!) What’s wrong with the idea that derby match is played twice a year, once home and once away? Does College football lose something with their great rivalries only once a year? Okay, I’m rambling and this only semi-related to this issue…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 1:27 PM PDT reply actions  

I get that

But I actually like the conference/division method of American sports. Well, actually, I really just like how the NFL does it.

Personally, my ideal schedule would be like this (assuming two conferences of 10 teams each):

1 game vs each team in the other conference (10 games)
2 games vs each team in your conference (18 games)
2 extra games vs rival teams (in our case, Portland and Vancouver obviously).

That equals 30 games, decreases travel, and promotes regional/city rivalries. Seems ideal to me.

by J Sep on Aug 7, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

agree, disagree

I agree on your 20-team MLS schedule proposal… best way to do it (given the circumstances, which as I’ve said I don’t like) discussion over ;-)

now, to take issue with your NFL statement. Obviously, the NFL is the only League in which divisions are Necessary for schedule purposes (given number of teams and games in a season) unfortunately, it is also the WORST at this structure leading to aforementioned obfuscation and imbalance.

Compare it to the World Cup. For most of the 32 teams in every W.C., so much of their fortune is related to the group draw, now imagine the groups are the same, year after year… and you have something close to the NFL.

Our own Seahawks took advantage of this for about a 5-year stretch, enjoying the benefits of a crappy division (not that I’m complaining!) What are you gonna do, though, this idea of conferences and divisions seems permanently welded into the structure of NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, and other lesser American-Canadian sports…

but, again, we somewhat digress here.. I’m just saying it would be nice for our soccer league to follow a more global model, all the while challenging these conventional notions of the “major” sports…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

A single table!

The top 8 go to the playoffs. The last-place team is relegated.

A dream for 2015 when MLS is at 20+ teams and the D2/USL/NASL stuff is all worked out.

by Kohflot on Aug 7, 2010 4:28 PM PDT reply actions  

yeah, because its only the way virtually every other soccer league in the WORLD does it

so, obviously, relegation promotion is a dumb idea that would NEVER work

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

at the risk of starting another long thread

It will never work in a league where you just had people pay you $50 million to join and then relegate them to a league where their franchise value will be about 5 million.

by blakec on Aug 7, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Obviously all NFL fans are clamoring for relegation and promotion

Oh wait, the NFL is a wildly successful league without promotion or relegation and Don Garber is modeling the MLS after the NFL. What an idiot! Why would he try to emulate such a successful league structure?

It’s really okay that MLS is different than most other soccer leagues in the world, they are in a much different situation than most other soccer leagues in the world.

by ubelmann on Aug 7, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's geography

That’s really all there is to it

by Graham MacAree on Aug 7, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

and since geography for the NFL is the same as for MLS

that should be some kind of indication of something

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

the MLS isn't modeled after the NFL

and if it were, it would instantly spell the death of top-division professional soccer in America…

and relegation/promotion would do WONDERS for major league baseball, which has an economic system more in line with European soocer

I just find it astounding that in America, of all places, we are so incredibly resistant to a more “free market” system for professional sports. As a culture, we complain about [real or perceived] “European-style socialism”, yet when it comes to major professional sports, its Europe with the free-market system and America that’s socialist.

There is no punishment for failure in leagues like the NHL, NBA, MLB, and NFL, and so you have teams like the LA Clippers and Milwaukee Brewers and Detroit Lions who are Guaranteed economic security on the backs of teams that strive for success, whilst the owners of these perrenial bottom-dwellers make no clear effort to improve their teams. (and we are seeing that, disturbingly enough, with the Seattle Mariners!)

Doesn’t make sense to me, particualrly in a country where we PRIDE ourselves on the idea that the free market is the be-all end-all.

Thing is, I’ve NEVER heard an adequate counter to this argument. All I ever get are these vague “won’t work here” comments, with half-assed comparisons to the “NFL model” and the like. I DON’T WANT the MLS to follow the “NFL model”, whatever that is, mainly because – and it Absolutely pains me to say this – tackle football is the “American” sport and soccer football wil not – no way, never – surpass it, in my lifetime at least.

So lets be realistic about this, and what the HELL is so wrong with having MLS fall in line with what is essentailly a PROVEN global system for the game?!

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

MLS is clearly modeled after the NFL

from the shared revenue, the shared rights deals, to the salary cap with few exceptions, to the shared ownership

When you ignore that you ignore the foundation of the league.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

hate to nitpick

but the actual entity of the NFL is a non-profit, and franchises are individually owned. MLS has the “single entity” model. IMO, their “single entity” system will need to be evolved out of, towards a “club” based structure, like in most of the rest of the world…

The smoking gun was in the stressful CBA bargaining this last winter. The MLS is only going to be able to operate this way for a while longer, as their own success will increase the need to fit into the global marketplace of soccer. The “American Exceptionalsim” that applies to NFL and MLB simply won’t fly with soccer, because the MLS eventually needs to realize they are essentially running the American branch of a gloabl conglomerate, so to speak. The NBA and NHL are going to, very soon, be forced to learn this lesson, to a lesser extent (the KHL in Europe is backed by Russian oil money, and European basketball leagues are growing in stature).

So, I concede that my subject statement was flawed… but other than that…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

How did the last CBA change this?

Because the league won almost every portion of the negotiation.

Teams still hold player rights
There is no free agency
There is still shared revenue

MLS is still more like the NFL than any other sports league in the world

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

the acrimony...

was telling… the players conceded to keep their jobs, knowing they fired some warning shots. I think they also sent a message I hope some people listened to, and next time around… well, we’ll see

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

The NFL operates a cartel

The only organization in the world selling a product in just about the one market in the world interested in buying it. It has exclusive access to the source of new employees, who have no where else they can pursue a career. They can either work for the cartel, or leave the field altogether. There’s no one else hiring, and most likely, there will never be any one else hiring. The cartel controls the supply of the product, artificially creating scarcity which drives prices up and giving cartel members more leverage when dealing with local governments. At the same time, it also restricts competition between cartel members and subsidizes weak members with resources from stronger ones, meaning that the incentive to improve and innovate is reduced. Even better for the cartel, there is almost no possibility of external competition at all, pretty much forever. There is another cartel with a similar product, but the whole cartel is selling to a market that’s smaller than just one of the larger markets you sell to.

That’s the model MLS is basing itself upon. Tell me which parts of that applies to soccer.

by CarlosT on Aug 7, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's true that there are no exact substitutes for NFL football...

…and in that sense there is no external competition. But there are plenty of close substitutes. If there was really no competing against the NFL, no NFL franchise would ever need to move, but sometimes teams do poorly because they don’t win or aren’t compelling or whatever, and people take their entertainment dollars elsewhere. So there is a very strong incentive for the league to improve—it needs to keep attracting new fans and keeping existing fans from defecting to other sports.

EPL soccer is not an exact substitute for MLS soccer, just the same way that MLB is not an exact substitute for NPB. MLB unarguably has more talent than NPB. But if you live in Japan, you can’t attend games in person without taking a massive trip, and even watching games on television or online is going to be inconvenient. But NPB still sold 22 million tickets in 2009, despite having an inferior product. Having the very highest level of talent in the world is not essential to having a successful, popular league.

As it stands, under the current model, MLS does lose talented players to overseas leagues and it hurts the overall level of talent in the league. But the current structure of the league has maintained parity amongst teams, and the overall talent in the league has been improving. Barring some kind of labor issue (which is definitely a risk for the league’s structure, but if FIFA backs the league’s stance, then the players are screwed, because ultimately FIFA calls the shots), I see no reason that the league can’t continue to gain popularity, which will lead to more revenue.

Basically, as long as MLS can attract fans, it will bring in money. As long as the league has money, it will be able to bring in players the same way that a team in a non-single-entity league can. The more money they make, the better the quality of play will be. Even in a global marketplace, this is not an unsustainable model.

by ubelmann on Aug 8, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

The point is the NFL model suceeds in the market for American football

Where conditions are not remotely similar to soccer. A couple specific points:

  1. NFL franchises, and American sports franchises generally, almost never move because of poor performance. It is almost always because they can extract more favorable terms, such as stadiums, tax breaks, or whatever, from their new locales. The very fact that there are places to move to is a result of the artificial limitation of supply that the cartel has imposed. In soccer outside the US, club moves are extremely rare, because almost every place has a team already. In addition, promotion and relegation also make it at least theoretically possible for any of those clubs to appear in the top league someday. As for entertainment dollars, the cartel practices literal redistribution of wealth, so it can tolerate, and has tolerated, substandard franchises for years and years.
  2. For many people, the EPL and MLS are equally remote and will always be so. MLS will expand to a certain point and eventually stop, and from that point forward, those cities outside the realistic travel range of an MLS club will forever experience MLS in exactly the same way they experience EPL, Serie A, La Liga, etc. That is, as matches on TV. For those people, MLS and foreign soccer are exact substitutes of one another and MLS will be unlikely to compare well.

by CarlosT on Aug 9, 2010 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I see the allure of a single table

But really, the US is a gigantic country. Washington state covers more geographical area than the entire country of England. (It’s not really that close, either.) If we were talking about a 20-team league in Washington state, then sure, I think having conferences would be pretty silly. But a 20-team league that covers four time zones should at least consider conferences. Coast-to-coast travel sucks for the players and probably results in lower quality soccer.

Especially if MLS can have 3-4 teams from Canada, my personal ideal might be something like two 16-team leagues split into MLS East and MLS West. Each league would play a single-table schedule within their league. Then the top four teams from each league would play for the MLS Cup.

I know it would be far, far off for MLS to have 32 teams, but I think it could work if MLS keeps stadium sizes down to the 25k-35k range. (Which I think gives you more potential markets to place teams.) Given the infancy of the MLS academy system, I think that they have only just begun to tap the soccer talent in this country, so I don’t think that the league would be worse off talent-wise than it is now.

By splitting the league east-west, fans would have much more convenient travel options for away games, and I think that it would make all of the non-league competitions more interesting. As it stands, MLS Cup playoffs seem slightly silly since we effectively have a single table. But with two non-overlapping leagues, the playoff matchups would be more intriguing. For the four US CCL berths, just have the East Supporter’s Shield and West Supporter’s Shield straight to the group stage, and make the MLS Cup winner and USOC winner go through the preliminary stage. And by separating the league schedule by region, then in the USOC an MLS East vs. MLS West matchup wouldn’t seem like just another league game.

Anyway, that’s mostly pie-in-the-sky stuff, but I think that given our geography, the US is materially different from most all European countries, and that there are real benefits to be had from splitting teams up by region, whether it is into conferences or divisions or whatever.

by ubelmann on Aug 7, 2010 4:40 PM PDT reply actions  

huh?!

 32 teams, split the league into D1 and D2, with rel/pro… and a 32-team “League Cup” to replace MLS cup (knockout tournament). “Supporters Shield” would be D1 championship (similar for D2)

the “geography argument” doesn’t fly with me, not in a league with generally only 1 match a week (at most 2)

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's effectively what every US sports league does now

When someone is bad, they get sent to the minors, or cut, or whatever. Players change levels and teams don’t. It works very well.

by ubelmann on Aug 8, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

But if whole teams swapped

that would be entertaining. All of DC United move to Austin, and Austin moves to DC.

by Cornchops on Aug 8, 2010 11:41 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

The continental US is smaller than Brazil.

There are some longer flight times in the US because the US is more rectangular, while Brazil is more like a parallelogram tilted on its side. Brazil has promotion and relegation and a national league, and a national FA Cup style competition every year involving teams from all parts of the country. It took a while to develop, but it got worked out.

Believe it or not, soccer is played in one or two countries that are not England. It’s even played outside of Europe.

by CarlosT on Aug 7, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Brazilain popularion density is not at all similar to the USA

The populace is almost entirely on the coast, and if you took all of the teams in the first division over the past decade a tiny percent would be from non-dense coastal areas.

Brazil does not ignore 1/3 of its nation in the current league, and never has.

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Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

sorry

1/3 was a reference to the POPULATION of the USA that MLS ignores

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by Dave Clark on Aug 8, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

The cup is national

And really, truly national. Teams from really remote areas such as Acre, Amazonas, and Roraima (just to pick the states furthest from the most populous areas) participate each and every year.

by CarlosT on Aug 7, 2010 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I expect like most Cup tournaments

It actually doesn’t make anyone money.

Shouldn’t MLS be trying to do that?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 8, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, it kind of does, indirectly

The 54 of the 64 teams are determined using state or regional competitions, and there is promotion and relegation in a lot of those.

by CarlosT on Aug 9, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

also, on "over-expansion"

expansion was the scourge of the NHL, I fear the same for MLS. I think 18 is on the verge of too many teams, and 20 certainly is…

the better long-term solution to adding potential markets to the first division is to have interested owners start clubs in a/the lower division, and they can invest the money to “play” their way up, replacing teams that really ought to be relegated. Wow, a merit-based system, in the domain of an allegedly merit based profession… crazy talk…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Aug 7, 2010 8:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Expansion doen'st hurt a league that isn't at the top

There is no shortage of MLS quality players. So you can’t overexpand.

The number of Taylor Grahams, Roger Levesques and Seb Le Touxs in global football is closer to infinity than 0.

But until MLS is a national league it will not garner national attention. It can’t be national with 20 teams.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

It also can't be national

If we keep sticking new teams where we already have teams. We need a southern team. I know all the reasons why that’s sad, but the fact is, we miss so much of the TV market by not having a team between DC and Houston.

As small as some of the new stadiums are, I wish they would just bite the bullet and bring up the Battery from SC.

by blakec on Aug 7, 2010 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Charleston has a ton going for it

one of the best stadiums despite size

and very green

They’d be on my shortlist over Atlanta

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can understand the reluctance of the league to expand too quickly

I also think that you’re right in that the league ought to be as national as possible. If the league kind of wants to pause around 20 teams, one way to make the league more national would be to pair up Div. 2 teams with MLS teams the way that MLB and NHL teams have affiliated minor league teams. If, say, Minnesota was paired up with KC, then you’d get at least some interest from Minnesota’s fans in watching their promoted players playing with KC in MLS. This wouldn’t be quite as good for the league as having revenue from a new MLS team, but it would probably help with national TV numbers and it would be a bit less risky. I think it would also be good for the league in that someone like Montano or Estrada (or Nyassi or Fucito last year) would be able to get more playing time to develop and the Sounders would have a better way to evaluate some of their options against one another.

Once every team has an affiliated minor league team and the league looks stable, then look at how you can expand past 20 teams in MLS. The league really has been expanding at a pretty breakneck speed lately.

by ubelmann on Aug 8, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is actually one possible way for a reserve league to work

Some of the discussion regarding reserve league possibilities has been the idea of teams creating formal relationships with lower-division teams that would allow players to move up and down as needed.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 8, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm glad that that's in the discussion

Given last winter’s USL/NASL fiasco, I don’t have the most confidence in the current stability of US Div. 2 soccer. Getting a little money and scouting/talent help from MLS seems like a winning proposal for those teams, even as it helps MLS.

by ubelmann on Aug 8, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I just have to say this

… it’s not possible for something to be closer to infinity than 0…

>.<

by majora999 on Aug 7, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know real math

but if we are operating in an MLS must be pro/rel mode I don’t have to use real math

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

All those that want pro/rel and 20 teams

please explain how MLS avoids the following

Midweek League dates
FIFA dates
SuperLiga Dates
CCL Dates
USOpen Cup dates
Not playing in Dec/Jan/Feb

and still allows time for Playoffs

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 8:37 PM PDT reply actions  

oh, in a single table

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Easy

Skip the playoffs. Everybody play everybody twice, winner is the one who did the best during the season.

by CarlosT on Aug 7, 2010 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

That only adds four weekends

and doesn’t solve the FIFA date issue

For 38 matches between mid-March and the end of November.

You may want to look at attendence numbers in late march now for MLS.

You may want to also compare the schedules of the most similar climates to 50% of MLS teams to the schedule of leagues with similar climates to the northern MLS sides.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 7, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

That reminds me

and this is off topic but..
how are the teams doing in terms of attendence? You threw up a post at the beginning of the year and it wasn’t terribly promising. I’m curious how the MLS teams are doing now that the season is further along.

Now with more lemon bars!

by Fear on Aug 7, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Looks good to me

So far this season, league average attendance is up by 9%, and the league has 7% more teams than it had last year. I have to imagine that Portland and Vancouver will help increase that average next year. And looking at the bottom of the rankings, San Jose is going into a new 15K-18K stadium in 2012 and KC is moving into a new 18.5K stadium in 2011. It would be really great if the Revs could get a soccer specific stadium closer to Boston. Dallas’ attendance seems to depend a lot on whether or not the team is winning.

by ubelmann on Aug 8, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Holy hell, how did the Red Bulls manage such an increase?

That can’t all be Henry, especially since he’s only played a few games for them.

by Tohoya on Aug 8, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

They opened a stadium that they own

As opposed to playing at Giants stadium.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 8, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

We're already rehashing pro/rel arguments on this thread

so I hate to also open the horrible doors of doom to a playoffs/no playoffs argument, but I’m going to anyway, since you basically already did. ;)

I think the Sounders’ season this year is the perfect argument against having no playoffs and just a Supporter’s Shield winner is the champ argument. What, am I supposed to be cheering my butt off for the Sounders to maybe finish 8th? Maybe they could finish 7th? Woo-hoo! Oh, but if they don’t get their act together, they might fall to 10th. Um, no thanks. Who cares if they finish 8th or 10th?

Yes, yes, I realize you could set something up for an entry into the Open Cup depending on the finish, like Europe has for Cup competitions, which, IF the Open Cup meant much to many fans, might be something, but that still potentially leaves a lot of MLS games that no one really cares about the result of. Can you see fan interest and confidence shooting up the way it has in the past month based on ‘we might finish 8th!" That’s nothing like maybe making the playoffs and having the chance to maybe win the MLS cup. Plus, what about those teams like, say, Dallas, that will barring catastrophy, would be in the top 5 or so, but really have no shot at getting near the Shield.

by Nevtelen on Aug 7, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sports leagues make oodles of cash

on the ability for Fans to convince themselves that “if this and this go the right way, we have a chance at making the playoffs, and then we have a chance at winning it all!”. We are very good at convincing ourselves that the highly improbable is likely.

Now with more lemon bars!

by Fear on Aug 7, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who cares if they finish 1st through 8th?

The Supporter’s Shield is a pretty bauble, but the champion is determined by the MLS Cup, and it doesn’t really matter at all where you finish, as long as you’re in the part of the season that actually counts for something.

I can tell you from personal experience that a season like the Sounders have been having is absolute agony in most leagues. With each point dropped, you keep trying to figure out what you can come away with this season. Each round leaves you with less and less time and room to maneuver and you keep hoping that this is the round when they finally figure it out, when they start to take points again. All the while, you’re hanging on the results of every game in the league, hoping that the teams ahead of you will slip up, so you can maybe make up some ground if the team starts winning again. And then you get to the six-pointers, the games where you’re facing your nearest rivals, especially the ones at the end of the season, where literally one shot could change your season. And, at the last, even below the satisfaction of avoiding relegation (if it’s been that kind of season), there’s the hope of finishing above your traditional nemeses, so at the very least you can snatch that barest morsel of satisfaction: “Ha!, we both went down this year, but we finished 19th and you finished 20th, you losers!”

So far, my reactions to the Sounders season have ranged from fairly discouraged to somewhat more optimistic. It always sucks to lose, and losing badly (like LA at Qwest or Philadelphia away), really hurts, and winning never gets old, so there’s definitely some ups and downs. But it’s hard to get worked up over the week by week stuff when the whole point is to end up in the top half, so then we can throw out what happened all year, and finally play some games that count for something. Rather than an emotional roller coaster, it’s more like emotional Skee Ball. You make your tosses, and then you see if got enough tickets to get something cool.

by CarlosT on Aug 8, 2010 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Playoffs = American form of Promotion/Relegation

I don’t know whether to reply here or above on the promotion/relegation rant session. I really get tired of the alergic reaction european fans have to the absence of promotion and relegation in American sports. Most of the reasons why this can never happen in American sports have been stated already, so I won’t belabor those points.

The point I will make is that we already have a form of promotion/relegation in the MLS that we’re not recognizing. The playoffs. At the end of the regular season, half of the league is “relegated” until next season. The top teams are allowed to continue on for a chance at the championships with scheduling and venue favortism given to the better half of the 8 remaining teams. Ironically, this is more similar to how Champions Leagues (UEFA and CONCACAF at least) and the World Cup itself are organized than the way European leagus do it. There is a “league stage” and a knockout stage. The single table with no playoffs system seems very anticlimactic to me as most teams have no possibility of winning the league in the final weeks of the season. Without relegaction possibility for the bottom, there would be little meaning to most of the games in the final 5-7 weeks.

As an American, I love the playoffs. I don’t think we’ll ever get rid of them. I think relegation (as it exists in Europe) is an interesting concept, but I don’t think it will ever have a place in American sports. Americans have embraced the notion of “qualifying for the playoffs” as our form of promotion/relegation where teams are only relegated for one season, and the promoted teams are the only teams who have a chance at winning the championship that year.

by K61 on Aug 8, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Single-table playoffs

I don’t know that this is what other people had in mind, but I really don’t see why single-table couldn’t work with playoffs. I like the idea of promotion/relegation, but I’ll keep that side of the argument to myself fo now. My main issue is that conferences work with expansion in a funky way and would rather see a more simplistic standings system, especially since our current playoff system is essentially based on a single table. It also doesn’t guarantee an Eastern Conference/Western Conference matchup in the MLS Cup (LAG vs. RSL last year, for instance).

For me, single-table standings are just a way of the league being honest with the fans.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 8, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

No irony at all

Other leagues just recognize that if you’ve played everybody in the competition home and away already, a knockout stage is at best superfluous, and more often perverse. In the best case scenario, the team that’s played the best during the whole year, i.e. the one at the top of the table at the end, will also win the knockouts. More often, some team that had an inferior performance, sometimes decidedly inferior (RSL), will emerge as the winner.

In tournaments, the knockouts are required because, after the group stage, each team has played against only a small number of the potential opponents. And knockouts aren’t technically required even then, because the competition could proceed with group stages all the way through to produce a champion. That was how the 1950 World Cup was set up, with the 16 teams playing first in four groups, and then the four group winners going into a final group to play for the Cup. While not going quite as far, the UEFA Champions League had a second group stage from the 1999-2000 season through the 2002-2003 season. It featured four groups, and the top two from each went into the knockouts, which started with the quarterfinals.

To sum up – Promotion/Relegation : Playoffs :: Genuine Rolex : $10 Knockoff

by CarlosT on Aug 9, 2010 4:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Playoffs vs. SingleTable

Your points are totally valid, but I think there is one thing to keep in mind when talking playoffs: I don’t think very many serious people believe it is the best way to decide a champion, but it is a very entertaining way to do it. People in general like playoffs. Americans have shown that they like them so much that they don’t really care about the regular season. We can debate the merits of that POV, but I think that any American soccer league — either with or without single table — is destined to have playoffs simply because there’s too much money to be lost otherwise.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 9, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Playoffs are really the only MLS games that get TV ratings

When the League’s number one priority is unlocking the cash cow of TV I doubt they are going to eliminate the very thing that people watch the most.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 9, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 9, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

We should ask why no other games get ratings

Is it because playoffs are just somehow better or more American, or is it because people know they can ignore the entire regular season and just tune into the playoffs?

If I’m a soccer fan who cares about Serie A, I know that Inter beating Milan 4-0 in week two of the season could very well be huge in who ends up winning it all. I know every game’s important. That’s just not true in MLS. Not every game is important. The Sounders, in fact, are in the process of trying to make sure that every game doesn’t matter this season. If they are successful, all the games where they played like crap will be tossed out, along with the games that they played well and we’ll start playing games that count.

For me, playoffs ended up killing whatever interest I had in the American sports. When I realized the regular season basically counts for nothing, I stopped watching regular season games. Why spend all that time watching 162, 82, or 16 games when it all goes in the trash anyway and you start over? When the playoffs came around, I realized I couldn’t bring myself to care about them either.

by CarlosT on Aug 9, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

The reason you watch...

Is because you like watching your team. Of course you want the game to count for something, but I think most people watch regular season games because they actually enjoy the games. Every game doesn’t have to be life and death for me to be interested. It helps, but it isn’t the only factor.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 9, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

So extend that logic

Let’s say you like the sport but don’t have a team in particular. If you’re going to watch at all, other than just randomly catching a game, when will it be? Playoffs. But maybe if every game counted toward the championship, you might get interested earlier on.

by CarlosT on Aug 9, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Except that every game last year did count

one more loss in the regular season and RSL doesn’t make it.

one more win by Sounders (against the proper opponent) and they take the Sheild and have home field.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 9, 2010 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

No amount of regular season wins, by anybody

Can win the championship, ever. In a league with playoffs, no regular season games count toward the championship. They count towards admittance into the semi-random crapshoot at the end that’s used to award the championship, but not the championship.

We could have dominated every single minute of every single regular season game last season, won every one of them 5-0, hauled in a perfect 90 points, and still not end the season as champions. On the other hand, you can have a crappy season, lose more games than you win, barely squeak by on goal difference, and yet all of next year you’ll be introduced as the “Defending Champions”. So, no, they don’t count.

The Supporters Shield is an afterthought to which they attached some nice parting gifts. It’s not the championship, and as long as there are the playoffs, will never be.

by CarlosT on Aug 9, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

The only difference between the Supporters Shield and MLS Cup

is a star on a crest, and people’s attitude towards it.

If someone wants to make the regular season mean more, it might be a good idea to talk about that accomplishment as if it means more.

Having talked to the man who founded the trophy and the league officials who adopted it into the official lexicon, it is hotly desired around the league.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 10, 2010 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

How many would trade?

Ask those same people who “hotly desire” it, if they had to pick just one, which one wound it be? In other words, would they prefer to be like Columbus or RSL last year?

If someone wants to make the regular season mean more, it might be a good idea to talk about that accomplishment as if it means more. (emphasis mine)

Even though we really know it actually doesn’t? Until a significant number answer “Columbus” to the question above, we’re just pretending. I actually suspect the number is zero, but there might be a contrarian or two in the crowd who’d answer the Shield just to be funny.

I don’t have Lexis-Nexis access, but I wonder how many articles would be returned on a search of “champion” near “Columbus” or “champion” near “Crew” since the end of last season. Whatever the number, I’m fairly certain that it’s dwarfed by a similar search using “Salt Lake” or “RSL”.

The Times’ power rankings today has an example. Columbus is tagged as “best in the East”. Technically, this could be about last year, but if it were, why not call them “Supporters Shield holders” or something like that? As for RSL? “Defending champs”. Not “eighth place finishers”, or “final wild card team” or anything that actually related to their regular season.

by CarlosT on Aug 11, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Supporters Shield gets all the bonuses of the MLS Cup except the star

that’s it

They make the CCL group stage
They get a trophy
their player bonus

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 11, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Start calling em the champions yourself

The USOC I think shows that competitions have as much prestige as we make them have.

For myself, I think the SS is of importance just slightly below the MLS cup, and weigh the accomplishment accordingly.

by Tohoya on Aug 11, 2010 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Champions of what?

If they were champions, why did we keep going? The USOC doesn’t keep going after the final. Someone wins, someone loses, and the competition ends, having crowned a champion.

If the season ended and we awarded the Supporters Shield, then it would be a championship. But the season doesn’t end there. If you say “end of the season”, people will quite rightly assume you mean after the MLS Cup Final. To distinguish, you have to say “end of the regular season”. The season isn’t over at the end of the regular season: there’s more to be played.

The most charitable thing I can say about the Supporters Shield is that it’s a league-wide counterpart to the NASL Heritage Cup or Cascadia Cup. It’s a nice to have, especially since MLS has blinged it up with some excellent toy surprises, but you’re not the champion.

by CarlosT on Aug 12, 2010 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

You are talking about personal psychology here.

What you would be best served doing is stepping back and asking yourself why you are motivated the way you are. Your position is not a majority one I guarantee you. Many people follow sports for the journey alone and the rules surrounding the journey do not actually change their enjoyment much at all.

I have had season tickets to the Mariners since 1994. I still buy them and go to games even when I know on Opening Day some seasons that they have no chance of competing for a title. I do this because I love the game and I love my team. When the Wild Card round was added I didn’t give up my tickets. If the playoffs extended even further I still would not give them up.

The end game motivation you are speaking of is not universal just as my own motivations are not universal. Just accept that you filter things differently instead of expecting the sporting world to conform to your own desires.

by Sec 108 on Aug 10, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here

Committed season ticked holders aren’t relevant to this discussion. The fact that the playoff games are the only ones that get decent ratings means that there are a significant number of people who aren’t “follow(ing) for the journey alone”, but instead show up at the end to see how it turns out. I found this unsurprising because regular season games are the chaff to the playoffs’ wheat.

If someone isn’t not already following MLS for some reason, then there aren’t a lot of compelling matches until the end of the season. A Sounders-Timbers game in the early rounds? Great for us involved, but who knows if it’ll end up making much of a difference?

A match between the top contenders in any European league, no matter when it is, will always matter, because that’s when you can do your most damage. Roma took four points out of six against Inter last in their two matches and they ended the season two points behind. If they had won that first match and the rest of the season had gone the same way, Roma would have won the title (they would have gotten two more points, but Inter would have gotten one less, so Roma would take it by a point).

There’s no regular season game in MLS that can do that. Sure, there’s making the playoffs versus not, and that does always come down to the odd point or goal here or there. But you still have to go to the playoffs to decide anything. And clearly a significant number of people are waiting for that point to tune in.

Finally, you said that you still follow the Mariners and go to games

“even when I know on Opening Day some seasons that they have no chance to competing for a title.”
I found that interesting, because one of the arguments most often advanced in favor of playoffs is that it avoid this kind of thing, that every team starts out the season with hope to win the championship.

by CarlosT on Aug 11, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're facts are wrong

TV ratings increase in the Playoffs

Attendence does not

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Aug 11, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't remember mentioning an attendance increase

If you were going by my use of “show up”, I meant as part of the MLS viewing audience.

Also, I just noticed this excellent clause in my comment above:

If someone isn’t not already following MLS for some reason
Uh, yeah, “isn’t not already”. Everyone, please replace that with “isn’t” or “is not”, whichever you prefer.

by CarlosT on Aug 11, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

My point is that you want people to think like you.

They do not. Each of us is different. Some watch all year no matter what. Some only watch the playoffs. Your proposed change will not bring the effect you are hoping for. If you removed the playoffs you would not increase viewership during the season. All you do is eliminate a fair number of people who only pay attention to the league for a couple weeks per year.

by Sec 108 on Aug 12, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, I see now.

I’m not saying I want people to think like me, I’m saying there’s some evidence that they already do. Because all sports in this country have playoffs (I can’t think of any that don’t, anyway), people have been trained to know, maybe even subconsciously, that if you want to see the games that really matter, you can skip the regular season and watch the playoffs. I don’t have the figures, but I would guess the viewership jump isn’t unique to MLS, that the NFL, NBA, and MLB get an increase in viewers for the playoffs as well?

I don’t know if removing the playoffs would have the effect of increasing viewership, it might very well not, at least right away. It would have the effect of making every game in the season count toward the championship. That might have the effect of bringing in the “want to see what happens” people much earlier.

Now that I think about it, a parity league like MLS would be great as a single table, no playoffs league, because the standings are constantly in flux. Dave said that one more win against the proper opponent and the Sounders take the Supporters Shield. How much more dramatic is it if it’s the whole enchilada? MLS without playoffs might be the most dramatic league in the world, and I’m not in the least kidding.

If people started to understand and feel that drama, a lot of games become extremely exciting, at all parts of the season. Let’s say a few years down the line the Sounders have fulfilled our wishes and become a powerhouse. Our matches against other powerhouse teams, say maybe LA, would be epic. It wouldn’t matter that it was week five or something like that, because Sounders-Galaxy would be a huge match no matter when it happened because it would be a huge step toward the championship for the winner.

by CarlosT on Aug 12, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry for sounding so harsh.

I totally agree that you are not an island with your position. I also do agree that say, like college football, there would be more juice to the early season games the way you want it since there would be no playoff. I just think it is such an ingrained part of our culture here that I doubt it will change. Let me give a piece of anecdotal evidence that I find not too uncommon.

My father-in-law is a sporting man. He plays tennis and rides his bike every day. He does road trips on his bike with a couple friends and he hunts regularly. When it comes to watching sports he just isn’t all that into it. However he watches the playoffs for almost every sport because in his words, “He knows he will not be watching crap teams.” He has no desire to watch a top flight team beat up on a middling team during the season.

If there were no playoffs he probably just would not watch at all since being a viewer of sports is lower on his agenda than getting outdoors and doing his own thing. So while changing the structure might get people who already care more jazzed about the regular season, it almost assuredly would lose the league some casual observers.

by Sec 108 on Aug 12, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

You didn't and don't sound harsh to me

And I hope I don’t to you either. We’re just talking (or typing), right?

Anyway, I suppose that we would lose those people, but Garber has said that the biggest challenge for MLS is the American who is a fan of soccer, but doesn’t follow MLS. There are a lot of those people, too, and I’m sure some of them are in the “playoff boost” numbers. Since most of those American soccer fans are following leagues that have the no-playoff format, they’d be quite comfortable with the idea. And honestly, it would be a good trade if we gave up people like your father in law, who only watches a few games a year, to gain people who would watch almost all of them.

by CarlosT on Aug 12, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, all good.

I know for me I did not pay attention to MLS until they gave us a team. Honestly I’m not sure if anything other than a rooting interest would have made me watch MLS. If we lost our team or I moved to a non-MLS market I am on the fence as to whether I would pay attention anymore.

by Sec 108 on Aug 12, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

On the topic of moving

If you’re going to do any moving at all… I’d say make sure the sides are as balanced as they can be each year. So that would be move 1 over next year. Then possibly moving it back in 2+ years.

If it going to be single table it should always be a balanced schedule, imo. I am one who is not for pro/rel stuff. I don’t think just because others do it one way and it “works” doesn’t mean it’s how everyone should do it.

by majora999 on Aug 7, 2010 9:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Is it crazy to ask for a draw ever year?

I for one don’t want to see us fall into conference power struggles. Somebody mentioned how the seahawks made the play-offs every year on the back of a weak western division. So why don’t we just have a random draw each season? Sure it’s not traditionally American and may confuse some people but I don’t see why it can’t work.

J Sep Posted:
1 game vs each team in the other conference (10 games)
2 games vs each team in your conference (18 games)
2 extra games vs rival teams (in our case, Portland and Vancouver obviously).

So even if say Vancouver was in Group B and we were in A, we could have it so we still play them twice and possibly Portland 3 times if they were in A with us.

by Dylema on Aug 8, 2010 2:03 PM PDT reply actions  

I think you really start to lose the point of conferences with that arrangement

As far as I see it, the only real compelling argument for conferences is to ensure a certain amount of rivalries/balance. Once you take away the stability of conferences, they really start to lose their meaning. At that point, they are merely a scheduling tool and one that would be easier to accomplish by having a single table combined with playoffs.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 8, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

True.

Goodpoint but does the MLS want to go up to 38 games? I read some where that they were contemplating whether or no to go to 34 for next years season.

by Dylema on Aug 8, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

They probably don't

But my point is that the arbitrary nature of limiting who plays whom in a single table is no worse than the arbitrary nature of creating conferences via draw.

Because if it's not Love | Then it's the bomb ... | That will bring us together

by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 8, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ultimately

I would love a single table. That doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon. So, I think it’d also be cool to do what the NFL does, and break things into lots of little conferences. Winner of each conference moves on, then the next X number also qualify. You’d get to compete for the Supporter’s Shield for winning the league, but then also the shield for winning your conference. Also, expand the number of games to accomodate for the new teams entering. It’s awesome right now because everyone gets the perfect home/away against everyone. Expanding to 34 next season and having less friendlies would be a welcome change. Then 36 when Montreal joins. I know this topic has come up before and I know there are lots of other factors to consider, but boy would it be awesome.

by chrisperry1983 on Aug 14, 2010 10:46 AM PDT reply actions  

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