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Sounders Central Midfielders 2010 Reviewed through Lens of Tools

Seattle Sounders Central Midfielders Ratings based on 2010 performance

Our discussion of soccer tools goes right to the Center now. This should lead to discussion about differing skills for defensive midfielders (Osvaldo Alonso), box-to-box guys (Brad Evans) and attacking mids (Freddie Ljungberg in early 09, so you won't see those on the chart). Again a reminder as to what the tools are, and how we arrived at the ratings you see.

Here's the initial post on tools for outfield players, and below the break are the definitions of each tool and discussion about the players.

Star-divide

Technical Ability - This encompasses what is done ON-ball. Things like dribbling, passing, man-on-man defense and shooting skills.

Tactical Judgement - This is about awareness of shape of both sides, off-ball runs, zonal defense, passing into runs.

Offensive Skills - How the player's tools translate when the team HAS the ball.

Defensive Skills - How the player's tools translate when the team LACKS the ball.

Physique - Size, Strength, Speed, Stamina are all in this one tool. How a player uses their strengths and minimize their weaknesses here is also important.

The ratings were derived from the frontpage authors at the time (Dave, Jeremiah, sidereal, malcontentjake) and Graham at WAGNH. They are based on performance in 2010, and are a review, not projection.

 This gives us a look at the relationship between Offense, Defense and relative position on the field. I have insisted for some time that Evans is not a CAM but a box-to-box CM. Mike Seamon is another CM, while the other three that saw time last year were more defensive in nature. You can see this as Brad and Mike have more points in offense than defense, while Alonso, Nathan Sturgis and Peter Vagenas all lean to the Defense side of things.

I expect that a CAM player would have more than a point towards offense and would have a much higher technical rating. They are expected to operate with the ball at their feet and create magic. None of the current batch of Sounder Center Mids displayed those type of skills. Alonso can work the ball at times, but to be a strong starting CAM we'd need to see more threaded through-balls.

Looking at the tactical attribute one notices that we rate the Evans very well. This is part of how his ability to play so many roles is captured. His positional defense is strong, even if he is a bit weak one-on-one on the right flank. But his positional sense when he was a forward was extraordinary even if he didn't score. He was right where he needed to be.

The scale of the ratings here reinforces what some noticed in the Forwards discussion, that with an average MLSer being a 6 in every tool and a CM, what does that make a great MLS player? Since a vast majority of our soccer viewing time is of MLS games we decided that the best in MLS would get the 9s and 10s. When players transfer here they can get ratings, or when we talk Reserve and Academy players they will get projections. But for now, let's focus on the league where we will see 34 or more games, rather than further muddy the waters by inserting leagues that we don't watch as much.

Since the box-to-box CM is the gold standard for the ratings system, and Nathan Sturgis was the rough example of a league average version of that, the question also arises as to who would be the best at that role? I would have to say Shalrie Joseph. Great with the ball at his feet, positionally sound, a strong player on offense and defense who doesn't have great speed, but who uses his size to his advantage, and some one who as a CM could wind up as an MVP.

Technical: 8
Tactical: 9
Offense: 9
Defense: 9
Physique: 8

Hopefully seeing the Center Mids continues to grow understanding of the tools system we are deplying. Where are your disagreements? Key Findings? Who would you say is the best CAM in the league in 2010 and how would you rate him?

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Nice! But you need more data points.

I like what you’re doing here its great! However basing this off 5 peoples rankings isn’t enough. I understand that the data might not have been there last season but maybe you can set up a user poll for this upcoming season or ask other blogger/writers to rank more. just my thoughts.

by Jeremy Kim on Jan 22, 2011 9:39 AM PST reply actions  

We're definately looking at adding more data points

But since the tools concept is very new to soccer I needed to work with a small group to establish what the tools are. I full expect that the 2011 player reviews via ratings will be open sourced to the readers of this site.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 22, 2011 9:44 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Great

Great, I can’t wait to see it.

by Jeremy Kim on Jan 22, 2011 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not really understanding

the nature of “physique” here. To me, at least, Evans is the clear stud in this group. He’s faster than anyone in this group. He’s stronger than anyone in this group. I believe he’s also taller than anyone in this group. One of his main attributes is his work rate, which is tied into desire/passion, but is also very much part and parcel of…. his physique (how hard he has worked on conditioning, strength, explosiveness, etc.

So, obviously, I’m missing something here. What?

by swansuite on Jan 22, 2011 10:43 AM PST reply actions  

Physiqe isn't just the raw data

but how that’s applied in the soccer environment.

So while I disagree that he’s best at the things you listed (I think he’s 2nd in each actually, but to a different man), I don’t think that he applies those as well as Alsono.

I think the wingers discussion will open up more about Physiqe. Because there’s a guy with a 9 that will stun you.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 22, 2011 11:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks

for the clarification. It’s too bad that 1) soccer teams in general don’t measure these things (like the NFL/NBA) and 2) they wouldn’t report them even if they did. We’ll have to agree to disagree on Evan’s relative merit athletically.

by swansuite on Jan 23, 2011 7:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Sounders do measure these things

In fact it will be done next Thurs/Friday at the VMAC

And yes, they won’t share much

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 23, 2011 9:03 AM PST up reply actions  

It's always struck me as odd

that most American sports love to share the info and, in fact, using it as a bragging, intimidation point, but soccer has always eschewed that kind of closure. Same thing with injuries. Any thoughts on why?

by swansuite on Jan 23, 2011 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Basketball measurements are silly, though.

No point guard wants to be under six feet, and recently no center seems to want to be an even seven feet tall. And weights are often underreported. I’m not sure that bad data is better than eyeballed data.

by yuniform on Jan 24, 2011 7:18 PM PST up reply actions  

"physique" is pretty subjective...

but I need to see something that creates a clear advantage in the pitch due to raw physical ability: ie speed to blow by defenders, strength and balance to stay on you feet or knock someone else off theirs, height and/or leaping ability to get in the air and win headers. Desire/passion is measured in Offense or Defense ratings for me…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Jan 22, 2011 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Also injured

more than anyone in the group.

by lysander on Jan 22, 2011 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

One of the things that I find fascinating is how fans/writers/bloggers/etc see thing versus how coaches see things

Peter Vagenas is a perfect example of this. He had been the biggest whipping boy (I am sure he was happy when Noonan was signed) in Seattle for most of two seasons. He was known more as “Back Pass Pete” and was usually criticized for his salary and wasting a roster spot.
 
In your rankings of him, you have him at the bottom of all but tactical. Yet, when he was healthy (which was not often), he did get playing time. Sigi liked him and praised him for his tactical awareness, even said he was one of the top players on the team in this. Yet, SAH have him as below average,

I am not saying who is right or wrong, but I just found it interesting how coaches and non-coaches see things.

by Coug1990 on Jan 22, 2011 10:51 AM PST reply actions  

All true

Certainly no one here is going to claim to be a better evaluator of talent than Sigi or his staff. But since they aren’t likely to provide detailed scouting reports of the players to the community, we want to help quantify it a bit.

On the other hand, Pete’s no longer with us, so maybe the staff did come to agree…

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Jan 22, 2011 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Sturgis was picked away in the expansion draft

I’m sure Sigi would have liked to have kept him.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Jan 22, 2011 1:03 PM PST up reply actions  

I am sure Sigi would have liked to keep him, Nyassi and Le Toux

But, when he had the chance to protect them in the draft, he didn’t.

by Coug1990 on Jan 22, 2011 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Also, if I had to rate "leadership" for outfield players

Vagenas would be at the very top, even above Keller.

That dynamic can contribute to a lot of minutes, but let’s also remember that Vagenas would have been the 4th CM if everyone was healthy. They didn’t think great about him, just decent.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 22, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

I am not really trying to defend Vegenas

His production did not equal his cap hit. He is the definition of a replacement level player. In my thinking, I would say the exact same things about Sturgis.

What Sturgis has over Vagenas is that he is 23 instead of 33 like Vagenas. HIs best days are ahead of him. Vagenas is too injury prone and you are right, they do not need his leadership, as they might have needed as an expansion team.

I do understand they did not think great about him as an all around player. I am just saying from what I have read Sigi say is that he thought highly of his tactical skills.

by Coug1990 on Jan 22, 2011 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Providing an option

I was always a bit of a Vagenas apologist- so here I am, even after-the-fact, trying to defend him. I fully believe that he was what made the Sounder’s possession game tick. We all agree that he lacked the creative vision to thread even a single brilliant ball- but I have yet to see any other Sounder work as hard or as successfully at becoming an available option for his teammates. He could be counted on, without fail, to be moving into available space when the Sounder’s had the ball, especially in tight situations.

While this might not have justified his paycheck, when you couple it to his leadership (like Dave mentioned), experience, locker room presence, and contagious high practice effort- he was worth it. He had an awesome completion rate- sure- that’s why we call him pass back Pete. But the effect he had on morale and the team’s pass completion rate made him worthy of a starting role… at the time.

I would love to see El Flaco take this to a new level for us in the coming season.

by Little old me on Jan 22, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

that "tactical awarenes" certainly didn't translate to passing vision

all to often I watched Vagenas pass for the sake of passing to a man that had nowhere to go with the ball. I feel like he would always make the shortest and safest pass. Now, there IS something to be said for this, DO NOT get me wrong, and I think this is what coaches liked about him… but at SOME point there needs to be a pass that can unlock a defense, and it never really seemed to come from him

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Jan 22, 2011 1:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Not really sold on this, but it’s a very interesting concept. The idea may be right, but the execution may just need some polishing.

Also, don’t agree with Sturgis’ technical rating. He is extremely strong technically – he’s just not flashy and doesn’t get the credit for it. I’d probably rank him tops among your midfield group in that category.

by realslfan on Jan 22, 2011 12:56 PM PST reply actions  

"technical" abilty is "flashiness"

how can I possibly give high technical marks to a player who never really demonstrated dribbling ability and couldn’t seem to pass to his left? Very few people around here were bigger defenders of Sturgis than me, but he wasn’t on the pitch for his technical abilities, to be sure…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Jan 22, 2011 1:18 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

What about the execution needs polishing?

That’s a rather vague statement to throw out there, and certainly one that needs explaining so that we can improve.

What we are doing at this point is establishing a baseline for conversation, so that we aren’t idiots talking about how a player is better due to desire, passion, etc. Every player has those things. Skill changes games.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 22, 2011 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

So why not do that?

Actually talk about the players instead of giving them an arbitrary number that readers have to back track to other blog posts to find a baseline that currently seems pretty vague? For instance you talk about Sharlie Joseph being perhaps the best CM in the league and you give him 9’s and 8’s. But then I thought that the scale was based on current skill in the MLS, so if he is the best why isn’t he a 10 if the 10 point scale is relative to current MLS talent. The decimal system makes it seem like the number is supposed to be more precise when it is. And if it is all relative why not just rate on something a bit more understandable like a percentile ranking system.

I think these very subjective scales would be represented in plain english or a numerical system that translates to plain english. Or perhaps even a scale that has plain english meaning that is easy to reference. I recently just had the “pleasure” of taking the GRE and had to be judged on a few writing samples. I was given a score on a 6 point scale in .5 increments and had this (http://www.ets.org/gre/general/scores/understand/analytical_descriptions/) to refer to. Even if you did something like that I think it would be more clear and convey to the reader what you mean, especially if you intend on using the system to judge players throughout the season on their form or what not. A fixed set of standards that are based on your opinion of their cometence as opposed to a players relative ranking to the current quality of the league seems easier to understand.

-Ben R.

by reesebw on Jan 23, 2011 1:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Saying someone is the best CM

Does not mean they have the best technical/tactical/etc. The best at each role would have different component attributes. This is related to the weighting discussion that we had concerning forwards. While a pure 10s player would be amazing in every role, they would never play in MLS.

As for percentile v 10 point scales, that would just be a difference in presentation. what’s the difference between a 60% and a 6?

10 is the league’s best at that attribute (Donovan for offense, probably technical for example)
9 is great
8 is good
7 is better than average
6 is league average starter, this has been stated dozens of times.
5 is player who reguarly appears
4 is a replacement level player
3 is a flaw
2 is a major flaw

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 23, 2011 9:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Well that's the thing

Relative ranking vs. a standards ranking are different thing and that’s what makes the current scale murky in my opinion. League best does not always mean great and league best can fluctuate a lot with the addition of DPs and form throughout the season. Going back to standardized tests the GRE uses an 800 point scoring system on math and verbal. The 75th percentile is 720 and 550 respectively due to distribution of scores. Just to illustrate that there is a difference between relative ranking and a ranking on a specific standard. And perhaps I’m reading too much into it, but coming from a background that studied a bit a statistical methodology it is hard to follow when you mix those to. When you say an average player is a 6 that really doesn’t have much meaning in telling me about actual skill since 6 is the middle of a bell curve. Again this also is seen in the confusion of calling them attributes versus rank which are two different things, yet the language gets mixed up. Because really if it’s a relative scale you are not rating them a 7 in an area, you are somehow giving them a subjective rating and then comparing them to other ratings of all other mls players. That’s all, I’m done being a social science nerd for the day.

-Ben R.

by reesebw on Jan 23, 2011 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I totally dig the difficulties of creating objective scales from subjective data

It is literally what I do as a full time job.

But at the same point I don’t think that it is realistic to create comparisons outside of MLS for MLS players. No one here watches enough players to have a real basis for comparison.

It would be like asking a taster at Budweiser to compare his own beer to a boutique brewery from Delaware. The scale would be out of whack.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jan 23, 2011 5:31 PM PST up reply actions  

So are we talking Iron Hill or Dogfish?

I would say beer has a lot to do with my subjective data when analyzing players on the Sounders. Perhaps that is the reason why my evaluations are out of whack…

Nos audietis in somniis
Nos audietis in altum

by chrisso on Jan 24, 2011 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

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