Return of the Protectinator
by sidereal on Nov 8, 2011 7:38 AM PST
in Sounders: MLS Regular Season
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PrintIt's almost that time again, folks. Another team is going to enter the hallowed land of MLS and in doing so they're going to take some of our stuff. And don't kid yourselves. Unless the Seattle Sounders and the incoming Montreal Impact work out some sort of deal, we're going to lose a player. Seattle's a tremendously successful and deep franchise and the list of players that have played significant minutes in big games this season is much more than 11 deep, which is all we get to protect.
Last season we gave the readers a chance to vote on protected 11 before the Portland Timbers and Vancouver Whitecaps held their expansion draft. Our list of most protected differed from the final list by three players. While Sounder at Heart readers protected Blaise Nkufo, Patrick Ianni, and Leo Gonzalez, the team protected James Riley, Brad Evans, and Nate Jaqua. The front office seems to have the better of that comparison, as Nkufo, Ianni, and Gonzalez went unpicked by the two expansion teams.
This season we're going to do it again. As far as we can tell, only Michael Tetteh (as a Generation Adidas player) is immune from the expansion draft and so we must pick 11 to protected from the entire rest of the roster. Make your 11 picks and then see what the rest of the community thinks.
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Blaphamy!
As of right now, four among us have rejected OUR LORD! You know who you are. Sinners. Commence the smiting!
I was one of those 4
Though after some further thinking I’d go back and add him were I able to edit and drop Wahl.
Very tough choices.
Ended up picking;
Zakuani, Rosales, Neagle, Montero, Ochoa, Hurtado, Parke, Fucito, Estrada, Alonso, & Friberg.. (TOUGH choices with Fernandez & Wahl)..
Had to eliminate two, but have a gut feeling Fernandez might not be around next year or in our plans down the road. Wahl just drew a short straw. =(
by TheDarkPassenger on Oct 23, 2011 6:56 PM PDT reply actions
really?
wow… leave fernandez unprotected? he’s had a GREAT season filling in on the wing for zakuani. 9 goals… that’s 9. that puts him on par or beyond many strikers in the league. i understand zakuani will be back next year but there’s room for them both to fill in on the wings with our busy schedule in CCL and US open cup play. i’d easily dump fucito for fernandez, heck I’d dump fucito for wahl. fucito had an entire season to step up and show us his stuff, and he basically flopped when it came to putting ballss in the net (which is what a striker is supposed to do). i respect his hard work ethic, but it pays off in exactly that… hard work ethic, not goals.
my 11- rosales, zakuani, montero, fernandez, hurtado, parke, alonso, riley, ochoa, wahl, friberg.
i might be interested in swapping out wahl for neagle because of the upside on neagle. but we can’t be a team of midfielders. wahl contributed to our attack and did a decent job on defense (although he gives a lot of ground and isn’t terribly quick.
They're paying Fernandez too much money to have him share the left wing.
And he has proven that he’s just not great on the other side. Either one of them will have to take over CAM or one of them will be out of here.
My dream is to have #TheTrialist play CAM witk Zak and Flac holding down the wings.
Now THAT would be a powerful midfield.
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Oct 23, 2011 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
fernandez
Is a better player now then he was in the beginning of the season. Also with the injuries we’ve seen at midfield i expect that we’ll want to be extremely deep again there next year.
by python6114 on Oct 23, 2011 10:17 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It doesn't make sense
to play Mauro at CAM when he is by far the best crosser on the team. He has been able to find space consistently while playing on the wing, and is one of the best crossers from the right side in the league. Plus one of the great things about the way we play is that the three more offensive mids are free to move all over the field throughout the game. Often when Mauro, Flaco, and the Swede/Evans play together you will never see them stay static in terms of their position on the field. The fluidity of our midfield has been one of the biggest reasons why they’ve scored so many goals this year.
hard work ethic = defensive turnovers/red cards/pk's
You are really missing on Fucito, he caused defenders so much trouble and created so many of Montero’s goals this year and others it would be crazy not to protect him, he is talented and I guarantee he would be gone if we left him out. Sigi never gave him the starting job which was a mistake – he immedietly made an impact in the second RSL game causing multiple turnovers with his pressure that led to Sounders possession and ultimately shots on goal, not to mention he earned a pk. Do you not remember earlier in the year vs RSL when he got by Olave and got him sent off? He has incredible speed/acceleration and a rocket shot that is very accurate, but his job is to make runs and cause problems freeing up Montero and others to score which he did very well this year.
And keep Tyson Wahl??? Really? No offense and too slow to guard any wing in MLS. You want to keep a guy because he can kick a corner? The guy can’t even kick with his right foot! That is crazy talk. I left both RB and LB off the list – our talent is in midfield and we need to keep our talent, Riley, Leo, Wahl can all be replaced but sheesh, Leo is twice is good as Wahl. And yes of course we should keep Fernandez, he is the most skilled player on the team, just needs to work harder.
My Protected 11:
My protected 11: Zakuani, Rosales, Montero, Alonso, Ochoa, Friberg, Fernandez, Evans, Neagle, Fucito, Parke.
My locks are the first nine on that list. Had five “on the bubble”: Fucito, Parke, Riley, Wahl, Hurtado. Chose Fucito b/c he’s young and will only get better. Left me to decide between four defenders, and I thought Parke was the most consistent this year.
Small change...
Too late now, but if I could make a change to my ballot, I’d protect Hurtado instead of Evans.
the main people to protect
montero rosales Steve Z hurtado Ochoa Fucito Alonso
by alexyepz on Oct 23, 2011 7:06 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
The players that I'd leave exposed, but expect to get picked are:
Ianni, Friberg, and Neagle.
Neagle would suck to lose, but how many wide players do we have? He’s 4th in terms of depth with a healthy roster and has Estrada, Montano, and Levesque behind him. Fucito can sometimes work outside as well. We can afford to lose Neagle with our depth out wide.
Evans will get protected. He’s a little better than Friburg and one of Sigi’s boys. But part of me thinks we should leave them both unprotected since we can afford to lose one and be fine with the other. Plus I’m wondering if we’ll see Alvaro as a CM to make room for Zakuani, Rosales, and him.
I think we’ll protect Ochoa. He’s been looking good, we traded a spot to get him to begin with, and Sigi likes him. A young target forward is something we should keep.
-Ben R.
friberg over evans
while i think evans has his strengths, he doesn’t distribute the ball as well as friberg does. he is sigi’s boy though so sadly i think that means friberg is left out in the cold.
i disagree
Evans has been great at distrubiting, his assist at chivas was a good example of that.
by python6114 on Oct 23, 2011 10:19 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Great at distributing?
You are putting one assist vs Chivas as an example of great distributing? The guy turned the ball over like 10 time in the first RSL game causing Sigi to sub Friberg into CM then starting Friberg there in the second game. All Sigi ever says is Evans wins balls in the air – and I think that’s literally all he does, if he gets it at his feet he just gives it to the other team. There’s a reason Columbus didn’t protect this guy three years ago, why are we protecting him? Friberg is solid in CM, he has a great cross and makes quick one touch passes, if we want to play a possession game, Friberg is the guy, I would prefer someone who can take a guy one on one and hit a few 35 yard shots every once in a while AND do what Friberg does but hey, I’ll take what I can get, this is MLS. But Evans is not a starting CM.
If you're offering the RSL game as an example of representative play we should set the entire team on fire
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 8, 2011 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
I disagree
While our team wide effort was terrible I truly believe that one of our biggest problems that game was lack of possession – if you start Friberg in the middle and our TOP rises 20 to 30% we don’t lose by 3 – and two goals in the 2nd game suddenly matters. And regardless of this – are you telling me Brad Evans hasn’t been terrible all year? He flubs shots, traps, and passes regularly, and constantly kills attacks with TO or just poor passes. He has been slightly more effective as a wing because then he just has to make runs, but other than headers he is a major liability.
Yes, I am telling you Brad Evans hasn't been terrible all year.
Brad Evans is a pretty good player and the least of the Sounders problems.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 8, 2011 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
But not worth protecting
I agree he is fine for depth with all the games we play, but he should not be starting CAM in a playoff game. MLS talent level has increased significantly in the past few years and Evans talent level has not. I would agree he is the least of the Sounders problems IF Sigi wouldn’t start him over Friberg/Alvoro/Neagle but he consistently does. He is unskilled and injury prone and should not be in the conversation to protect. Again, with the Sounders style of play and possession being highly valued Friberg is a much better CAM. If our style of play was to sit back and counter attack then maybe Evans headers would be more useful, but to start a guy because he can direct a few goal kicks forward bothers me as much as starting Wahl because he can kick corners.
Okay, for one the Sounders don't use a CAM.
And it’s more than a semantic distinction because a CM and CAM mid are different players with different responsibilities and the Sounders tactical approach wouldn’t work if they did use a CAM. So if that’s the criteria you’re basing your complaints on, you need to reevaluate your criteria.
For two, Brad Evans is a better player than Neagle and he is not clearly worse than Friberg.
For three, Sigi has not started Evans over Alvaro this season. Alvaro has been first-choice since April.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 8, 2011 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
Please explain what Evans does that you like
You keep saying how good he is but not giving any points to back this up.
I would keep Neagle over Evans because he has more upside, he is younger, faster, and has a nack for making big plays and scoring difficult goals. While he makes mistakes he makes up for it by beating guys one v one and creating dangerous opportunities and finishing on big plays. Brad Evans when healthy enough to get on the field does not create any sort of spark, he makes dangerous runs but has no finishing ability, again, other than his headers he generally is an attack killer. 3 of his 6 goals this season were PK’s. I think his best days were in the past.
Alvoro has been first choice since Zakuani got injured, prior to his injury he was on the bench and Evans was starting.
He's a good defensive player.
He’s composed in possession. He’s insanely fit and can run box-to-box all game. He’s not a flashy passer but he’s a good one. He has very good tactical sense. He’s a decent finisher for a box-to-box mid who has been unfairly made out to be poor because of two highlight reel bad plays. He’s versatile.
And yes, Alvaro was on the bench to start the season. It was made clear that it was far more an issue of his frustration with not being able to adapt to his expected role than any sort of talent issue. Sigi made that perfectly clear before Zakuani was injured.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 8, 2011 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
I would say average at best on defense
I was at the Gold Cup game the US tried him at RB and it wasn’t pretty. I completely agree he can run box to box but would have to counter that health is a major part of fitness and he is often injured. I agree he is versatile and can play multiple positions but would argue he does not play any one position well, which is great for a bench player, but not for a starter. And his finishing ability is inconsistent at best, not good enough in my opinion for a starting midfielder in MLS, in fact Alonso (who has steadily improved unlike Evans) is a better finisher than Evans, and scoring is probably one of Alonso’s biggest weaknesses. Evans simply isn’t very skilled fundamentaly, poor trapping and passing skills, I really think that the guy you pair with Alonso’s strength needs to be trapping and passing. Being composed in possession is useless when you mistrap or mispass every other touch, you cant have someone in that position turning the ball over at the rate Evans has this year.
As a bench player he is good, but I would rather protect Neagle, Fucito, or even Carrasco over Evans.
you are dinging Evans CM defense based on a dozen minutes at RB?
That’s just odd.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
CAM
Ok I guess I am referring to the CM position that is not Alonso (who is clearly the more defensive CM), the other CM seems to have more attacking responsibility as far as holding the ball and distributing the ball as far as Sigi’s tactics go in most games. Evans skills to not fit this role at all in my opinion.
I consider myself someone who cuts Evans very little slack
But he hasn’t been TERRIBLE. It’s just that when he missed shots, he tends to miss spectacularly.
I prefer Friberg, but Evans would honestly start on a fair few teams in this league.
La Vecchia Signora Forever!
or how about...
just not as good as you want him to be. At least here, your argument is much better served without using ridiculous hyperbole.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 9, 2011 7:43 AM PST up reply actions
Leaving someone open doesn't really speak to players skills
but the team as a whole, their needs, and opinions. We left LeToux exposed and protected Jaqua… We’ve protected Jaqua and left Nkufo exposed as well…
Evans is not the best player in the league, but he’s a good player of MLS starting quality. I think Friberg and Evans are comparable players in value that offer a few differences in style of play to the midfield. I don’t see how anyone argues that either one of them is leaps and bounds above the other. The only area where I see Friberg as infinitely superior to Evans is Tweeting ability.
-Ben R.
I would argue that their Tweeting ability is equivalent to their playing ability.
They just do things in different ways; Evans is an indispensable straight man. He’s the Teller to Friberg’s Penn.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 8, 2011 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
if I have the strategery right
clubs should wait until after 11/23 before letting any meaningful Big New Contracts come through. Based on whatever international transfer windows and such, is that a meaningful delay? Or, you know, meaningless.
...but what do I know?
Riley is a good player, a solid citizen and good guy. I left him off, based on a fairly errant last quarter of a season defensively. His runs forward may be made redundant with Z back. We can only lose one. out of the 11 I didn’t pick. I hope we can keep him and let him focus more on defending.
Zakuani plays on the left
Riley plays on the right.
I think Riley’s overlapping runs up forward are fantastic and a key to opening up space for outside players to exploit. Let’s not forget his pass that led to the own goal in the last match.
Also we have very little depth at RB and I wouldn’t want us to be scrambling to find a player to cover for him in the off season.
-Ben R.
Two things...
I’d like Riley to be little more offensive-minded. He’s had some open looks at goal this year that he’s chosen not to take advantage of. How nice would it be to have a solid defender that wasn’t afraid to take a shot every now and then?
The other thing is that I don’t think we’ll be “scrambling” to find defensive players in the offseason. I’d imagine Hanauer & Co. already have a pretty extensive list of players to go after.
My strategy would be
to protect every person on the starting 11 minus those that you are 99% sure would never get stolen. Basically that is left back and keeper (since we don’t have one). That still leaves us to protect 2 players that won’t be starting. I think it’s silly to expose ourselves in a position that we have little depth and has a likelihood of getting picked (he’s already been stolen twice). I’d rather leave Evans and Friberg exposed than Riley simply because of depth issues.
-Ben R.
A lot of love for Hurtado
Didn’t expect quite so many votes for him, to be honest. Wasn’t as solid this year as he was in 2010. Still a rock in the back, but I left him unprotected. I happen to think we’re going to sign quite a few defenders in the offseason.
Wouldn’t mind if we protected him instead of Evans though, even though I chose Evans in my protected 11 (Sigi loves him.)
For me it would come down to...
Fucito, Friberg, Riley, Evans and Wahl. Picked Friberg because I think he has more upside and would be more likely to get picked.
Thought OBW would be a no-brainer, but it looks like most disagree. Again, it’s all about the upside. He’s a big risk, but I want him back. If Sigi & Co. think he won’t be back anytime soon, or that his injury would prevent him from being selected, I’d go with Friberg in his place.
And whoever didn’t pick Montero, did you just forget him? Or are you either expecting him to leave MLS for good to Europe, or rather that his salary would be a deterrent to being picked in the expansion draft?
Even if he leaves MLS
The Sounders get a nice paycheck since it would be from a transfer. Why would you let money just walk right out the door?
Ah yes I forgot about that.
I will just assume the (now) 2 people who left him off are biased because they think he’s lazy or overpaid. Neither of which is true. Or they just forgot him.
On OBW...
…my thought is that we don’t need to protect him, b/c why would Montreal take a risk on a guy who may never play again b/c of a blood clot issue?
Very much agree
If you only get to select a handful of players out of the entire MLS, why risk it on a guy who’s health is so up in the air?
by Derek R on Oct 23, 2011 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Plus he looked good for a few games sure, but I don't think that he did enough to justify
Montreal taking a chance on him if you consider how much of an unknown he is in terms of contribution as well as the injuries.
White very likely isn't our most attractive option...
…even when healthy. He’s got physical talent that has gone almost completely unrealized in MLS. We’re going to end up exposing someone with at least a decent track record and less injury questions.
When healthy he was our best option
though now we have Ochoa. White’s PP90 is over 1.0, though with a low (but not insignificant) amount of minutes. If you want better reliability you could choose Wahl, Riley, or Evans, but I believe those three are replaceable if it came to it. I’d rather take the chance on a healthy White.
not really the point...
…he was the best option of a meagre lot, partially due to Fucito not being given a chance in the small/small pairing. His potential use back before his health issues doesn’t make him any less of an expensive journeyman by Montreal’s standards.
No one. We're all fans with our own opinions.
Please go to another site if you feel the need to insult fellow posters. Thanks.
by Menthu Ra on Oct 24, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
I wish I had 14 spots
I’d like to protect
Defenders: Parke, Hurtado, Riley
Midfielders: Zakuani, Flaco, Evans, Friedberg, Alonso, Neagle, Rosales, Carrasco
Strikers: Fucito, Montero, Ochoa
If I had to start throwing people out of the lifeboat they’d probably go in this order: (easiest to hardest decision)
Carrasco
Friedberg (I defer to Sigi here and Evans seems to be starting over him recently)
Fucito (I know, it’s blasphemy but I think ochoa/montero fits the style that Sigi wants to play better than a fucito/montero pairing)
That last one is a real toss up for me, since I have such a small sample size with Ochoa.
by Andrew Jennings on Oct 23, 2011 7:29 PM PDT reply actions
The one thing about Fucito
is that I have always viewed him as Montero insurance, because of anyone on our roster he is the one who can play Montero’s withdrawn striker role the closest to Montero. I like having Fucito on the roster even if the Ochoa/OBW Montero pairing is better for the team Fucito gives us protection from injury and European paydays
by ClaypidgeonCoug on Oct 23, 2011 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Exposing Fucito is a chance
It’s possible he’ll be taken, but his relative lack of production in MLS play justifies leaving him off, I think. I chose to protect Evans over him (my other 10 are exactly the players in green atm, excluding Friberg).
I had to protect Carrasco
Anyone who gets compared to the Honey Badger gets an automatic vote in my book.
I assume that people who leave off Alonso and Zakuani are having a laugh
but then they pick Alonso. What kind of laugh is that? At least throw Sanyang in there.
Nos Audietis
All my attention is now on seeing if Brad Evans makes it to the community protected 11
then I’ve got 10/11 of the picks. I’m an individual, like everyone else!
C’mon buddy
Fernandez
Is Alvaro’s contract for one more year or is it up after this season?
I really don't understand the Neagle love
On a healthy roster w/ Zakuani, Rosales, and Fernandez he’s not going to start much at all, and may struggle to even get on the 18. He’s a player we can afford to lose and probably won’t notice he is missing very often.
-Ben R.
I picked him for the season after next
He was in the second half of my list but here’s why I picked him. He’s a good young player that’s still developing. I don’t believe we’ll be able to keep both Zakuani and Fernandez for more than a season or two, and as good as Rosales is he’s going to be 31 next season and 32 the season after that. We’re going to need to cut back on his minutes if we’re playing close to 50 games a year.
by Andrew Jennings on Oct 23, 2011 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
Zak, Rosales, and Flaco will not stick around as a trio longer than next year. Rosales will retire to Argentina, or Flaco or Zak will try their hand in Europe. Plus, all have been injured at points, and Neagle is on the rise. Having 4 starting quality wingers at decent salaries is not something you throw away.
we've got three competitions next year as well...
…along with a thin roster at forward even if you wrongly assume the above 3 will play regularly in all 3 competitions. Neagle will get playing time if he’s around, and he’s one of the better scoring options of the second tier.
by nimajneb on Oct 23, 2011 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Really?
How would you describe us at thin at that position? Behind Neagle there’s Levesque, Montano, and Estrada. Tetteh is being groomed as a LB, but plays LM as well. Friberg, although not naturally a wide player, can also play wide. I think wide players are where we have the most depth actually. I want to win all 3 competitions as well, but it’d be silly to prioritize protecting Neagle over leaving someone like Riley, our only RB who is a completely decent MLS starter with 7 years league experience open at the cost of a rookie winger that will be starting on the bench in our league games and might not even be the first choice sub for that position. Evans/Friburg is another example of MLS capable starters that are top 2 in terms of our depth that I’d have a hard time justifying not protecting in order to save Neagle.
-Ben R.
as mike said, "at forward"
we are thin. I’m not really going to argue Riley vs. Neagle since, for all Riley’s defensive faults, I would protect both (given the well-known depth issues at RB). When you combine salary level, upside, and scoring ability Neagle is a very important component of keeping this team deep over the long haul.
Even if both Friberg and Evans are still with the team and our attacking mids remain entirely healthy (this is pretty unrealistic), Neagle will get starts in secondary fixtures at wing.
With current personnel, we’re three deep at forward with league average or above performance, and Neagle is a potential means of changing that without going out and spending limited funds.
The same can be said of Evans and Friberg
We’re stupid deep at midfield. I could see a case for leaving all of those guys unprotected and make Montreal take one of our better backups at a position we’re deep at rather than taking one of our worse backups at a position we have less depth. Either way, though, NEagle is younger and has more upside than either of the two, so I think he’s the better choice for protection.
agree about starting, disagree about making the bench
i think neagle is an easy inclusion as a sub. he comes off the bench and brings great energy. the way he runs at defenders, not to mention his harassing defensive play, are ideal against tired legs. i think of him as an evolutionary levesque. he’s one of the last of the 11 i would protect, but i think he’s valuable enough to spend a slot on, especially since i think the other players the sounders would leave unprotected sort of come in pairs (friberg/evans, leo/wahl, ford/meredith/boss) where, if they select one, the other that wasn’t selected would be able to pick up the slack.
I leave unprotected Zakuani, Fernandez,
Wahl, and Fucito.
Zak cause he might take a whole year to get back into shape and I don’t think an expansion team would take a flyer on the chance he never gets back into form.
Fernandez cause he makes a bit of cash, we have Neagle / Zak / Montano at that position, not sure how long he is gonna be here anyways, and I think we could get a better DP eventually.
Fucito cause he seems to be a backup, and Wahl because a replacement that is = to him shouldn’t be that hard to find.
Please tell me you're kidding...
“Zak cause he might take a whole year to get back into shape and I don’t think an expansion team would take a flyer on the chance he never gets back into form.”
That’s a joke, right? Right…?
See prior post on Zak's injury status
His recovery is far from guaranteed and considering the nerve damage, he will likely never be quite the same player he was. That doesn’t mean he won’t be as good or ever better…. but that it’s relatively unlikely that he comes back and plays the same way. But it won’t take a year to know. We’ll have a very, very good idea by the time March rolls around….. unfortunately, too late to use in this decision. For me, you protect him. He’s given a lot to the organization and I believe a player of his quality finds a way to come back and be effective, even if it means changing his game a bit.
Another layer to the Sounders attack
For me the reason to protect Zakuani is that he brings another dimension to the Sounders attack. Prior to his injury, he was one of the fastest players in the league and more importantly, he plays ‘fast’. The threat that he poses on the wing forces opposing teams to keep their defensive wings pinned back. Zak couples his speed with an strong set of skills, one on one. The fear of being burned and not having the speed to recover, is a powerful tool. And unfortunately, speed is something that cannot be taught. It can be coached. But not taught.
The pressure that Zak exerts on the left side also widens the pitch and creates space for the mid fielders and Montero to operate. As the Sounders reincorporate his skill set into the mix, the overall attack will get stronger.
Zakuani is also very young. As a 3rd year veteran, he is still one of the younger Sounders. He has plenty of opportunity to continue to mature and grow with the franchise. To date, he has been weaker on defense than on offense. But for an offensive minded player, this is a fairly normal situation. He has shown a tendency to improve the totality of his game and a willingness to work to get better. Don’t forget, this is a player who came to the US collegiate system to get playing time and develop his skills. Last year he followed Nkufo around and absorbed everything that he could. Both of these are good signs that his work ethic is strong.
His injury is the type of injury that responds well traditionally and his recovery is apparently well on track. He has a strong core and a willingness to do the hard rehab work. It remains to be seen if his speed returns to his previous level. But the prognosis is good.
Finally, there is the financial aspect of his potential. If he continues to develop along his current track, the Sounders should realize a significant transfer fee when he moves forward. If he is lost in the Expansion Draft, they gain nothing.
by Abbott Smith on Oct 25, 2011 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Party foul!
This is what the off season is for. Let’s get through the playoffs before we start maligning players that will be critical for our MLS Cup run!
by InternetCharlie on Oct 23, 2011 8:10 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
here's the thing...
The real list is due the day after MLS Cup, which we all hope to be celebrating. There’s no good time to do this. So, now wins.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 24, 2011 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Agree, no time like the present
I was semi shocked to see it up last night, but after thinking about it, might as well. The only better time might’ve been during the lull between the semis and the final, but still, this thread will be alive until then.
Maybe there’s a way to keep bumping it on to the front page with editorial updates to it that bump the previous editorial to a lower section?
As I posted it in the other thread...
Friberg and Evans, if they both remain, become #2 and #3 center mids with the latter making over 100k, whatever order you choose. Leave them both exposed, you will likely lose one, but it’s unlikely you will be able to keep both due to salary concerns regardless.
It is absolutely insane to expose either Fernandez or Zakuani barring contractual issues we are not aware of. Both are among the top 5 players presently on this team, assuming health and a measure of current talent. Even should you assume that either will move elsewhere, this is the source of those mystical allocation funds now that our expansion years are past.
Totally agree
I think any team given the chance would grab Zak in a heartbeat, and Alvaro has been a revelation this year a calm and collected goal scorer with good on the ball skill, he will feature next season even if we are deep at the wings.
by ClaypidgeonCoug on Oct 23, 2011 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Hear, hear.
I want back and forth between protecting Evans and Friberg. I picked Evans, but I keep going back and forth on it still.
If the rules didn't change
We need to protect 3 internationals. Friberg is one of the best 3 internationals without a green card on the team.
Can you explain this?
Why do we have to protect internationals? I was waffling a bit between Evans and Friberg and ultimately chose Evans for his leadership and occasional moments of brilliance. But then you mention the international issue and that reminds me that Montreal may be less likely to steal any exposed internationals because of their own limited international slots (at least some of which are likely to be reserved for DPs). To me that’s another reason to expose Friberg instead of Evans—much better chance of keeping both.
In the past one of the requirements for the expansion draft
is that each team must protect at least 3 internationals (and anyone with a green card does not count as such).
MLS has a limit on the amount of internationals you can expose
Which, in effect, means you have to protect at least three of them. I am assuming the rule is in place so that teams don’t just have internationals to choose from, effectively limiting them to domestic players when they are trying to build their roster.
This link has a chart showing how many internationals can be exposed
based on the number of internationals on the team. It also contains the other expansion draft info (chart is at the very bottom).
Roster
Sounders Roster with Internationals marked.
Our Internationals:
Fernandez
Friberg
Gonzalez
Montaño
Rosales
Sanyang
Tetteh (GA protected)
Fernandez and Rosales are easily on our list. If Tetteh counts as a protected international player, then we are not obligated to protect Friberg, Gonzalez, Montaño or Sanyang. If Tetteh does not count, we need to add one of those 4 (and Friberg is 13ish votes behind Fucito at my last refresh).
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by ColinMacLeod on Oct 24, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
seems...
add Friberg or Leo at the expense of Fucito or Riley.
I’d reluctantly bump Riley for Leo, I think… since having a defense-minded left-back could soften the blow of integrating someone new at rb. I think Montreal would take Friberg or Evans over Riley, though.
dammit, forgot again....
…and I really, really hate the ins and outs of international player rules in MLS.
speaking
of green cards who’s up next to be getting one?
same debate with self
I had the same internal debate and chose Friberg thinking Evan’s injury history would dissuade Montreal.
by NaCl on Oct 24, 2011 12:17 PM PDT via iPhone app up reply actions
My XI
Alonso, Rosales, Montero, Parke, Hurtado are obvious picks.
For the rest of the six slots, I went for
Riley – for the simple reason we dont have any better RB. Rather we dont have anyother RB.
I want to preserve our forwards. They are hard to find and how Montero gels with them is very critical for our success next season. Hence Sammy and Fucito. White was very impressive in the games he played for us and I secretly hope his injury and his poor record with Toronto would make it hard for Montreal to pick him.
Fernandez, though is costly at 300K (and a DP slot), is versatile (can play in LM, CM and RM if needed) and is a *goal scorer*. With a team that is keen on winning all games it plays, MLS, Open CUP, CCL , Reserve games…we need a deep roaster with versatile players.
Zakuani would have been an obvious choice if not for his injury. The only question is will how long will it take for him to come back to his best. I can wait. Knowing about his character, I am sure he will be back strong… very strong.
So that fills the 10 spots.
The last one is the trick one. Its basically boiled down between Evans and Neagle (I like Evans as a CM to pair with Alonso than Friberg). Very tough choice. Neagle is young and cheap and very promising. not to forget he is a local lad and I would love to see – one day – our team has many local lads and folks from reserves in the starting XI. But I went with Evans because he is a leader in the midfield (potential captain? buts thats another discussion) and is the best we have for his position (ACM). Yes he is better than Alvaro as an ACM.
I think one of Neagle, Ianni, Friberg, Whal, Gonzalez will be taken in the draft and I fear we will lose Neagle :(.
no LB
the reason why I didn’t portect a left back (whal/gonzalez) is because even if we lose one, we will have the other + Tetteh.
I'm with you on everything until the last...
Fernandez is better in the air, a better passer, a better dribbler, and a much better shooter than Evans, and doesn’t have the injury history. Evans is a better defensive pairing with Alonso, but when it comes to all-around game, Fernandez above Evans at ACM should fall squarely with the former.
still Evans
Yes, Fernandez would be a better attacking player but even Evans is key while defending our set pieces. Evans transitions really well from defense to offense and vice versa.
Anyways, the last slot was between Neagle and Evans. Fernandez is already in. He is still my first choice LM with Zac as a super sub (atleast for the first half of the next season).
set pieces?
Fernandez is better in the air than Evans. Even if Evans were marginally better in the air defensively – a point I would cautiously dispute – you’re talking about max ~20 plays a game in which the CM will be a key figure in only a small fraction. Simply as a proportion of game events, that is not nearly enough to give him a positional advantage. With most personnel selections either of them would be around third in priority on defending aerial threats at best.
Eventually, barring unforeseen issues, Zakuani will be back in place at left wing, and we’d be quite blessed to have a Zak/Ozzie/Flaco/Mauro midfield.
by nimajneb on Oct 23, 2011 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nobody has picked Nate Jaqua
Can’t tell you how much I love that.
by nicktjacob on Oct 23, 2011 9:33 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Will he want to be?
At the start of last season he was behind OBW in the pecking order. OBW’s injury meant he got a modicum of playing time, but with Ochoa showing his chops, if OBW manages to recover Jaqua would be third in the pecking order for that position – and given where he’s at in his career that probably means he’d want to look elsewhere for minutes.
Jaqua was coming off surgery this year also
Second year in a row for him, surgery in the off season. If there’s no surgery this off season, I don’t see a reason he can’t compete for more minutes next year and be a better player than he was this year.
his surgery was 11 months ago...
…and he’s been back playing for nearly 7. His issues with touch, finishing, and directing his headers are nothing new, even if they’re worse this year. Additionally, he’s a pretty expensive gamble for improving form enough to climb up the depth chart.
by nimajneb on Oct 24, 2011 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
His contract isn't in the expensive area anymore
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Sounder At Heart
even at 140k
…was tied for 4th on the team, and isn’t likely to be far off that placement next year, unless they manage to negotiate it down more.
He's not as good as our other options at Forward right now
I still think he has higher potential quality next year if he can avoid another surgery, and he’ll probably become cheaper still unless he finds form again.
in an absolutely ideal world, who do you bump?
Jaqua’s not likely to exceed his ’09 form, and one could argue that the ceiling of Fucito, Ochoa and White is higher simply on a physical/skill level (although the risk of players with a short professional track record is fairly high).
Noonan
But then Jaqua, Levesque can be considered a Forward but he’s more versatile. There’s no reason Jaqua can’t be on the roster next year, salary reduction is probably part of that, but still, if no surgery this offseason like the prior 2, chances are good he’ll be better next year than he was this year or last.
We'll see if that's an option...
if it fits in under the salary structure, then picking our forwards out of, say, Montero, Fucito, Ochoa, White, Jaqua, and Neagle is not a bad option. All I’m saying is that, in an ideal world with that roster, Jaqua is receiving a lot of money for few minutes.
This was not a discouraging exercise!
I thought for sure it would be, I mean, we have to lose someone good, but then I realized that no matter who leaves, our depth is so, well, deep, that we can compensate.
by fiftyone on Oct 23, 2011 9:35 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Montero contributes about as much as any DP one could pick...
…costs exactly the same towards the cap as any DP (and considerably less than some), fits well within Montreal’s budget and would be picked first if exposed accompanied by a fit of fiendish giggles.
by nimajneb on Oct 23, 2011 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
YES
His production while only making $600-700k? They’d take him in a heartbeat.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 8, 2011 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
Crazy talk
There’s no way we leave him unprotected and if we did he’d get picked and at the very least they could trade him for less salary cap heavy options.
by Thalas on Oct 23, 2011 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Mah picks
Defenders: Hurtado, Parke
Midfielders: Alonso, Fernandez, Friberg, Neagle, Rosales, Zakuani
Forwards: Fucito, Montero, Ochoa
That may look like an extremely attack heavy selection, although looking at the overall picks the only one where I differ from the majority is picking Friberg over Riley. Besides, there is method to my madness: firstly, the thing that stands out in our team within the league is attacking prowess, and it’s not a coincidence that two of the three expansion draftees we lost were attacking options, so it makes sense that any team looking to pick up players from our own squad are almost certainly going to be focusing there, so we should concentrate on protecting that part of the roster; and secondly, while I understand Dave’s argument that we should protect what would represent our strongest team, and full backs are definitely our thinnest position, I think it’s apparent from the last couple of seasons those positions are already more in need of an overhaul than any in our team, so while losing a full back from the roster will trim our options yet further, it will also underscore our need to address that issue in the off season.
A couple of more specific comments: I’d be surprised if anyone goes for one of our keepers, and if they do it won’t be Boss, in which case we’ll be left with either Ford or Meredith – no bad thing, really, given we need to find a replacement keeper anyhow. I would be tempted to protect OBW because I think his potential would be a real draw, but teams are less likely to take a risk on a player with the possibility of long term disability, especially not one who has also struggled to settle once at TFC, so despite his limited minutes and the resultant question mark still hanging over his long-term contribution, I chose Ochoa instead because he has shown he can produce and has done so at the business end of the season, when it’s fresh in the memory.
On a similar note, anyone wanting to expose Zakuani due to injury: you are lunatics, plain and simple. Hurtado’s injury was, on paper at least, a bigger issue to resolve than Zak’s, and he’s come back strong in a more physical position. where OBW would be a massive risk, Zak would be a shoe-in for selection for any team with even a half-competent FO, and a real loss to our midfield strength.
I see much of the rest of the team as replaceable. That’s not to say the loss of any (well, most) of them wouldn’t be felt, but they’d be much easier to replace. On performance we’d miss Carrasco the most, but the one that would have the most impact would be Levesque, because whatever his faults he’s clearly the metaphorical heart, maybe not of the squad, but definitely of the Sounders.
by Targaff on Oct 23, 2011 9:42 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Defense is key this year
with no Keller we need experienced back 4 to co-ordinate defence. Also I don’t think we can replace Riley at RB if we lose him. Yes Scott is an average RB and his backups would be Estrada and Evans…
I think we need Riley.
I agree it's key
But I feel we need to reassess and reset rather than build on a flawed foundation. Parke and Hurtado are solid starting blocks for that sort of approach, and keeping hold of an attack that we know is sound means the FO can focus the majority of its resources on finding the fix.
by Targaff on Oct 23, 2011 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hanauer
Did say that RB is the easiest position to fill… but I still think they’ll protect Riley.
Right back is the easiest position to fill?
Can you link that?
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Sounder At Heart
I had your list except with Carrasco instead of Fucito.
(A heresy, I know. I was a difficult decision to make)
Rosales, Alonso, Montero, Zakuani, Fernandez, Hurtado, Parke, Neagle, Ochoa, Fucito, Evans
Looks like Riley was the most popular player I’ve left out, I think a dangerous goal scoring young Forward is worth more than a quality Right Back, though I love Riley’s defensive play, players down the middle are more important, and Left and Right Back are probably the 2 least valuable positions of the 11. If Riley was stellar in the attack, which he’s not, to go with his stellar defensive skills, I’d protect him, but just barely. If anyone argues Wahl is stellar in the attack, I’d argue he’s anything but stellar in defense, and Gonzalez is in the same categories as Riley.
Friberg is neck and neck with Fucito and only 5% ahead of Evans, all are around 50%, coin flip really, obvious arguments for all.
I think of all the players I’ve left unprotected, I’d be most bummed to lose Carrasco as he looks like he might be a young Alonso in the making.
I don’t see us losing a Le Toux league MVP caliber player this year, more like a Sturgis/Nyassi fringe starter/backup, which makes me suspect Friberg if we don’t protect him.
by Thalas on Oct 23, 2011 9:43 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'd like to leave both Evans and Friberg free
They will essentially play the same situation and I imagine the second half of next year they will be also fighting Flaco as well once Zak has fully secured his spot. I think either would be tempting for Montreal and we could live without one of them.
I left Friberg off my list, but if I drop Evans too...
I’d protect Carrasco, I really like him as a young Alonso, again applying the up the middle of the pitch value system which many parrot including myself, I’d hate to lose Riley and I love how solid defensively he is, but he’s a full back and those are the least valuable.
Stupid outsider question:
Fernandez isn’t a DP next year and thus protected? Is he a transfer fee DP?
volatilelyle.com
Zakuani one of best players in the league
before he was injured. He was the most dangerous winger in the league easily. Crazy speed and skill one on one.
by Kevin Higginbottom on Oct 23, 2011 10:01 PM PDT reply actions
James Riley 68%, Brad Evans 45%?
S@H, I am dissapoint.
SB Nation's World Soccer Editor, manager of Cartilage Free Captain, contributor to Acme Packing Company.
by Kevin McCauley on Oct 23, 2011 10:12 PM PDT reply actions
Evans and Friberg play the same role
Montreal only gets one, so you don’t need to protect either. With Evans injury history and salary I leave him available.
Riley is the only right back on the team and if hadn’t of had two concussions this year he would have played as much as Alonso (read basically every game). Sigi clearly thinks highly of him, especially for his ability to attack though his recovery takes a bit. He’s still in peak years as well. Replacing him would cost more than he costs.
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Sounder At Heart
And as of this posting my XI are in the green
Although I think the team will protect at least one I’m not protecting. I also think at least one of Neagle, Ochoa and Fucito aren’t protected.
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Sounder At Heart
by Dave Clark on Oct 23, 2011 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
what mine would have been were it not for a silly mistake...
…wish I could edit.
I think it's hard to protect a lot of developing players
Who are already in deep positions. Neagle specifically gets the short end of the stick. If we don’t pick up a forward in the summer we will need both Ochoa and Fucito I think. We will have far too many games to rely solely upon Montero + 1 and then Levesque/Noonan/Jaqua.
With 2 capable left backs I could see both Gonzo and Wahl being left open
And with two (or perhaps 3) capable CMs I could say the same about Friberg/Evans.
For me it's Evans and OBW
Dunno why no one else wants to keep OBW, though…
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Oct 24, 2011 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions
It isn't about not wanting to keep him
It’s that the Impact aren’t likely to take someone who has had two blod clot surgeries within a single season.
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by Dave Clark on Oct 24, 2011 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't protect many of our back four
Just Hurtado, Riley and Parke. not because the other guys aren’t talented, but i think we could weather the loss of Scott, Wahl or Gonzalez without too much trouble. I actually like Leo a lot, and if theres a chance we can protect him, i think he’d be the guy to protect.
"we could weather the loss of Scott"
//snicker
My current hopes
Is that we leave Wahl/Gonzo/Evans/Friberg free and that one of them are picked. All 4 are starting caliber with an almost equally skilled competitor for the spot.
my list in no specific order
Ochoa, montero, fernandez, rosales, alonso, neagle, evans, zakuani, riley, parke, hurtado.
We’d probably lose Friberg/Fucito.
by python6114 on Oct 23, 2011 10:42 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
My list too
A bit surprising to me that no one else had this list. I think Fucito is the biggest risk to lose, but I’d hope Montreal is looking at his MLS numbers and not his overall numbers and decides to take a pass…
I'd switch Evans and Fucito in that list
Evans/Friberg both play the same position and we possibly will have a 3rd fighting for the spot once Zakuani is back. Since they can only take one leave them both open and protect another forward.
White’s health in the future is still unknown and we will be competing in 4 competitions next year (the rest of this years CCL, next years CCL, USOC, MLS). We will need more then just Ochoa/Montero. Fucito can fill in for either of them with a lot more quality then Levesque/Noonan/Jaqua(unless we get a return to 2009 Jaqua).
Dont forget
we need to protect at least 3 internationals. Per Sounders website Friberg, Montano, Gonzales, Tetteh, Fernandez, Rosales, Sanyang are all internationals. Im thinking Friberg, Rosales and Fernandez are the ones protected.
We need to be careful with those greencards!
I had completely forgotten about that. Guess that means my list is no longer possible. Agreed with you on the 3 choices, does this mean Sigi will leave Evans open out of necessity?
International Rule
From the rule
Clubs may make available a number of international players equal to their total number of international players minus three, provided that if a Club has three or fewer international players it may make available not more than one
Seattle only has 5 internationals after green cards are included. The real question is why would Tetteh count towards protection requirements?
To me that looks like only two need be protected.
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Sounder At Heart
If I am following correctly
Montano doesn’t count because of loan, Tetteh doesn’t count because he’s GA (or some other youth loop hole) meaning we have 3 or fewer internationals available and therefore only need to protect 2?
Montano is still a Sounder
For expansion purposes
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Sounder At Heart
Tetteh
Since Tetteh is protected by Generation Adidas status, how does he work into the need to protect so many international players? Technically he is an international player and protected. Tetteh, Rosales and Flaco would make three.
by Abbott Smith on Oct 24, 2011 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
So he counts as being a protected international because he is GA
Without actually needing to protect him? That’s an interesting loophole.
MLS has a nice table laying this out
over here.
If we have 6, need to protect 3.
If we have 5, only need to protect 2.
If we have 4, only need to protect 1.
You read the table backwards
If you have 6 you cannot make more then 3 available (must protect 3)
If you have 5 you cannot make more then 2 available (must protect 3)
If you have 4 you cannot make more then 1 available (must protect 3)
The wording is horrible for their chart. I wish they would just flat out say the number you must protect at each increment instead of saying the number you can leave open.
5 internationals or 7
Dave,
How are you coming up with 5 internationals?
Friberg, Fernandez, Rosales, Sanyang, Montano, Gonzalez according to the team website. does one of those guys have a green card that the league doesn’t know about?
The only question to me is does Tetteh count towards the total # of internationals since he’s GA or not? if he does then does his GA status mean we only have to protect an additional 2.
If I were the league I’d say Tetteh doesn’t count towards our total internationals or towards our 3 obligated protected international slots. Under that scenario it seems a given that Fernandez Friberg and Rosales get protected.
Oh why must you be so convoluted MLS?
As far as we know...
Gonzalez has a green card.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 24, 2011 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
and here's the proof
http://www.soundersfc.com/News/Articles/2011/03-March/Gonzalez-Green-Card.aspx
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 24, 2011 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
thanks Jeremiah.
Wonder why the website roster isn’t updated to correct that.
So we still have to protect 3 internationals. Any clarity on whether Tetteh counts as one of those three? If not then Friberg’s a lock to be protected, no?
in a sense he really should count...
…since he takes up an international slot on the season roster, unless I’m remembering very wrongly.
He is a GA
And since he hasn’t graduated as far as I know of, he gains automatic protection. Whether or not that counts towards the three protected internationals is where I feel it gets complicated.
the principle...
..unless I’m reading it wrongly, is that one should not be able to overload the exposed list in order to provide a disincentive for the expansion team to select a player. Therefore, since Tetteh occupies an international slot, he should count towards the 3 requiring protection even if he is protected automatically.
Of course the fact that it makes sense
has nothing to do with whether or not it’s an MLS rule. ;)
Where I'm getting caught up on
is that GA protection doesn’t count toward the 11 on the list which is why I’m not sure if he then counts towards the three protected.
Not to pour cold water on this topic...
…but could it all be moot? Montreal only has 10 picks across 18 teams, and we know there are deals being made between the clubs to avoid being picked. Montano’s tweets seemed like his move to the Impact was pretty much finalized. Could that be part of a deal that protects everyone else?
Unless there is more to it I doubt it
They could have easily taken a rotational starter from us, why settle for a youngster with minimal first team experience?
Because he's young and they're building a franchise...?
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Oct 24, 2011 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions
That has been a poor strategy for every expansion team
Taking bad players because they are young means you still have a bad player.
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Sounder At Heart
Bad player vs. Stuck in the Doghouse
Sometimes a player doesn’t fit a particular team’s style, is trapped on the depth chart, is playing out of position or simply has managed to get himself locked in the doghouse. A change of scenery can make a world of difference for these players. Doesn’t mean that they are bad players, just that they don’t fit where they are.
My take on Montano is that he needs to work on the mental side of the game and to grow up a bit. But I also get the feeling that he’s at an impasse with the Seattle coaching staff. He’s made an impression on them and they have made an impression on him. At this point, neither seems to be willing to move. My personal take is that Montano needs to adjust his thinking, but that doesn’t mean that he will. None of this means that he is a bad player. Simply a player that needs some maturity on a team with many other options.
Montreal may look at him and see a place for him in their scheme. Seattle used Sebu in a very specific way. Philly uses him differently and this has enabled him to elevate his game to a different level.
Do I think that Montano is who the Impact will choose from the Sounders? No. The Sounders are willing to trade him and need allocation money and perhaps an international slot. Trading Montano for allocation dollars and perhaps an additional international roster spot makes more sense for the Impact than giving up the option of raiding Seattle’s roster through the Expansion Draft.
by Abbott Smith on Oct 24, 2011 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
There were Reserve games that he didn't appear
A league that exists specifically to get players experience and maturaity. Getting more time in Montreal was good for him, but I doubt they use an expansion pick on him when players capable of starting at the MLS level will be available.
If they are willing to trade for him that would be great for everyone.
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Regarding a trade
Do we get some kind of allocation benefit for making the quarters in CCL or winning USOC? Is it feasible that maybe we already have some allocation dollars to play with where we could sweeten the deal to trade away Montano and avoid an expansion draft loss?
by chrisperry1983 on Oct 24, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
There is an allocation benefit to making CCL quarters
I think it would be a bad idea to use that to sweeten a deal away, but instead to find new players or lower a Rosales cap hit.
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Stubborn
I agree that Montano needed both playing time and a change of scenery. My take is that the maturity issue here has more to do with how Montano applies himself and not with his physical skills. He’s been gathering splinters because the coaching staff doesn’t appear to like his work ethic. Sigi has repetitively shown that he rewards hard work. Fucito, Estrada, Neagle, Levesque, Scott are all examples of this principle in action. Montano has made the team two years in a row due to his physical skills. But he doesn’t appear to apply himself consistently and his playing time has dwindled because of it. At this point, he may also be stuck in a mental rut and feeling persecuted. Only Sigi and Montano know with certainty. But watching from Sigi operate from the outside, I place my bets that this is an issue of two men in a stare down and Montano hasn’t figured out that he can’t win.
by Abbott Smith on Oct 24, 2011 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
He also makes dumb mistakes
In the reserve games I’ve seen he has a pretty high motor. However, it seems prone to mental errors (e.g. Bad passes, stupid fouls, moving out of position, etc.) He really needs more meaningful game time which he’s not getting here.
The SAH Links Guy
A young bad player is a gift that keeps on giving
Every year the fans can look forward to a bad player filling space on the roster!
The SAH Links Guy
Because
It isn’t like they give up their 10 picks to do it. They can get a rotational starter from anyone and get to keep Montano for FREE.
So, it’s 11 players for the price of 10, we just get to pick one of them.
I'm all in the green on my picks...
… but it’s tough to guess without knowing more about what Montreal needs and what other teams are doing.
Since Montreal is building a team they will be drafting to fill out a roster. i.e. if there is a better unprotected left back out there than Riley, they probably won’t take Riley.
Since I have no idea who, at what position, will be available and better than their comparable second string Sounder, I simply don’t know what they are going to be looking for when they come sniffing around Seattle.
I also don’t know what they already have or who they are looking at on the open market.
That said, with our depth, you have to think Montreal is likely to take one of our players. I would guess a midfielder or Fucito.
I see a scenario where they take Evans. He’s a decent all-rounder. He hits PKs. He knows the league, he’s been on winning teams, and he’s instant captain material. The question would be concerns about his health.
My XI
Is this like taking a picture of your ballot?
Honeybadger, B-Rad, Flaco, Fucito, El Presidente, Fredy, Neagle, Sparkles, Riley, Rosales, and Zakuani.
Most nervous about
Carrasco, Montano, Ochoa, Sanyang and Wahl.
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
It looks like B-Rad is the only one people are more cavalier with on my list.
Ochoa and Fucito are practically the same age/position. I am surprised readers are interested in weakening our mids for a benched forward. Or perhaps it is a call for 3 forward attack.
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
in fixture congestion...
…need for 4 quality forwards. We presently have 3.
We have a need for 2 quality attacking center mids. We presently have 3.
The third string forward is looking at a whole lot more key minutes than the third string CAM.
It's not just a question of the Sounders' roster, but of the philosophy of the Expansion Draft
The Impact get to choose a total of 10 players from the entire league. The question is about who can a team leave on the bubble and not lose. The Sounders and the fan base don’t want to lose any significant players. But the Sounders also don’t want to lose their future if they can avoid it. Players like Neagle, Carrasco, Ochoa and Fucito aren’t just bench depth. They are hedges against the day when the Sounders start to place players into the higher echelons of the global football market. Players like Alonso, Montero, Fernandez and Zakuani are all likely to move on at some point in the not too distant future. The young studs are also hedges against the salary cap. High quality at low cost is extremely valuable in a league with this tight of a salary cap. I enjoy watching both Evans and Friberg play. But the fact remains that the Sounders can only lose one of them and the other can fill in the loss. With Zak returning, Fernandez or Mauro may be moving to a more central place on the pitch. Keeping the less expensive quality players gives the Sounders flexibility in their off season moves.
by Abbott Smith on Oct 24, 2011 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I might have answered differently in my protected 11
I see the philosophy of the draft protection now is about protecting the vulnerable, irreplaceable and high quality at low cost.
I think I was more focused on my starting 11 and add another field player and leave Meredith and Ford open.
Clearly there is a deeper philosophy at work. Thanks to both Abbott Smith and nimajneb for the lesson.
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
Gamesmanship on Rosales?
Could we be holding off on signing Rosales so we don’t have to protect him in the draft. IE, we sign him 11/24 to a designated player contract and we get to protect 11 other guys, since technically he isn’t on the team for the expansion draft.
e.g. Bornstein last year...
I imagine Montreal could still select.
A player already on the roster is considered on the roster
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Sounder At Heart
So far all mine in are the green...
My list. But I’m not sure I’m compliant with the international spots. If we only had Frieberg or Evans, but not both, I would bump Fucito down.
I’m a bit surprised at how many folks discount Riley, granted he’s in the green here. On the ECS forum he seems to get beaten up a bit. meh…
1. Fredy Montero
2. Osvaldo Alonso
3. Mauro Rosales
4. Steve Zakuani
5. Alvaro Fernandez
6. Jhon Kennedy Hurtado
7. Jeff Parke
8. Lamar Neagle
9. Sammy Ochoa
10. James Riley
11. Mike Fucito
by SoundersForever on Oct 24, 2011 9:44 AM PDT reply actions
Just a thought on Zakuani
The front office could play a little mind game with montreal and leave him unprotected. Make them wonder if his recovery is not going as planned. It would be a big risk to take but it is one strategy the front office might think of. It would also make me wonder if his recovery is going as planned though.
And the payoff for that huge risk would be...
…getting to protect Wahl?
We should play cards sometime soon.
by mrbs on Oct 24, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
I didn't say it was a good strategy
just a strategy.
by seattlecubsfan on Oct 24, 2011 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
860+ votes...
17 votes total for Noonan and Jaqua.
The two men made a combined $188,004 this year (Jaqua: $140,004, Noonan: $48,000).
That’s a lot of money…
While I usually have a lot of respect for S@H readers...
…AND my XI are currently green…
I’m pretty confused how more people have picked JKH over Parke. Parke’s in my first pass “must protect”, JKH slips in with Riley on the “Well it would be a pain to find a replacement” round of picks.
JKH just slips in for me as well...
In fact, left him off my original 11. Had a change of heart afterward, however, because I’d be more bummed losing him than Evans.
Agree, Parke > Hurtado > Ianni
Not sure why others don’t see it, Parke reads the game well and might end up with the Captain armband on a permanent basis, though arguments can be made for Alonso, Rosales, Montero, and even Riley and Evans taking up that role as well.
Hurtado is younger and faster...
…and can shut anyone down in this league when he’s in form. Parke had his share of costly miscues early in the season and will have them again, so picking on JKH for a bad bounce that’s simply more recent doesn’t make much sense from a player evaluation standpoint.
That said, both of them should be locks for the protected list.
A "bad bounce" isn't my concern.
He’s regained some form since early in the year but he still seems to get beat and lose defenders too often and commits senseless fouls that would sink us if they’re called. In 23 starts this year he has 2 red cards (and I think another during the Cascadia summit, although that might have just been a PK), and he’s gotten away with huge, needless jersey pulls in the box more than once.
And I don’t think it’s been much of an issue lately, but for the first half of the season all of his “clearances” seemed to just go to space at the top of our box. For the first half of this season I would have definitely taken Ianni + Parke of ‘10 over what we had, unfortunately Ianni doesn’t seem to be up to that.
an accidental stumble with toronto...
for a questionable second yellow, and a blatant dive by Saborio for a straight red don’t help your case. Hurtado and Parke have comparable pass completion rates. The reason Wahl has been successful in adding to the offense has been Hurtado’s ability to regularly cover for his defensive shortcomings.
He's gotten away with far more
Honestly, pretty much any questionable call a ref makes on JKH would be understandable as he cheats in the box, a lot, and refs will eventually stop giving him the benefit of a doubt.
not any more than parke and every other MLS centerback...
“Questionable” is putting it mildly… making a player eval. based on Saborio faking out the referee makes no sense whatsoever.
Granted, Saborio did fake out the ref
But my point is that Hurtado does it FAR more than Parke, and far more than most other CBs. You may disagree. But to me his style of defending is a liability in the box and I don’t like having to hope that the ref is going to be lenient every time there’s a quick forward.
Where he happened to get the 2 reds may not have earned them (well, definitely didn’t earn the Saborio one). But if you take this season’s play on aggregate, 2 reds seems about right.
generally...
Parke and Hurtado have nearly identical tendencies of conceding penalties in a Sounder uniform, as far as I’m aware.
…and we return to the points: Hurtado is younger and faster. Both players clearly belong in the protected 11.
Not to jump in here...
But you guys are basically arguing 1a v. 1b.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 24, 2011 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Can't say I'm arguing that...
…since I’ve pretty much pointed out the performance differences between them are marginal from the get-go.
I think TRex had a lot to do with Hurtado's success in '09
I think Hurtado needs the more veteran leader partner for the pairing to be complete, think Pique/Puyol.
Parke is a veteran...
…but perhaps he isn’t slow or clumsy enough?
It seems much more likely that coming off a major knee injury and then suffering a moderate one is not exactly an easy thing to do. Hurtado was shortlisted for defender of the year for a number of good reasons that still hold true. His youth and his progression this year working off the rust both suggest he can come back from those issues, and we’d be foolish to think of him as being any less vital to the defense in the future than his partner at CB.
that sounded more sour than I intended
Marshall was solid enough in ’09 if quite definitely poor in 2010. Bringing him up presents another opportunity to reiterate: Hurtado has been extremely effective running back into the box to cover for, often, slow centerback partners as well as fullbacks that push forward and are regularly caught out of position. Extra playing time for Wahl has increased the importance of that role, and the continued success of the defense under the circumstances is a credit to both Parke and Hurtado.
my picks
ozzie, montero, rosales, zakuani, alvaro, jkh, parke, ochoa, riley, neagle, fucito.
i left off friberg/evans and wahl/leo because i feel like if montreal picks one of them, the sounders would be fine with the other—particularly the friberg/evans pair, given that i’m guessing alvaro moves to the middle so zakuani and mauro can occupy the wings.
all in all, i think there are fewer hard omissions this time around than last time.
I'd pick the current greens...
…but I don’t think Sigi will. I would not at all be surprised if Evans and Carrasco ended up on the XI at the cost of Fucito first and then Neagle.
For me, Evans is a overrated by Sigi, even with all of his intangibles (and coming off the SJ game where he did pretty well), but the falloff (or step up?) to Friberg is pretty minimal, plus we’ll have some crossover depth with our glut of top quality wings.
Carrasco for me is still too green (and violent) to really be a viable backup… when he’s in for Ozzie it just seems like you’re going to get critical give aways and something that could be a red-card every game.
I wish Friberg were faster
He’s quick, but not fast. There was some breakaway in a recent game, and I remember watching Friberg try to close down a trailing player….it was painful. I felt like I was watching the second heat in a JV track meet I like his short, crisp passes, but he doesn’t put the ball in many dangerous positions. Put a gun to my head tonight, and I would pick Evans…it’s close.
by InternetCharlie on Oct 24, 2011 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Carrasco - still a project
Agree that Carrasco isn’t the replacement for Alonso. he’s an option, but I’d hope we bring in someone else to challenge for the spot. He’s shows promise, but is nowhere near Alonso quality (not that many are). Montreal might take him, but he’s definitely replaceable and we’d keep all the players on the bubble.
Honestly, I was pretty suprised that we didn’t miss Sturgis and Nyassi more this year. I think it shows that that the league (or at least the Sounders) kept improving faster than the normal progression of skill. Mauro, Friberg, OBW, Neagle. All new players that put the overall play way above last years level. And this year, it’ll be nice to see what we do.
by InternetCharlie on Oct 24, 2011 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Why can't I pick Kasey Keller?
Don’t we wish. Can we force him to keep playing?
The Church must be losing some followers...
Fucito just got knocked out of the top 11.
I highly doubt
Fucito will be protected and if he can’t cut the top 11 on this site, then he doesn’t seem likely to be protected by our front office. This year I think we protect two forwards and it seems like Montero and Ochoa are going to be it.
Jacqua was protected last year too
Things change, no? Kinda depends on how long we think Freddy will be here. Assuming he’ll be here next year, I’d leave Fucito exposed. He’s had a ton of minutes, and has shown promise but not consistent level. Last year, he killed it during the minutes he played and there were two teams….so the odds of getting picked were pretty high. This year, different situation – though I could see him getting picked based on potential ….and of course he’d then become the next leToux. Ah, I’d be happy for him.
Do you think Neagle or Fucito has more potential. They seem like simliar situations.
by InternetCharlie on Oct 24, 2011 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Except that Jaqua is on the down side of his career
while Fucito is in his prime. So I dont’ think those are similar situations.
To me the similar circumstances are Neagle, Ochoa and Fucito. Basically the same age, all show promise of still improving. Two are forwards (very different types) and Seattle only has one clearly protected forward. While Neagle is a wide mid on a team that will already be protecting three of those.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
by Dave Clark on Oct 24, 2011 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's a little different scenario
I’m not saying it’s impossible that Fucito will be protected, but last year he was scoring a lot of goals in late September and October, this year he has kind of cooled off on the goal scoring.
He still poses big problems for opposing defenses and I think we can agree he’ll start this saturday at Rio Tinto because he was the man of the match for me that day in May.
I'd actually start Ochoa
RSL has he advantage on PKs now that Morales is back. I like Ochoa for added height on offensive and defensive set-pieces.
The SAH Links Guy
That's true
forgot about that, but Fucito completely owned Olave and I think that Olave is better suited to handle Ochoa then Fucito. So I guess it’s just a little give and take either way.
Completely owned Olave at Rio Tinto
owned Borchers at CLink
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Sounder At Heart
I personally think that Ochoa, if fit, should generally be starting our games
because we don’t have a lot of guys up front capable of really getting on the end of a cross in the run of play and if Ochoa is in there, it adds that dimension to our attack and forces defenses to adjust to that. If this were just about any other team, I’d say we should start Ochoa.
But I do have to agree with this argument. I think you go with the guy that owned the RSL backline in both games he played against them this season. Both Borchers and Olave are IMO better suited to defending a guy like Ochoa who uses his strength to win headers vs a guy like Fucito who is just as strong probably (at least close) and has speed that Olave and Borchers can’t match and need to really be wary of.
Fucito scored more goals this year than last.
As well as more late than last.
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Sounder At Heart
But he's also had more PT, right?
And so a lower PP90 this season than last. He’s had significantly more opportunity in MLS play this season and hasn’t scored that much more. There’s no question the team will be taking risks with who to protect and I think Montreal might look at Fucito and think that sure, he can score vs not-particularly athletic (but typically technical) CCL teams, but has trouble scoring vs more athletic, stronger MLS backlines. They might not think that, also (I doubt any of us saw Philly taking Le Toux or how that would turn out), but I think that’s a risk worth taking this time around.
I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing
Certainly a fun excercise, however I picked 7 of the top 8 and then shrugged. We have a deep team, where at every position, perhaps save RB and GK, there is a quality player banging on the door for starter minutes. We’ve lost 3 players in two previous drafts and the team hasn’t really missed a beat.
Sure we might lose another, but the Sounders have a good track record of finding talent, often above replacement level of the departing player. There will be a draft and a January transfer window. A DP slot sits open. The cap goes up a tick next year, plus added allocation funds for CCL. After all that, the Sounders, at least on paper, might be a deeper, more talented team in 2012. And that should scare the hell out of MLS.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Protect: Wahl - Gonzalez - Neither ?
Initially, I chose to protect Tyson Wahl because I thought Leo was getting (much) older and because Wahl adds more to the attack including corner kicks and set pieces. Looking at the roster, Leo is 30 and Tyson is 27. I believed that going back to Leo a la 2010, but with a Leo two years older would not be as good as Wahl continuing his offensive support and learning to trackback and play stronger defense too. Then again, Leo might be a decent choice for Montreal as a veteran left back until they can plug in some youth there.
What are you reasons for protecting one over the other, or neither?
Fan of: Cardinals, Blues, Sounders, Yellow Jackets, Wolverines, Rams, and Blazers.
If you need to ask that question...
…the answer is neither. They can’t take both. So much like Friberg and Evans, if there’s extra depth and no clear winner you don’t need to protect either.
by mrbs on Oct 24, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think the Friberg over Evans
is pretty funny and shows how deeply biased sports fans can be. Lets look at eachothers updated stats from mlssoccer.com.
Friberg: 1897 minutes played, 1 goal, 2 assists, 9 shots, 3 sog, .05 goals per 90 minutes, 11.1 scoring percentage.
Evans: 1509 minutes played, 5 goals, 5 assists, 32 shots, 9 on goal, 3 pks attempted 3 converted, .3 goals per 90 minutes and a scoring percentage of 15.6.
This shows how deep a bias can run, now I can’t find passing accuracy, but I do remember reading on this site that Evans had better accuracy in passing too. So this leads to one thing extreme bias in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
Oh Evans why are you so unfairly hated.
I'll add their salary too
Evans guranteed compensation this year is: $140,000
Fribergs guranteed compensation is $110,000
So Evans pp90 is 600% better then Friberg’s at only roughly a 27.5 % increase in salary. Me thinks Evans will be protected instead of Friberg.
this comment shows how much...
…extremely inadequate statistics can be used to cast aspersion on other posters.
I only posted all the stats I could get on mlssoccer.com
you are more then welcome to post the stats that show how much more dominant in possession etc. Friberg is. I can’t figure out the opta site, so I only could go with mlssoccer.com.
But truth be told people only pick Friberg because he is not Evans.
people pick Friberg...
because of a subjective evaluation of passing, because he’s less expensive, better at advancing the ball on the dribble, and he’s not perennially injured. Evans being a regular pk taker stands in his credit, but the statistical difference in the run of play between the two is marginal (and, in the case of assists, has a certain amount to due with role as well as quality). There are several reasons to prefer one over the other in both directions, and both opinions are entirely rational.
…and, as I’ve said before, outside of international slot demands neither should be protected.
They play the same role on the team
box-to-box mid sometimes on the wide right. One is a better passer, shooter, and defender with more speed and better tactical awareness.
The other can dribble.
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Sounder At Heart
by Dave Clark on Oct 24, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
if we're indulging hyperbole...
one is standing on the sideline in a full body cast. The other isn’t.
one spends three quarters of the game advancing the ball towards his own goal. The other does not.
putting it more mildly...
Evans completes 4 out of 100 passes that Friberg gives away. Let’s postulate that Friberg attempts 8 more balls forward out of every 100 (it’s quite possibly higher than this). Evans gives the ball away 4 times less, and Friberg advances the ball at least four times more. Who is the better passer?
Does Mauro Rosales having a lesser pass completion rate than either of the subject in question make him a worse passer? Does the assist statistic adequately reflect ball advancement through the middle third and eve the final third when most goals are scored either by an entry pass from the wing to a forward or by a wing making a diagonal run?
If I had to pick...
…I think I would pick Friberg just because Evens is injured a whole lot more. Montreal might actually look right over Evens if he was left protected just because of the injury history.
by SoundersForever on Oct 24, 2011 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
So
Friberg passes the ball forward more times then Evans and still has less then half of the assists as Evans? His passing completion percentage is lower then Evans by 4 percent and Evans leads in all the major categories.
You do realize that 5 goals and 5 assists is pretty damn good right? I’m curious as to who could replace that? I’d say Fernandez, if you have Zakuani on the left and then Rosales on the right and Alonso and Fernandez in the middle, but you still need high quality midfielders for back up roles. I think those two spots are going to go to Neagle and Evans.
I’d say stick with the injury argument and not the performance based argument.
you do realize that the difference in goals...
…is almost entirely attributable to pks, right?
….and, as I stated earlier, the CAM in the present system is not put in a regular position to rack up assist numbers. Evans’ advantage in that regard has more to do with the late runs through the box (an attribute that I would readily say stands in his favor) than technical passing ability.
You do realize that 5 goals and 5 assists is pretty damn good right? I’m curious as to who could replace that?
I’ve pointed out, repeatedly, that Fernandez should be the CM paired with Alonso when Zakuani is ready to start…. indeed that forms the primary basis of my saying that neither Evans nor Friberg, as comparable players, should make the protected list.
by nimajneb on Oct 25, 2011 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hope that you are right that Alvaro gets more CM time
and I expect that the only reason that Friberg would get protected and not Evans is due to a league interpretation of the internationals rule.
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Sounder At Heart
Evans is also much much better in the air than Friberg
and a lot of times, midfield play comes down to playing head-tennis a bit before one team wins the ball out of the air and gets it to the ground. Without Evans, the Sounders aerial game in midfield is lacking. With the fact that we have other skilled passers to distribute in midfield (Rosales when he’s drifting in or playing WF, Montero, Fernandez depending on where he plays) and the fact that Evan’s passing, while not as good as Friberg’s, isn’t bad at all, I think we need Evans more. I hope we don’t lose Friberg, but I think we can’t afford to protect him unless we have to under the rules.
and Friberg is more active at challenges on the ground...
I’ve stated often enough that Evans is a better option when the aerial battle in midfield is going to play a significant role.
….and this is where I remind people, again, that I’m not arguing that Friberg is better than Evans all-around, but rather that they have very different skill sets suited to different situational play. The differences between them are so marginal as to make the decision between 2nd and 3rd CAM NOT something that should be decided by the protected list. Neither should be protected.
Friberg is hot and cold on challenges on the ground
Actually they are both really good at disappearing on the field or just getting our of position. I would love seeing Alvaro get more CM time next season. But the overall point of not protecting either is sound (in my opinion).
Unless Friberg has to use an International slot on the list.
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
You have seen the rest of the team
take PK’s right? Just saying before you write off Evan’s 100 percent PK conversion rate off.
Also we don’t have a CAM, we have two center midfielders, but I wouldn’t label either of the them as designated “attacking” midfielders.
This debate is old, if people can’t tell that Evans has had a better year then Friberg, they aren’t ever going to admit it. The only thing Friberg is even close in is the castrol index and who knows what the hell that thing measures.
Well, to be fair...
…Evans is “the guy” to take PKs. He knows that. He can spend a bit of extra time on it, not worry about who’s being chosen, not face the PK as a one time chance to screw up, but rather just know there’s a PK to be taken, stride to the spot, and know he can hit 4 out of 5. Nobody else on the team has that opportunity, and Evans’ inability to stay on the field is forcing that bad situation on the rest of the team.
But either way, Evans shouldn’t be credited with “5 goals”. It’s 2 goals, and going 3/3 in PKs. Which is impressive, but different.
Professionals
should make PKs I know they practice them all the time, and it’s not like the injury report is secret to the team. Trying to blame other players pk misses on Evan’s injuries seems silly. Evans is out for 3 weeks so you’re telling me no one else can make a PK consistently? That just doesn’t make sense.
I'm not blaming him for it.
I’m just proposing that being the act of being designated as the team’s PK taker could, in itself, improve that player’s PK percentage. And we’re currently designating someone who doesn’t have all that many available minutes over the past 2 seasons.
"writing off pks"
tell me where I’ve done that, exactly?
Citing penalty kicks in a goals comparison when the fundamental difference between the players in that statistic is a measure of opportunity rather than skill is misleading, plain and simple.
This debate is old, if people can’t tell that Evans has had a better year then Friberg, they aren’t ever going to admit it.
I fail to see where I have even argued that. Both players have had runs of poor form, and they’ve both shifted around to positions of need rather than given any real optimal use. Evans has had a marginally better season, and is in better form, but gametime decisions between the two should still be determined by skill set, and I think it’s a more than open question which player would have the better season next year…
,..leaving aside for the moment the question of which player is more likely to HAVE a season next year.
Your distinction on center mids is fair and completely semantic. My use of “CAM” is simply used to distinguish it from the Alonso role, which is clearly more defensively-minded.
You pulled a Seattlite
taking personal offense to a general statement, your starbucks cup is in the mail.
But Seattle doesn't use a CAM.
CDM, CM and CAM are distinct roles. The closest thing the Sounders have to a CAM is Montero.
by Aaron Campeau on Oct 26, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
....which again,
is a semantic, pointless distinction not relevant to the argument at hand.
It's really not.
Because you’re using incorrect terminology which muddles your argument.
by Aaron Campeau on Oct 26, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't see how pointing it out
as being shorthand for non-alonso is particularly confusing. I’m not using the definition of either CM or CAM to make a point concerning the players’ respective strengths. Considering the positional flexibility between DM, CM and the wings NEITHER term is 100% accurate.
It's not confusing necessarily, it's just wrong.
A central midfielder and central attacking midfielder are two distinct roles. They do different things. Calling the non-Alonso central midfielder an attacking midfielder isn’t accurate.
Is it a semantic distinction? Yes. But that doesn’t mean it’s not important.
by Aaron Campeau on Oct 26, 2011 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
No
he has three PK goals, I think maybe the confusion was I put 5 goals and also including the 3 out of 3 pk goals, but they add to the total of 5. Where normally I’d look down upon having a lot of PK goals, the way this team shoots them 100 percent accuracy is a bonus.
To me that reads as double-counting.
He scored 2 goals and 3 PKs, or 5 goals, 3 of which were PKs. Just a slight nitpick, but it’s pretty prevalent in all soccer stats reporting.
If you were stretching, you could even hang the bad PK performance from the rest of the team on Evans’ head. He’s the guy with that responsibility, and he’s so often not on the field it falls to a rotating cast of fill-ins who can’t get into a rhythm and have the added pressure of this being a one-off, instead of being able to adopt the mindset of “I can make 8 or 9 out of 10”.
I wouldn’t actually go that far… mostly just commented because counting PKs in goal stats is a pet peeve.
consider this
in 2009 we missed a PK against Columbus Crew at home, had we made it we would have won the supporter’s shield.
This year we missed a PK in LA and one at home against RSL, had we made those, we would have been knocking on LA’s door. I used to always clown on Landon Donovan because half his goals were PK goals, but after these 3 seasons I don’t feel they are gimmies anymore.
Not saying they're not important...
…just that they’re a very different stat than goals made, in my book.
I’m also floating the idea that giving the job permanently to someone who will always be on the field (Ozzie?) may be better, even if someone else may be technically better, but not always available.
I don't think Evans
was ever the number one choice, I think the duty fell to him on the match against Toronto because of injuries and he made his first one, so they kept it going that way.
He lucked into the role because of injury and lack of the rest of the team to score and he has made 3 out of 3.
Funny thing is, I couldn’t care less about the PK statistics. I am just basing it off of who has had a better season and even if Evans didn’t take any PK’s he’d still be a better player and much more worthy of being protected.
I have a question.
Does anyone know if Montreal will announce DP’s before the draft or does that happen after? I can’t remember what happened last year.
It's pretty unpredictable
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Oct 24, 2011 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm stunned to see Carrasco missing from so many lists
We do have a whole offseason for signings and trades. The way I see it, the goal isn’t to protect a starting 11 but to protect players that we think we can’t replace for cost in the offseason. To my mind, this is players that are just irreplaceable (Montero, Alonso, Fernandez, Zakuani) and players that you couldn’t possibly get for what we pay them (Neagle, Carrasco, arguably Fucito, Ochoa, Estrada).
I’d rather not lose anyone (I love our team for being our team) but we have to be realistic.
Carrasco is a pretty good risk IMO
Who knows exactly what the Impact will decide, but IIRC most teams have gotten the majority of their young up-and-coming players through the superdraft and generally used the expansion draft to pick up possibly undervalued vets because there aren’t as many other ways to get guys who have been around the MLS block a time or two (trading, of course, but you can only do that so many times before you run out of allocation).
All in Green
I’m all in Green
3 internationals: Flaco, Rosales, Friberg
3 studs: Montero, Alonso, Zakuani
3 defenders: Hurtado, Parke, Riley
2 from four: Ochoa, Neagle
2 to drop out: Evans, Fucito
The protecting 3 international may be stupid MLS rules, Friberg is the winner here, Evans loses out in the head to head, especially if Flaco can play CM consistently. Zakuani is already back to training and there’s no reason to believe he won’t be back to the old steve next season. If the team sees something different in training I trust them not to be sentimental. We still have an above average defense, even if that’s largely due to Kasey. Riley while not fantastic is a work horse for us. We already need to add one RB in the offseason, no need to make it 2.
For the 2 from 4 I think Ochoa slightly edges out Fucito in the forward category, and Neagle can also play there as the speed guy if called upon. Performance in the playoffs will be instructive, especially if Ochoa continues to score goals. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sigi protects Evans instead of Neagle. For me it largely depends on whether they are projecting Zakuani and Rosales to start at wingers and whether Flaco can play CM beside Alonso. If so Neagle becomes useful than Evans with Friberg already on the team due to the international rule. If Flaco is projected as a wide midfielder than I’d protect Evans and expose Neagle.
1250 votes for Alonso
That’s a lot of readers. How many of you voted twice?
I voted twice, but the second one was for my wife.
Fan of: Cardinals, Blues, Sounders, Yellow Jackets, Wolverines, Rams, and Blazers.
6 votes for Graham
Somebodys got some ’spainin to do.
by PhootieD on Oct 25, 2011 3:23 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I've noticed that even though I was logged in on the same account on different computers
I was able to vote separately each time.
Well I made my picks
1. Osvaldo Alonso 6. Jhon Kennedy Hurtado
2. Mauro Rosales 7. Jeff Parke
3. Fredy Montero 8. Sammy Ochoa
4. Steve Zakuani 9. Lamar Neagle
5. Alvaro Fernandez 10. James Riley
11. Erik Friberg
and they matched up perfectly with the top 11. I think Ochoa edges out Fucito easily. Sorry to the clergy on SaH, but Ochoa has already produced more than Mike in a much shorter amount of time. If we lose someone I think it’ll be Evans.
Recessionproof since 2009.
Had Fucito and Gonzales instead of Parke and Riley
Gonzales was my last pick.
Deal already in place?
Do you think they may already have a deal in place for Montano? Or am I reading too much into the loan. I am not too familiar with how often loans really mean they are interested versus just needing someone to help out for a while.
How did Montano do while out on loan?
Personally
Montano is exactly the kind of young player I’d be looking at if I was Montreal. My feeling is that the Sounders realized that he is at least two-three years away from being fully realized as a player, so they tried to get ahead of the arc on this one. I think he IS in the mix….. but we probably won’t know until just before or during the draft. Nice bit of strategizing if it works out.
I am not so sure
he is not at a point where he could be fully realized now. I just got the feeling he never quite meshed at the Sounders. I think he could do good eventually with the sounders but he is probalby more valueable somewhere else.
the only thing is sigi's comments make it seem like he could move there no matter what
“(Will Miguel Montano be part of the preseason next year?) “That’s something that’s a little gray right now. Obviously, he was at Montreal and we want him to be able to return to a situation that makes the most sense for him. So whether it’s here or whether it’s at Montreal or whether it’s back in South America, that’s something we’re discussing right now, as well.”"
if i was montreal and there were players better then Montano available Id look to take them.. the only way i see them taking Montano is as a part of a package deal
Not that hard, really
Given the talent gap between ourselves and LA, I found it hard to come up with 11 that I wanted to protect. The 11 I kept are:
Zakuani, Rosales, Evans, Montero, Ochoa, Hurtado, Parke, Fucito, Flaco, Alonso, & Neagle
Of those 11, the only ones I really care deeply about are: Zak*, Rosales, Montero, Parke, Alonso, and Flaco. I think that could be the core of a winning team.
Would love to see the team crack open the check book and bring in some more talent at midfield and back so that Evans, Fucito, Ochoa, Hurtado, and Neagle can be held in reserve as the roll players they clearly are.
*At best, Zak is going to spend all of next year rounding back into form. I hope like heck that his career can resume the trajectory that it was on before the injury.
I agree completely with your premise
And while I’d differ around the edges I think you have the core right. What this year’s team lacked was some bad a$$ toughness in midfield and a threat coming out of the back. The MLS is a young and physical league and I don’t think we had anyone quaking in their boots at the prospect of battling our 130 lb skill players (I don’t want to be a thug team but I’d like to have some sort of response when our offensive players are hacked down as they were so often this season). For that reason I think Evans makes the list. I’d say Friberg could also fill that role based on his out-of-his-skin performance in that final RSL match, and I’d be inclined to choose him over the man made of glass.
Leo used to be wonderful flying up the left side but his defending seemed to slip as did his offensive threat this season and I don’t think he makes it. I’m a fan of Riley for sure, but if Montreal takes any of our full backs (Riley/Scott, Leo/Wahl) I’m not sure we’re much worse off since we need to improve back there on the whole anyway.
My guess is Montreal takes whichever unprotected player they can get the most for, trading him away much like Vancouver did with Nyassi and Sturgis. (How’s all that draft-y trade-y stuff workin’ out for ya?)
here's the question
Since apparently Alonso does qualify as a “bad a$$”, who do you bench in order to bring on a player with more toughness? Your MVP candidate right mid or your top-class finisher Alvaro Fernandez?
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 9, 2011 7:49 AM PST up reply actions
no, Alonso is...
… for sure. I should have clarified: Alonso, while a bit slight in his role (think Xabi Alonso or Roy Keane as DMs) is absolutely a bad a$$ but he’s somewhat alone. We’re looking at a starting midfield that includes Zak, Flaco, Alonso, and Rosales, with Montero and someone else in front. I look forward to watching them play. I also think we’re vulnerable to thug teams and need some flexibility when we can’t play our preferred eleven because of injuries, etc.
My guess is when it comes to making decisions for who gets those final couple slots on the protected list we’ll opt for players who’ve shown a willingness to put the boot in or who are more physically imposing to complement all the tikka takka. Fucito fits that description, as does Evans (not my preferred choice), and the Swede showed a toughness as well (a little too little too late?). I haven’t had the chance to see OBW (the Beast) much but I suspect it will also be his role.
I think you are exactly right about lacking a physical presence
We need backs with the ability to intimidate. Scratch that. We need the ability to give as good as we’ve gotten. A big part of the reason we got hacked down this year (Anyone need to see that picture of Evans’ ankle again?) was the complete lack of a threat to return the favor.
I don’t want to be a thug team either. But to put it in baseball terms, there is a difference between being willing to throw a brush back pitch, and someone who goes head hunting. No one ever accused Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens or Bob Gibson of being afraid to pitch inside. Being willing to deliver some pain may, in fact, be a requirement to be great.
Does Rosales get hacked down if the other teams know that, at some point in the not too distance future, someone on their team is going to get it 1.5x worse?
I don’t like it. I wish we played in a league where the referees and the skill level didn’t require having enforcers, but we don’t. If we want to win . . . scratch that. If we want to keep our skill guys healthy, if we want to win, if we want the team to truly keep faith with their fans, then we need guys who can throw their weight around.
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