Seattle Sounders Leave Riley, Fucito, Wahl, Gonzalez Available To Expansion Draft
by Dave Clark on Nov 21, 2011 4:15 PM PST
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With the announcement of the twelve players protected from selection in the Montreal Impact's expansion draft there are a few players that could be labeled as "key" to the strong 2011 who were left available for selection. The protected list is heavy on players up the spine was well as wide midfielders but leaves three fullbacks available as neither of the left backs (Tyson Wahl or Leo Gonzalez) nor iron man James Riley are protected. With both central midfielders protected the battle among the 24-26 year old goalscorers is lost by Mike Fucito as he is also available. Those four unprotected player massed 8990 minutes between them and likely provide additional indication that Sigi and the front office are targeting a reworking of wide defense.
A few other players of possible interest to Montreal are Patrick Ianni and Servando Carrasco both who have shown flashes of being starting caliber in MLS are still youngish and don't break the bank. O'Brian White is unprotected while Steve Zakuani is safely in Seattle, but the oft injured and still recovering White is unlikely to be plucked by the Impact.
It is also notable that Miguel Montano, once loaned to the Impact of the NASL, is left available for selection. No trades between Seattle and Montreal were made prior to the Protected List being announced.
Adrian Hanauer released a statement noting the depth of the squad and the expectation that Seattle loses someone who contributed to success over the past year or years.
"Given the fact we've lost three players to expansion drafts the past two seasons we are bracing ourselves for the possibility of losing someone. Despite those losses we have developed a deep squad and grown stronger. We couldn't protect everyone, so some of those who contributed significantly to our success are bound to be exposed. It will be interesting to see how Montreal approaches this."
Seattle Sounders fans will find out which player is selected at Noon Pacific on Wednesday when the Impact will make their Expansion Draft selections during a live conference call streamed at www.MLSSoccer.com.
Who do you expect to leave?
Here are the stats of the players most likely to be of interest to the Impact
|
Role |
Name |
G |
St |
Min |
% Played |
Goals |
Assists |
Points |
PP90 |
PP90 |
Pts |
|
WF |
Mike Fucito |
28 |
17 |
1492 |
35% |
6 |
3 |
15 |
0.90 |
1.13 |
23 |
|
LB |
Tyson Wahl |
26 |
25 |
2259 |
53% |
1 |
2 |
4 |
0.16 |
0.14 |
5 |
|
LB |
Leo Gonzalez |
25 |
22 |
1998 |
47% |
0 |
2 |
2 |
0.09 |
0.09 |
5 |
|
CB |
Patrick Ianni |
22 |
17 |
2149 |
51% |
1 |
0 |
2 |
0.08 |
0.04 |
2 |
|
CDM |
Servando Carrasco |
19 |
11 |
1098 |
26% |
0 |
1 |
1 |
0.08 |
0.08 |
1 |
|
RB |
James Riley |
38 |
36 |
3241 |
77% |
0 |
2 |
2 |
0.06 |
0.11 |
8 |
|
LW |
Miguel Montano |
3 |
1 |
121 |
3% |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0.00 |
0.27 |
2 |
This may be the end of the Church of Fucito. We'll find out Wednesday
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Comments
Brad Evans
There is a valid debate over the value of Brad Evans but he missed 19 games this year and the last we saw he was hobbling of the field injured. Does anyone else think that Montreal would have actually picked him.
by Neem on Nov 21, 2011 4:20 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
1. No
2. Why waste a protected spot on someone that we don’t need?
3. Why waste a protected spot on someone who is likely to spend another season out with injuries?
4. Does ANYBODY other than Sigi think Evans adds anything other than the ability to sky wide open shots? PK’s I guess.
5. Just… No…
by thesafetylemur on Nov 22, 2011 6:52 AM PST up reply actions
You do realize that
Evans had more minutes in all competitions this year than Fucito (not to mention last year as well)? And that Evans is only a year older than Fucito? And that Evans had the third most assists on the team in all competitions behind only Montero and Rosales?
I understand the love for Fucito, and arguments for protecting Riley, but arguing that Evans has no value is, frankly, ridiculous.
by agtk on Nov 22, 2011 7:03 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The Fucito love
is out of hand. He’s the Willie Bloomquist of the Sounders.
No
Fucito actually has on pitch value
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
But the value
doesn’t even come close to the adulation.
Sometimes fandom isn't entirely rational.
As long as it doesn’t make analysis dishonest, who cares?
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
But it is . . .
The adulation IS making the analysis irrational. Fans look at people who “hustle” and place an inordinate amount of value on that.
Fucito is a nice player, and he has more value than Willie Ballgame in their respective sports. But in both cases there is a substantial portion of the fan base that equates running hard with production. There are actually people who looked at Bloomquist’s steals and thought he should start over Ichiro: irrational.
To repeat, Fucito is a better player than Bloomquist, and has more value. But let’s not confuse effort for production. And, please, for the love of all that is rational, let’s not equate Fucito with Messi the way some people have done.
Fucito has been a of adrenaline
…in many/most of the matches he’s played—especially when he’s come in as sub. He’s fast on a team that has been hurting for speed (especially with Zak out). And he’s got that scrappiness that we all adore in Ozzie.
No debate I get more excited when I see Fucito coming on to the pitch than when I see Evans walking on. But even with my reservations about Evans, I think he’s a bigger component to the scoring engine. And I get really excited when we score goals.
I hope we get to keep Fucito, but I’m feeling sanguine about Ochoa and am fine with leaving Fucito unprotected.
by GartLarissa on Nov 22, 2011 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
goal-scoring shrimp...
When Beckham moved to Madrid he ran his tail off to impress but didn’t have immediate impact. My friends there used to call him Forrest Gump, just running and running all day long.
Love Fucito. Will miss him if he goes. Will be happy if/when he prospers elsewhere, like our other surplus energizer bunny now in Philly. He’s a great squad player and I hope we get a chance to see him in sooper cyan next season.
Absolutely none of my analysis about Fucito has been about hustle
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Ive always been a big supporter of Fucito getting more playing time
but the fan fare around him is a little over done
by RaveGreenForever on Nov 22, 2011 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
The adulation has more to do with the backstory than anything else
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Agree completely: not worth the hype.
He’s a nice player, but that’s about it. There’s a reason Adrian felt Ochoa was already more valuable than Fucito.
Looking at the poll for who to protect on the team...
…people thought that Fucito was right on the margin. It’s not like he was polling at 90% and ahead of Alonso and Montero or something. The front office protected him last year. He was probably the first guy left off this year. You could make an argument for protecting him over Neagle, certainly, and maybe Evans (though I am pretty convinced that protecting Evans was the right thing to do), with salary being the reason you might be able to expose Evans.
...and depth, and injury history, and etc....
Fucito and Evans are both players worth protecting from an MLS performance perspective… we don’t need to overstate either player’s shortcomings in this discussion.
Evans is unbelievably overrated
I’ve already gotten into this one before but keeping Evans over Fucito is rediculous, Evans is a turnover machine and an attack killer. I wish they would record turnovers because I’m pretty sure he’d lead the team in that category based on minutes played. And that’s another issue, this guys been injured every single year. The fact that we are protecting Columbus’ reject is a sign we are not an elite team. Fucito is young and has not had the experience Evans has, he is explosive quick and has won games with his tenacity and pressure, letting him go is a mistake. Evans has proven he is an average MLS player that will not get you over the top, Fucito hasn’t even close to peaked yet.
Personally I think Evans has some dirt on Sigi because I’d swear Evans was his son-in law or something the way he talks about this guy.
"Evans is unbelievably overrated"
By who?
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
"unbelievably overrated"
Seems like an unbelievably hyperbolic statement.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 22, 2011 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok well given the company I think I am comfortable with my stance
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Sigi is human
I like Sigi too but that doesn’t mean he’s perfect. I thought this was an unbiased website not a Sounders press site but the way this FO is defended I have to wonder. I think this is one of the most common coaching failures – sticking with your guy because he’s your guy. When you recruit a kid in college or sign a player in the pro’s and he underperforms it’s easy to give them a pass because he’s your guy. This is how coaches eventually lose their jobs. But hey, if you think Sigi can do no wrong then that is your opinion. I think he’s really missing on this one. He’s a great tactical coach but he’s got his blinders on when concerning Evans.
No, I mean Sigi and Adrian know more about soccer than I do.
It has nothing to do with being a “company man” and I have absolutely blasted Sigi on numerous occasions. It just means I have a different opinion than you and when your idea of the best way to defend your opinion is to accuse someone of being a front office shill, it makes me think your opinion isn’t on especially solid footing.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Blasted?
I must have missed those articles but that’s good to know, wasn’t trying to offend you but it seemed you were saying that you were right because Sigi agreed with you.
You must at least admit that Sigi’s player evaluation is questionable at best right? I mean look at all our drafts? Other than Zakuani who was a first overall pick and no-brainer have we found any talent at all in the draft? Fucito is the only other guy that seems good enough to play in MLS. We draft two goalies this year and keep the one from the supplemental draft? And David Estrada? Really? I still have hopes for Tettah but really the only talent we’ve added has been from out of the country, guys who had played at a high level and had already proven themselves to a point. At some point it would be nice to add talent through the draft.
Five players picked in the expansion draft are still on the roster
And there are a few other who have gotten significant playing time during the three seasons.
We did get talent in our drafts
Neagle, Carrasco, Meredith, Ford, Fucito, Seamon, all came from Super Drafts. We got lucky with them too because they were all later round picks. Meredith had a blowout year with Kitsap. Ford has had good reviews in his limited time. I think the amount of good talent we got in later rounds proves our FO is doing something right. If you don’t have a top 5 pick, the rest is kind of a crapshoot to some extent.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 22, 2011 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
Sorry, Neagle was a pre-season trialist, not a draftee
My mistake
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 22, 2011 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
He was a draftee
Then left and came back as I understand it. Similar to Meredith.
my point exactly
None of those guys are solid starters – Neagle didn’t come play until after playing pro for a year and getting experience elsewhere – remember we cut him two seasons ago. If Meredith is so good why did we cut him for Ford? Isn’t that questionable? I really hope the draft isn’t a crap shoot because these guys get paid a lot of money to watch these kids play and decide who can play at the next level.
We have used these guys as starters in league play and in other tourneys
I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think you are giving the FO enough credit. They have to build the team for USOC and CCL too. Cap doesn’t allow for a blowout player in every position, and some of these guys aren’t starters because we have so many good players ahead of them. Also, as with most draftees in any sport, the young guys take a certain amount of time to acclimate to the league. Aaron Rodgers didn’t walk into the NFL and win a Super Bowl, he had to work his way up for five years.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 22, 2011 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
I think you're overvaluing the MLS Super draft
Its really not that super…
Most high level talent in this league is brought in through outside scouting or developed over time. Hardly anyone is drafted from college and is a star right away.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Questionable at best?
The man has helped put together some of the best teams in the leagues history and thats without being able to evaluate players?
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
who are our best players?
Fernandez, Rosales, Zakuani, Montero, Parke, Keller – Zakuani is the only one we drafted and he was the #1 overall pick. All these other guys had played professionally and established themselves somewhere else, they weren’t difficult decisions. Just because the Yankees have a great team every year it doesn’t mean they are great player evaluaters.
Right, but when you draft players they take time to mature.
Expecting every draftee to come in and make an immediate impact is silly.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
I agree they need time to mature but whos showing promise?
Meredith looks good but he was cut once so I don’t quite understand that. Who else is looking like a possible future starter? Carrasco? Athletic but lacks skill. And while I don’t expect it there are guys who are contributing right away – Will Bruin, Michael Farfan, Stephen McCarthy, Jaoa Plata. Those last three were all available to us, not saying they would start every game for us but I think you’d see a future from some of those guys. We draft Leon Cruz and he’s cut within weeks, doesn’t even get a chance to mature – is that good player evaluation?
Meredith vs Ford situation
- kasey Keller – no comment needed
- is Boss while maybe not the greatest GK ever but he has played and trained more in a professional enviroment than the two rookie keepers.
For the #3 spot you have a choice between 2 rookie keepers, both are of about equal value but have a pretty different skillset. Which do you choose? for some reason the Sounders wanted Ford to stay over Meredith.
I wouldn’t say it was an arbitrary decision, but there is a reason Meredith went to Kitsap (in otherwords pretty close by). And it’s not because the Sounders never wanted to see him again. When we had a roster spot to give Meredith he got it pretty quickly.
Also lets say for a minute we drafted one of those players
Would they even have played many minutes on this team?
Bruin probably would have gotten some time with White going down, but I doubt it would have been that much.
Farfan, Plata, and McCarthy are all midfielders. I really don’t see any of them playing much if at all in front of who we already have.
Cruz fit into a projected need at CD. With Hurtado was coming off of a torn ACL it’s not 100% that he would make a full recovery. Just because he didn’t fit now doesn’t mean he was a bad choice.
Hate to break it to you...
But none of those four players would have ever seen the field for this sounders team.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 22, 2011 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
If it was as easy as you're making it sound every team would be finding these players
The yankee example is just wrong. We aren’t dramatically over spending on players until we find one that sticks. We are contained by the same constraints as every other team in the league and we are finding better players then them.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
you are missing my point
These guys spent a lot of time and effort watching Estrada and Meredith etc. But with Mauro he just fell to us because we had an open spot and because he failed a physical in Mexico. He had a legit resume and we took a flyer on him. I would not call that expert player evaluataion. The guy we scout repeatedly (Estrada, Leone Cruz, ) has not shown any improvement but we fall into an MVP quality player in Rosales.
So we didn't scout Fernandez, Montero, Alonso, Hurtado, etc extensively?
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
No
You don’t have to scout guys that have great resume’s, you just have to recruit them.
Cause no team has ever blown a transer right?
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
what do you mean by that?
Some teams do a poor job of using their talent – I’m not accusing Sigi of that – he is a great tactition, I’ve already said that, he gets the most out of his guys, just because a team gets a good player and he doesn’t work for them doesn’t mean he’s not good. And you might remember one Fredi Ljundberg who was our biggest name acquisition – didn’t exactly work out did he? I’m not even blaming Sigi for that – its the drafted players like Estrada who everyone was shocked that we drafted so high and has since done nothing, thats where I question things.
I mean that if signing current pros is so easy there wouldn't be as many terrible transfers that don't pan out.
Signing a player from another league involves just as much skill at evaluating talent as selecting from a college draft.
This isn’t FIFA. Its not like players playing professionaly already have a set skill number and unsigned rookies have a skill range from 60-80.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
Signing Rost wasn't a blown transfer because he was used wrong by New York
It was a bad transfer because they didn’t realize he was terrible, but he had a great resume so they signed him anyway.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Really?
Give me an example of a guy who’s extremely succesful in one league and then just pitiful in another comparable league? You’re telling me that taking a legit starter from say a good team in Holland takes as much work and scouting as selecting a good player in the MLS draft? Trust me, it doesn’t. That’s like Seattle U basketball having to decide between a transfer from Gonzaga that’s averaging 10pts per game vs a high school kid – you have to really put a lot of work in on the high school kid to decide if he’s good – the Gonzaga kid you take without watching a single game.
Pretty good example. Jarju for the Whitecaps.
Played several years in Belgium and was extremely successful. PLayed for his youth national team. 25 years old. Good resume, Signed by Vancouver as a DP.
He had a terrible year with the whitecaps and is not on their protected list.
Transfers are risky, especailly internationally. We do a better job at evaluating international players then most clubs in this league.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
Jarju is also not a guaranteed failure yet either
Fernandez struggled his first half season in MLS. If Jarju gets through preseason he might actually be able to adjust and start actually performing.
Is it because he's bad or just not a good fit?
Seahawks signed Deon Branch and he never does much, he ruturns to New England and is a solid starter again. Did they just miss on Jarju, is MLS just way better than Belgiums top league? I don’t buy it. Ljundberg was very good but not a good fit for us, doesn’t mean he’s not an everyday starter in MLS. How many games you think they live scouted him? I’m telling you, you don’t scout those guys, you just recruit them. Theres a difference.
I can assure you that Adrian and the FO actually scout
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Are you kidding me?
It is very common for international transfers to fail like that. If scouting was only based on stats, then any fool with money could build a successful team.
Yes
They both obviously have people who know a lot about building a team.
How about man city?
Real Madrid? You think these teams are good because they have good scouts?
Yes.
I think all teams that are good are good because they have people there who know how to build a team.
Man City is actually a good example that just money does not guarantee success. They have had the money for awhile now, and only now they are beginning to have a team that can win trophies.
Chelsea was a similar story: after Abramovic’s money came along, they weren’t immediately one of the best teams in the league.
The Yankess were terrible for years.
Money helps, but you have to have good people making the decisions. Brian Cashman is a good GM. Alex Ferguson is a legendary manager.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Judging by his nearly 35K comments on Lookout Landing
I’m pretty sure he has. Have you ever heard of the Mets?
by ubelmann on Nov 22, 2011 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
No.
I have never heard of money ball.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely
Come on, you don’t have to disagree with me about everything – we can disagree on Brad Evans – I get it, I understand your arguements there I just disagree. But don’t tell me signing players and drafting players is the same thing.
It's not the same, but to act like scouting is easy is insanity.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
It's not
I never said it was easy, not at all, I said I don’t think Sigi is the greatest player evaluator that’s all. He seem seems to be a great coach, great tactition, gets the most out of his guys, but I sometimes just wonder what he see’s in guys. Evans over Fucito – Ford over Meredith, Wahl over Leo, Estrada, Leon Cruz…
just to point it out...
The book is far from closed on Estrada (or even Leone Cruz for that matter). Sometimes players have long development times and end up successful at the MLS level, and it’s not like Estrada’s had much opportunity in game play.
You're complaining about Leo Gonzales being benched
am I in bizarro world?
Remind which players we got from top leagues...
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 22, 2011 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
Alonso was playing in USL.
Montero and Hurtado were playing in leagues below MLS in stature. Fernandez was the only one of those with a “great resume” and most people had never heard of him.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
And sigi has coached them up
I guess I just think our success has been more about coaching these guys and making them play together than the players talent level as a unit. But it is looking like everyone disagree’s with me on this one. I think guys like Alonso and Montero could easily be misused on another team, I think playing for Sigi has certainly boosted their stature as pro players.
I'll give you Montero and Hurtado
I have no idea what their resume’s were before coming to Seattle so maybe we found some gems there. Fernandez was playing for a W Cup semi-final team, Alonso was the best player in his league, Rosales played for Ajax and River Plate.
You think that any player who played for Ajax and River Plate will be a success in MLS?
No further scouting/analysis needed?
I hate to agree with him
But that’s a pretty good resume…
No
I’m saying that the analysis is minimal compared to scouting a player in the draft – I’m saying you can’t compare the two. You ask is he too old? Is he hurt? is he a bad teammate? How much? Does he fit what we need? You generally aren’t trying to find out if he can play at that level.
What's the difference between scouting a player
who has 4 years of college ball vs. 4 years in usl? I don’t think there’s a magic difference where one is simply reading a resume and the other is not.
-Ben R.
Huge difference
USL is much more competitive, pro ball is also much more cut throat, college soccer allows you to sub off and on. Players are older, more physically mature in USL, there’s a lot more you have to study in the college game to evaluate talent. Less teams with talent less spread out in USL, I can keep going… But I wouldn’t compare the two because honestly if a guy went to USL its probably because no one wanted him in MLS or higher, so you don’t scout USL much, waste of time. But if one guy is dominating USL, he’s probably worth a look (Alonso). If a guy is dominating in college you have to really see who he’s playing, how he is succesful, what he can do, what skills/ability he possesses – do they translate – etc. It gets even easier when your talking about other pro leagues.
There are only 11 spots on the field
and 7 on the bench per game. Of course people who are more established and played professionally before are WAY more likely to see the field than a rookie who has only ever played amateur soccer.
Zakuani started partially because he is an amazing talent but partially because we had absolutely no depth to start the season and he was pretty much the only real winger we had.
One of Ford or Meredith are pretty likely going to become our starting keeper in 2-3 years. Carrasco has shown he has a similar skill set to Alonso, and has been good enough, for a rookie, when Alonso was off this year. Estrada made some strides this year, Tetteh will probably play a little next year.
All players develop differently and we’ve gotten a decent amount of talent out of the draft.
Don't forget.
Zak didn’t even start right away. He worked his way up from the bench. Our original starting lineup was Nyassi and Le Toux on the wing.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
I don't get something...
an “eye for talent” can only be applied to a coach if they are succesful in the draft? Sigi et al get no credit for the players you just mentioned?
Brad Evans has 4 caps with the USMNT and 2 with the U20's
His caps also came as a right back.
If the team is thinking of transitioning him more to a RB than a CM, protecting him over Riley and Fucito makes sense.
Hard to overrate a non-DP USMNT member.
He was good enough to make the C team, which is more than most can say
So not just Sigi, but the hated Egyptian coach Bob Bradley also values what Brad Evans brings to the table!
My point really was that it was a long time ago
He has not been in the USMNT radar for a while now
That's true
But how many players on our roster have ever even gotten that much attention from the USMNT? For instance, I hear that the US could use some good strikers, how many caps does Fucito have?
It’s not like a couple C-team caps makes Evans the next Landon Donovan, but it is an independent assessment from a different coaching staff that they liked what they see in Evans. Not being good enough for the national team hardly disqualifies someone from being a productive player in MLS.
Is the last sentence an argument for Evans of Fucito
Because it could be either.
I'm not really arguing for or against Fucito
So much as I’m arguing that both are good players, and there’s no slam dunk case for either. I think it makes sense to protect Evans, and my inclination is to believe that in a very general sense center mids are more valuable than forwards, but if they had protected Fucito over Evans then I think you can make a case there, too.
The USMNT call-up is an indication that a different coach likes what Evans brings to the table, which is relevant when we are wondering whether he would get picked if exposed in the expansion draft.
...4 not particularly successful caps...
protecting a player over a conversion project which may or may not be successful isn’t a good strategy, particularly when the team has given little indication of trying it out.
C-team caps
as someone else mentioned he was basically called up because they were resting guys and just trying players out – I was at the last game he played which was in Seattle and he promptly turned the ball over creating a goal for the other team, you can get away sometimes with turning it over at CM but not at RB. I don’t see him getting anymore call ups.
I believe
Sigi is biased towards Evans because of his time in Columbus
by RaveGreenForever on Nov 22, 2011 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
4:
Yes. Good God I am so tired of this. I think Evans is actually a good player. A whole lot of other people agree with me. You are entitled to your opinion that he is not, but the way this issue is framed is absolutely infuriating.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
And
6. He’s the best midfielder we have in the air in terms of controlling the ball
7. He’s solid on D and a reasonably good offensive player for a box-to-box mid (just look at his goals and assists totals this season, even taking out the PKs). Then remember he did that in 19 games.
by Nevtelen on Nov 22, 2011 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Evans
I think Montreal takes Evans in a heartbeat if he is unprotected and Riley is protected. If it is Evans and Riley unprotected, I think Riley is the guy to go. His consistency is exactly what a new defensive unit (like ours in 2009). As it is now, I would bet Riley is gone. Much harder to find an experienced and dependable right back than a moderately talented forward.
Shit...
I used the same phrase as Campeau and it makes me look like a copier. Damn him and his fast typing.
sure
veteran leadership and skill that builds a midfield that frustrates teams with greater talent all year? I could see that.
You can make a case for all the “bubble” guys. Riley would make a good pick. Fucito is arguably a perfect pick for an expansion team, too.
Evans is also $134k/year - Fucito is $42k/year - Right?
Yeah. Riley. Wow. Will miss him BUNCHES too.
#pickmontanoplease
Sports.
Trade value?
We could be keeping evans for a possible trade (Pure Speculation). Maybe we trade for someone like Robbie Russell. I like Russell very solid defender.
This is a dream, right?
FF, I’m still going to be a silent follower of the faith even if Fucito gets selected.
I don't think Riley goes...
If Montreal wants a RB, they can also take the Rapids’ Kimura (about $65K) or RSL’s Robbie Russell (about $130K).
Fucito was hitting posts and drawing PKs and generally irritating defenses even when he was in his late-year goal-scoring slump. They’d be crazy not to take him. We obviously see something in Ochoa worth protecting, and the pressure is on him next year to be a consistent goal-scorer to justify his inclusion on this list.
I think he did that.
He at least had a better 2011 than Nyassi or Sturgis. If Fucito goes, I know I’m going to be comparing Ochoa and Fucito all year long, fair or not.
I have a good deal of trust in the FO when it comes to evaluating players I haven't seen much of
Sigi has seen more of Ochoa than I have, and I do wonder what Ochoa is going to look like after a full off-season/training camp with our strength coach and training staff. For a big guy, he’s pretty quick. One take-away I get from this is I’m a little more excited about Ochoa.
I hope you're right about Ochoa...
…but I can’t help but think that when he finally got a start in a big game, in the first leg against RSL, he basically became invisible. When we started Fucito instead in the second leg, we became instantly much better. I hope Ochoa improves with maturity, but, right now, he seems only effective when paired up against mediocre center backs or when coming in late after the defense has been worn out.
by regnaD kciN on Nov 22, 2011 12:18 AM PST up reply actions
The difference in the two legs
was not simply starting Fucito for Ochoa. There are dozens of reasons why we played better in the second leg.
Yes but that was one of them
Another big reason is we started possession oriented Friberg in place of turn-over oriented Brad Evans at CM. As bad as our effort was in the first leg if Evans doesn’t turn the ball over as many times as he did we may maintain possession and give up only 1 or 2 goals. But not starting Fucito was a mistake – he is clearly a mismatch for those slow RSL defenders, he caused problems for them in regular season and in the second leg, he should have been in there. Good luck in Montreal Fucito. I hope I am happily surprised and they don’t take him.
everybody turned the ball over in the first leg
You can’t just put that on Evans. I’m not even sure he turned the ball over more than anyone else. It didn’t seem to matter which player had the ball. Evans wasn’t the most glaring disappointment in that match. That honor would go to Alonso, Riley, and Neagle.
Don’t forget that Evans started the second leg and we were attacking like crazy before his injury.
That being said, I would have exposed Evans and protected Fucito because of salary and injuries, not because he’s not a good player. Then again, maybe Sigi knows something about what Montreal is looking for in the draft.
by Randy Meeker on Nov 22, 2011 10:29 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Evans started the 2nd leg too
and its not like we sucked until he got injured.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Nov 22, 2011 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
In fact I say we missed towards the end.
Evans can play 90 minutes. Friberg can’t. It would have been nice to sub Friberg off later in the game and keep Evans on the pitch.
-Ben R.
I would disagree that Evans can play 90' minutes
He is the glassman and seems to get injured almost every time he sees the pitch.
Recessionproof since 2009.
Evans had 13 MLS matches with 90 minutes in 2011
Subbed out 3 times in the 70-90 minute range.
A recent post on this site
Actually pretty clearly showed that Evans is a little bit better of a pure possession midfielder than Friberg in that he connects a higher % of his passes. Friberg is a little bit more of an attacking passer.
can you give me a link?
I would love to see that explained – Evans turns it over and plays passes behind guys or too far ahead to kill so many attacks, I can’t believe someone would suggest he is the better possession player, all Friberg does is one touch the ball to the next guy, he never plays with it, never tries to be fancy, just gives it up.
it's possible he's referring to...
…this link. My discussion/analysis was intended to address the difference in role played by Evans vs. Friberg as CM – arguing that Evans attempts more possession play with his feet given the clear evidence of his pass distribution. On a basic level, Evans “completes” a higher percentage of his passes, but my argument was that the difference is mainly attributable to pass difficulty.
Overall impact on team possession requires further work than is immediately available to us, because one needs to take into account a few stats I wasn’t counting at the time. At any rate, the numbers don’t support the idea that either player is particularly awful in possession. I think most of us would agree that Friberg is a better dribbler than Evans and is quicker in distribution, both of which would serve him well against Salt Lake’s high pressure, but are not necessarily deciding factors in every circumstance.
by nimajneb on Nov 22, 2011 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good points
Evans strong aerial presence in midfield, good defensive positioning, and well timed runs make him a better MF for bunker-and-counter teams, IMHO. It’s for Sigi to have options in that important CM spot.
The SAH Links Guy
Would not read too much into one match
There were many others who had a terrible match in Salt Lake. Riley and Neagle are two that come to mind immediately. And look how Neagle turned things around in the second leg.
Not to pile on...
…but I think in that RSL game, Ochoa got very little service. He struggled early in the game when he did get the ball, but then everything fell apart and I don’t think he really had much chance to make an impact. Plus, the Sounders clearly felt Ochoa needed to make strides with his fitness, and Rio Tinto isn’t the best place to be playing if you’re less than 100% fit.
trade ochoa for riley
& this is my list. I like it.
Adrian isn't actually complaining about losing players in the expansion draft, is he?
Considering how recently we were beneficiaries of the draft ourselves, it seems a bit hypocritical.
Two of our protected 11 were obtained in the 2008 expansion draft (Parke and Evans), another three are still with the squad (Riley, Jaqua and Wahl) and one of our three expansion losses (Sturgis) was himself snatched from RSL in the 2008 draft.
We also obtained Pete Vagenas and Stephen King (along with Jarrod Smith, and Khano Smith) in the 2008 draft.
I can see older teams bitching about it, but we’re not exactly in a position to do so yet.
Sounds like he's being realistic
He’s done a good job finding talent, so it’s natural that we would lose players in an expansion draft.
If you read Hanauer's comment as a complaint, I think you are looking for something that isn't there
It’s a realistic assessment of the situation. We just finished 2nd overall in the league and we’ve made the playoffs three straight years. We have a deep team. We’ve had players picked in each expansion draft so far. It’s likely that we will again this year. No one knows how Montreal is going to assess this group of players. These ought not to be controversial statements. If anything, he’s just talking up the depth of our squad and publicly stating that he values everyone on our squad and would rather not lose anyone in the draft. (Something I think most of us would appreciate from our respective bosses.)
by ubelmann on Nov 21, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It is worth mentioning that Riley was exposed in 2009...
…and as everyone knows, Nowak went for Le Toux instead of Riley. And I think the case is there that Fucito is right up there with Le Toux.
Overall, I think you can make a good case for picking Fucito, Riley, Ianni, or Carrasco. I think you can make less solid, but defensible arguments for Montano and OBW. It seems really, really unlikely to me that Gonzalez or Wahl would be amongst the 10 most valuable available players in Montreal’s view.
Also have to consider...
Who might want to trade some allocation bucks to Montreal for some of the available players? Maybe Portland still wants Fucito… this would pretty much be the worst thing ever.
I’ve been looking over the lists for players I think the Sounders should try to nab, but honestly I don’t really see too much.
If I'm Montreal...
…I’d rather have players than allocation dollars. As an expansion club, I think they already get additional allocation money, and it’s probably not a good long-term strategy to figure that you can use allocation money to run an expensive club for three years only to see that money dry up all of a sudden.
After last year, I’m ready for just about anything to happen. If someone in the league wants anyone on the protected list enough, they can make a deal with Montreal to get their man.
I really do not understand keeping Evans, at all
Fucito brought spark and work rate. Evans … what, slowed passing and injuries? I know Sigi and he go way back (Evans) but I really think they botched this one. Otherwise, no complaints with the list. But in MLS, a creative and high work rate aggressive striker is so rare to find, and Fucito at times was just that. Evans… what does he bring, occasional set pieces? He’s an MLS mid. We have a league full of guys like Evans, they’re a dime a dozen, pick any one.
by luckystriker on Nov 21, 2011 4:48 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Spark and work rate
!= production. Fucito has been a fun talisman, nothing more.
Just better at producing results than Neagle
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Come on Dav
Are you really trying to say that Mike Fucito contributed more to this team than Lamar Neagle last year?
No matter what you think about Fucito
he never disappeared in games the way Neagle sometimes did. Fucito always put himself in goal-dangerous situations, even if he had trouble finishing toward the end of the year.
Neagle had some great moments, for sure, but he wasn’t a consistent contributor. He’s shown skill that’s worth keeping around, but based on least year’s play, Fucito produced more.
"It's scintillating, it's sensational, it's Seattle Sounders FC soccer."
by LoiteringWithIntent on Nov 22, 2011 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with you 100% but we seem to be in the minority
Fucito threatened defenses with his speed and with pressuring the ball, how many turnovers does he cause with his pressure? Evans just turns it over and makes horrible passes to kill attacks. Fucito has had defenders sent off with red cards because they can’t keep up with him, he has created multiple PK opportunities – including the one in the 2nd leg. We have great depth in midfield not up top. Makes no sense to keep Evans over Fucito.
Evans and Fucito play differant spots on the field
Not sure why this arguement has become Evans over Fucito. Its really Ochoa over Fucito.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
no it isn't...
Ochoa plays a different physical target forward role than Fucito, and Sigi unequivocally prefers his tall/small pairing. Pairing Fucito and Montero was a demand of necessity in the personnel available this year. The decision on protection ultimately falls to protecting a second small forward or a third (imho) non-holding CM.
Some view Evans as the weakest link on the protected list
I’m actually pretty surprised that more people haven’t raised the question of why Ochoa and Neagle are on the list over Fucito. Neagle in particular has less time with the team and would seem to be lower on the depth chart at his position than Fucito is at his position.
Swap Neagle and Fucito...
…and we’d be having the same argument about youth, health and upside vs. central role, veteran presence. The main difference is that Neagle has a slightly better versatility argument and Fucito has a stronger depth argument.
The depth argument is why I'm surprised Neagle's name hasn't come up more
Especially with a reluctance to play Flaco centrally, if Friberg gets injured and we don’t have Evans, I’m concerned about the center of the pitch. If Flaco, Rosales, and Zak all get injured and we don’t have Neagle, we can still use Evans or Friberg on the outside, and Tetteh could even be an option there at some point next year. This makes me wonder if Neagle is being considered as an option at forward next season.
Neagle is almost certainly being considered at forward...
Since he was considered but not used in that capacity at the end of this season. At CM, Carrasco is unlikely to be taken, and either Fernandez or Rosales are capable of playing centrally and have at least modest experience there. Neagle is additional insurance against Zakuani returning slowly, since he probably gets starters minutes there if (in an ideal world) Fernandez moves to CM.
Neagle’s name simply hasn’t come up more because most of the people who have a problem with protecting Evans are the same who would have trouble protecting him over Neagle.
Incredibly smart gamesmanship by the FO
By putting both of our starting left backs up, and our starting right back we essentially ensure we only lose one back max yet still were able to protect our midfielders. Add in the rumor about signing a new international left back and this list is pretty good.
What is this rumor?
I’ve only heard that there is a rumor, and not actually seen the rumor itself.
said rumor
http://www.mls-rumors.net/21115/2011/11/incoming-norwegian-joachim-thomassen-to-seattle-sounders-fc
It’s pure rumor. Most likely nothing to it but there is an indication the organization is looking for an upgrade at LB/RB. They also pretty much stated it right after we beat RSL to get kicked out of the MLS playoffs.
There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO THAT!
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
There may not be anything to the Thomassen rumor,
but the FO is looking to upgrade/strengthen at fullback.
How does leaving three backs unprotected change anything?
We can only lose one player to this process, regardless of who was chosen.
Was montano loan basically...
Hey- take him!
Another way to look at this is...
Is there anyone on the unprotected lists that you’d like to see Seattle make a deal for? Russell? Kimura? Adu? Convey?
na
no way seattle is gonna trade for adu. Not for that ammount that adu is making ($594.8k)
Well
there were several post draft trades last year maybe there is a trade that involves such and such player to here for such and such already agreed and Montreal is being the middle man here like how we got white from Vancouver.
I'd take Kimura....
position of need. Some tempting midfielders is we somehow lose depth in that area.
Also a good marketing angle as...
There is a strong Seattle-Japan connection with a large Japanese-American population as well as a number of Japanese tourists already coming to see Ichiro. Kimura is the only Japanese national in MLS and the seasons cross overlap completely. It could be a good opportunity to expand our fan-base while landing a quality player at a position of need.
I don't know if this is really that big of an angle
As far as I know, Riley isn’t drawing many Koreans or Korean-Americans. I think that the player would need to be a national teamer to draw that sort of attention.
perhaps not...
but there isn’t a group of Korean sports tourists already in town to which we could market. There already is a small, but steady, group of Japanese sports tourists here who probably aren’t currently following the Sounders.
there is a huge Korean population in the Puget Sound
It may actually be bigger than the Japanese population. The problem might be that people don’t know that he’s Korean. Hell, I didn’t know until now.
There’s also a big difference between a guy that made his career back in Japan before coming to the US and a Korean-American from Colorado.
If Kimura is actually on the national team, there might be something to it.
by Randy Meeker on Nov 22, 2011 10:35 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Can someone explain...
the difference between Kimura and Riley? In limited watching they seem interchangeable. I’d rather keep Riley. If we had both that would be sweet i guess.
younger for one...
cost another (and it’s not entirely Riley vs. Kimura we’re discussing, but also Kimura vs. Scott)… and Riley’s defense was quite shaky on a regular basis this season. I’m not convinced that Kimura is better (having not exactly been religious with my Rapids-watching), but I’m convinced he could try to be.
Valentin & Convey
That’s the fullback pair I’d love to have.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
by Dave Clark on Nov 21, 2011 7:18 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
It just says that he's available for the expansion draft
not that they are going to pick him
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
yes
but he is the kind of all star one could build a back line around. good veteran.
Expansion teams
should be taking the Valentin’s of the world, not the Convey’s.
Jaqua and Marshall were strong additions in 09
Going young in expansion doesn’t help a team win.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Agreed....the smart approach is...
to pick a good combination of youth/potential and veteran leadership. Montreal in having picked Rivas first may indicate that they are building from the back forward…or it could mean they are building down the middle first (never a bad idea). But if you were to put Rivas in the middle and Convey at left back, you’ve got a good start…add Ianni and his relatively affordable salary in the middle with Rivas and Kimura at RB and you have, in my opinion, a better than average MLS back line.
It will be interesting to see how they approach it.
RE: taking older players…no one was saying last year “OOOH…30 year old Jack Jewsbury…what a CATCH!”…but he was the anchor of that team.
Perhaps
Seattle plans to clean house (no more jaqua and nonnan) , add a couple new strikers and fuctio somehow ends up on the bottom of the forward depth chart. That the only hypothetical reason i could see why Seattle would leave Fuctio unprotected.
That's a lot of forwards to be signed in the worst case scenario that
Fucito gets taken in the expansion draft, White does not return, and we get rid of Jaqua and Noonan. We’d be left with Montero, Ochoa, and Levesque. At least 3 new guys would be needed.
Shouldn't
be too hard. We could sign Okoli to HGP contract, sign someone from free agency or transfer, rentry draft, super draft etc.
Like it said its just a hypothetical reason why Seattle left Fucito unprotected.
Or, maybe, "we'd be left with Ochoa and Levesque"...
…if Fredy heads off to Europe this winter.
by regnaD kciN on Nov 22, 2011 12:21 AM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't bet against Jaqua returning
If the trainers think they can get him healthy for a few months in a row, I think he can contribute again. That is to say, I think talk of his uselessness has been exaggerated. Noonan probably gets a Vagenas send-off this year, but we’ll see, I guess.
we'll
find out soon with the re-entry draft in a few week if Jaqua has a future in seattle assuming he isn’t taken Wednesday.
They'd be idiots to take Jaqua with the players available
Fucito is young and getting better, Jaqua is old and recovering from multiple surgeries and has yet to find MLS form again.
As long as Jaqua doesn’t mind taking pay cuts, and he has and might continue to, we’ll have a spot for him for a couple more years.
Noonan on the other hand, really proved useless, there’s not as many excuses for his lack of MLS form.
I agree Jaqua has some worth at the right salary.
I still think he makes too much for his contribution. Levesque makes mimimum salary and he contruibutes far more. Maybe we leave Jaqua available for the re-entry draft and if no-one takes him, re-negotiate with him during the stage 2 rentry draft. Just a thought.
How does Ianni rank
against the other available CBs? I think he is actually somewhat likely and perhaps we aren’t talking about him because no one would mind seeing him go.
-Ben R.
Don't like this...
Putting aside any performance-related argument, we’re defending 7 midfielders for four spots and leaving an additional one exposed with some established competency (at league-average) at the level. The team has proven resilient at losing any one (or two) of those players for some decent amount of time. We’re protecting two of only three forwards who ended the season healthy in at least league average form. Seattle is not in a good position to expose Fucito, even if they intend to borrow from the strength of the midfield (e.g. moving Neagle forward).
If we lose him, I will be bitter.
Seattle
did have a lot of injuries in the midfield last year so i can see why they were more midfield minded in the protected list.
Midfield Depth was probably the biggest reason for our success this season
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
and ultimately, we CAN'T end up any weaker...
…in midfield depth than we were this season, assuming full retention of the protecteds.
Forward depth was a reason for inconsistency this season, and by certain not-unreasonable scenarios (White not returning in any timely or effective manner, Ochoa not panning out), it could end up worse.
If we seek to improve or maintain the form of this season, the decision between exposing midfield or forward seems clear to me, even putting aside non-performance matters such as injury history and cost of contract.
*Can't be worse...
assuming Zakuani returns in a timely manner to league-average or above form.
But Zakuani does not play in the forward position
And I don’t think a conversion to that role is in the plans.
that was referring to midfield...
We spent a substantial amount of the season at -1 in midfield and a fair amount at -2. Our -1 at forward might well remain -1… and forward was much shallower to begin with.
Philosophy
One thing we do not know is Montreal’s philosophy on the expansion draft. Essentially, are they going to try to build a squad with the players they pick or are they doing to VAN/POR thing of picking guys and then trading for other players/tools with which to build their squad? If they are the former, I think Riley, one of the left backs, or Ianni are favorites. If it is the latter, I look more towards Fucitol or even Montono.
by @Thomas513 on Nov 21, 2011 5:42 PM PST via mobile reply actions
After see
how that went last year who knows what’s gonna happen post draft.
#iglesia_de_ochoa
It just doesn’t have the same ring…
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
by chrisso on Nov 21, 2011 5:56 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
just noticed something somewhat ironic...
The Rapids protected Danny Earls and did not protect Sanna Nyassi.
Thought that was interesting.
Sanna could be moving again. He seemed to have a pretty good season, would be a good pickup for Montreal.
I think I'd take Ianni.
Fucito is awesome, but I think Ianni offers more to a young team.
Unofficial Sounder Fan Club President - South Dakota Division
I'll bet they take Riley or Ianni.
With the first pick in the draft Montreal is almost certain to take the top attacking player available. Having a solid defender to lead the backline seems like a no-brainer for a 1st year team.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 21, 2011 6:27 PM PST reply actions
Arguably...
…Kimura, even Sinovic or Valentin from a building perspective.
Riley might not be the best option from a positional perspective taking into account age, cost and upside. As much as I (and many) have made the case for Riley due to poor depth on the Sounders… there are many reasons to go elsewhere for fullback.
True. I'm just not seeing them take say, a Fucito from us.
Especially when you look at attackers that other teams left un-protected.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 21, 2011 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
I'm thinking Wahl might be the best fit.
He’s got starting experience, can attack and provide set pieces, and is improving his on-the-ball defense. He’s 27, but could be a LB feature for awhile.
I’m not sold Ianni could step up to be a leader, but they could certainly develop him if they find him the right partner.
his defense is too weak...
and his upside is pretty low for an expansion team. Wahl could be (and is) a useful role player, but Montreal spending a pick on him would be a poor value selection from the Sounders and from the draft as a whole.
I'll continue to believe Fullbacks are the least valuable position on the pitch
An international level Fullback can be valuable, but we won’t be losing Riley. I think they’ll take Fucito, but it wouldn’t be too much of a surprise if they take Ianni as both are young with a ton of potential.
Why on earth do you think fullbacks are the least valuable position on the pitch?
Do you mean monetary wise or contribution wise? Either way, why?
La Vecchia Signora Forever!
They're fringe support players and see the fewest important touches
There’s exceptions to every rule, there’s some Fullbacks that are incredibly valuable, but on average they’re not. I should put together average salaries by position sometime.
In the modern game, and particularly in Sigi's system, the fullbacks are expected to contribute significantly going forward as well as be solid defensively.
After religiously watching a team who had terrible (read: really really terrible) fullbacks all last year (not the sounders), the contrast with decent fb’s this year is night and day, and the difference really does extend to other areas of the pitch.
I judge by your second statement that you were referring to $ rather than contribution…just don’t under-rate the importance of this position.
La Vecchia Signora Forever!
Especially when you play with inverted wingers like Zakuani that cut inside
Fullbacks in the modern game provide crosses and help create space or outlets for wingers with their overlapping runs. I don’t expect MLS to have a wingback that tear up the pitch like Glenn Johnson this weekend or be the next Phillip Lahm, but full backs make a lot of important touches, and it isn’t just support.
-Ben R.
I meant both on field and salary least valuable, in every sense of the phrase
I’m not saying they’re worthless and should be removed from the game and everyone should play 9 on 9 without them. I understand the emphasis on attacking fullbacks that Sigi and others are stressing, but I think I’m being misunderstood. I’m saying they’re the least valuable position on the field, and no one has made a point to say they’re more valuable than any other position, just arguing that Sigi is stressing them and they’re important etc, but if someone thinks they’re NOT the least valuable position on the field, what position are they more valuable than?
Otherwise you’re just ignoring my statement and blowing me off as not knowing anything. Make a compelling argument that they’re worth more than another position and why. My argument is that they’re fringe players and see the least amount of important touches (read not passing along the back line and to the keeper) and are probably paid as such though I’ve never checked salaries, I figure they’re probably paid the least of all the positions.
I disagree
Comparing the importance of different positions is a bit like asking which tastes better, lasagna or chocolate cake?
But I will say this. Fullbacks are extremely important in both ends of the field. Only box-to-box midfielders cover as much ground and are as involved in as many plays in a match.
by AAAA on Nov 22, 2011 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, apparently both the FO and I disagree with you
And I like lasagna better than chocolate cake, and I still think fullbacks are the least valuable position on the field. I’d rank them Forward, Wing, Mid, Keeper, Centerback, Fullback.
All positions are extremely important, but in an exercise such as this in which we’re forced, absolutely forced to pick one offspring over the other, I’ve made my pick and stood by it, while you’ve beaten around the bush.
Actually, Mid over Wing
I’ll stick with the rest, though I might even be tempted to rank Keeper over Wing, but I prefer attacking players and an attacking style.
I fail to see how you can differentiate
Considering an attacking fullback can do anything a wing or outside mid player can do with the added benefit of playing defense, I’m not sure how they make your least valuable list.
It seems like a fairly complicated issue to sort out
If you just go by salaries, there could be a number of things that make a particular position the least paid overall, but generally the main factor behind a position being paid the least is that there are many close substitutes that you could choose to play that position. The canonical example would be kicker in gridiron football. NFL kickers are paid very little not because their job is not important, but because there are a lot more than 30 guys qualified to be an NFL kicker. In that sense, you could say it is the least important position, but there could still be some elite kickers out there who are worth paying a premium for.
I do get the impression that fullback is a bit like that. For instance, I don’t think anyone could be as one-footed as Wahl and get an MLS start as a center mid or a forward. Maybe as an outside mid. But Wahl, while imperfect, was a perfectly serviceable LB for the Sounders.
Clearly you have a very different understanding of the modern game than I do
I’ll just leave it at that.
You may be right in MLS because the average talent level of fullbacks is quite low.
Eventually someone will exploit that. Good fullbacks can be absolutely deadly.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
I thought Sean Franklin looked pretty impressive on Sunday
But I agree that fullbakcs like him are the exception rather than the rule in MLS.
Again, exceptions, I'm talking overall
I agree that certain fullbacks can be difference makers, win games, and be team MVP caliber players, but on average, least valuable position on the field, period.
In MLS, probably.
In terms of outfield players at least.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 22, 2011 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Look at who some of the other teams left available.
Freddy Adu
Brian Ching
Adam Christman
Omar Bravo
Robbie Russell
Andy Williams
I don’t know who the Impact will take but they have some nice options.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 21, 2011 6:50 PM PST reply actions
Sad that Adu isnt protected. I had hopes that he would become a star for the US men's national team
But he isnt even one of the top 11 players on a MLS squad? Ouch!
by SeahawksPhan on Nov 21, 2011 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
I think his salary comes into account on this
I think Nowak is banking on Montreal not wanting to take over his salary in order to effectively have a 12th protected player.
He's like Joseph
Huge, but not DP
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Sums it up quite nicely
Which is why I think Philly is ok to let Adu hang out like he is because cost/benefit isn’t there for Montreal.
Especially since
there won’t be nearly as much made up on the publicity/merchandising end with him playing for the wrong national team.
He didn't seem to be a starting 11 selection for the last few months of SKC's season.
I know injuries factored into that, but his form as well as salary probably will affect Montreal’s decision. I was also wondering if Bravo would walk away from the MLS to play somewhere else. He seems expendable to SKC with their group of young strikers, but I know I wouldn’t mind having him at all.
Defensive Player
Becuase of the high quantity of great offensive players for Montreal to selcect (Chaves, Mendoza, Bravo, Adu) I doubt they will take a player like Fucito as a forward. He does have midfield experience, but I think a defender is more likely to go. You cannot say the best unprotected player leaves, you have to look at what else Montreal has, and what they need.
by RaveGreenForever on Nov 21, 2011 6:57 PM PST reply actions
There are some financial considerations...
Fucito is cheap, and many of the others are not, setting aside any winkwinknodnod deals (e.g. from Ives Galarcep’s twitter “Plenty of people asking about Adu being unprotected. Nowak & Jesse Marsch know each other well. One way or another, I don’t see Adu taken”).
This made me wonder.
Would Adu, or any American player, count as an International if they play for one of the Canadian sides?
Don’t think so, not sure.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 21, 2011 7:12 PM PST up reply actions
no...
Canadian and U.S. nationals count in domestic slots for Canadian teams.
Really?
I know that there’s some nationality discrimination law that prevents the league from treating Canadian players as national players (thus giving them preferable hiring treatment). I would be somewhat surprised if Canada didn’t have similar antidiscrimination laws.
Either they don't
or they don’t apply. MLS rules specifically state that US players count as domestics for Canadian teams.
Surprised we did no trades
I am surprised we didn’t do any trades this time. Maybe our deadwood is so dead that there was nothing to be had. Overall, I am not too preoccupied with who we may lose. Sorry if we see a familiar face go, but SSFC has some other serious issues to attend to. We lose at max 1 body here, and I think most would agree, we need help at F and D and the retention or loss of a player in those spots does not affect our issue. Oh yeah, and there is a GK to worry about too. At least for once, the expansion draft is only a nuisance to us, even if we lose Mikey-too-tall.
by Brougham Hooligan on Nov 21, 2011 7:22 PM PST reply actions
I don't mean "serious" as in sky is falling
I mean that we need to shore up D and a F far more than worrying about the loss of a Fucito or Riley. The tweaking we need is not affected by the loss of any unprotected player here.
On a side note, I completely agree with the Honorable Grant Wahl: “Finally we can retire the notion that teams who are willing to drop some coin for star power are at a competitive disadvantage in MLS. With any luck, the Galaxy’s success will prod other MLS owners to invest more money in the kind of players whose quality can make the difference.” http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/grant_wahl/11/20/3thoughts.mlscup/index.html#ixzz1eOzJzT8t
To put it in perspective, if we didn’t lose anyone to the draft and the FO kept the 2011 team entirely intact going into 2012 (Keller notwithstanding), would you be ok with that? To me the 2011 team needs tweaking. Others are ok letting it ride.
by Brougham Hooligan on Nov 21, 2011 7:44 PM PST up reply actions
It's a good thing Seattle bought into the idea that spending money on quality players wouldn't help
Otherwise they would have signed players like Ljungberg, Nkufo, Keller, Montero, Fernandez
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Sounder At Heart
Knew you would go there
But then, I seem to always be the de facto Yankees fan. Being a Formic, let me ask it this way. Given the risk of money and the reward of success, do you think the Sounders have erred on the side of risk? FL is the only good risk they have taken, and it unfortunately did not pay off. Nkufo was not too bad of a risk either, but a cheap one. Would it be safe to say that SSFC could risk $1M on a season for one DP player that may pay out big? Are we FL-caused gun-shy? I suspect we will open the wallet in the off-season so it may be a moot point. But as a LAG bud pointed out to me: Beckham+Keane+Donovan=$12.5M=Goal. Montero+?+?= $?=early vacation to Disneyland. While I am not the one spending the $$, my season tix + the $140 per game spent on Clink beer should give me a vote.
by Brougham Hooligan on Nov 21, 2011 8:33 PM PST up reply actions
Why doesn't Fernandez count?
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Fernandez counts as a good risk and is a great example
He is an excellent find by the FO. But he tickles the scale of a true DP. Not too much risk. If Tagoe, Cisse, etc. were true, then we may be trying to get there, which is great. But, we have no deliverable to judge by. Right now, AH is only telling us about the one that got away. In sum, I would like to see the risk meter dialed up a touch more, but not pegged.
I am not sure why everyone always assumes I want an Henry, Marquez, etc. There are a lot of good possibilities out there for lesser $M that may be able to meet the new DP rules on lesser impact to cap.
FYI, 150K gets us an under 20 DP.
by Brougham Hooligan on Nov 21, 2011 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
I would rather win (or lose) without a big-three lineup of EPL jocks.
It’s nice to go to Starfire and shake hands with the team I enjoy supporting. You just can’t be that person, or have that kind of overall feel when a portion of the team is a walking lottery ticket.
Much like how Minor League baseball is more fun to watch. They’re WORKING for the next level and it is both inspiring and rewarding to be a part of.
Sports.
I ran some napkin numbers
After dropping dead weight and giving (slight) deserved raises to our better players we’re left with about 400k of cap space for a keeper and whomever else. I was pretty worried til I saw Adrian’s comment that our CCL and open cup wins gave us enough allocation $ to keep our core. Also I put Rosales in at DP hit.
What I’m saying is that there will be no big signings in the off season. We can’t afford it. Ideally we can hope for a couple of good 150k gems discovered!
so about 150k for one outfield player
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Anyone have a guess on what a Gspurning might cost us?
That is probably the larger element in the equation for next year—how much we spend on a GK.
by Brougham Hooligan on Nov 21, 2011 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
A guy his caliber seems like it'd cost more than the $150k-200k going rate of your average good MLS keeper
I feel like a guy like him could be earning two to three times that in Europe. I know Keller had to take a big paycut to come here, and $300k is no small amount to spend on a keeper.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 21, 2011 10:35 PM PST up reply actions
He never said anything about the Sounders not spending money on quality players
He just said he agrees with Grant Wahl that maybe now there won’t be a stigma of teams with DPs not living up to the hype.
It's a chain of thinking he has
see his post at the same time
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Intersesting to point out.
The Galaxy protected Beckham, Keane, and Donovan.
Donovan, even being out of contract makes sense. As long as he’s not eyeing a return to the EPL after getting LA the cup.
Keane makes sense for another season, maybe two.
Beckham however, being over priced and out of contract, makes no sense to me at all to protect.
Even if Montreal were to take him, they probably wouldn’t pay him anywhere near what he would demand. Not to mention that Beckham would probably sooner play rugby than play anywhere else in MLS.
Add to that the rumors of his departure to France, and I’m stumped as to why the Galaxy didn’t protect someone else on their roster.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 22, 2011 4:04 AM PST reply actions
Trying to show Beckham the love?
Either they think that they are pretty close to re signing Beckham and don’t want anything to mess that up regardless of the risk. Or they want to show Beckham how much they really want him in an effort to convince him to return
Right the only chance to get Beckham to return
Is by showing him exactly how much he means to the team.
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So sure that they take Fucito?
I guess, Montreal will take a Sounders-Defender. There are many good Forwards available (Chaves, Mendoza, Ching, Costly, Bravo) and not too many sefenders. With Riley, Gonzalez, Wahl and Ianni there are some, that Montreal could need. And from the unprotected players, they are surely some of the best defensive players.
http://www.soundersfc.de.to/ First German Fanpage!
Those other forwards are quite expensive
Not just average salaries (see Gonzalez) but big time money. Fucito gives average forward production at basically minimum salary.
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Also I think RSL didn't protect Paulo Jr.
another good cheap young forward.
I feel that there's such a glut of good midfielders and that defenders/forwards are harder to come by
Seems like they’d stock up on those when the opportunity arises.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 22, 2011 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
That's right
But compared to Jaqua, they’re very cheap :D
http://www.soundersfc.de.to/ First German Fanpage!
Should be a response to the comment above...
http://www.soundersfc.de.to/ First German Fanpage!
Ching costs 2.5 times Jaqua
Bravo and Costly even more
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And it's not like Brave or Costly set the world on fire this past season
I’m pretty sure I read that Costly won’t be back in Houston and I’m not surprised.
There's actually a guy in the league named Costly?
There’s a lame vaudeville routine just waiting to happen:
Sigi: Adrian, I want to get a new striker.
Adrian: Who is it?
Sigi: It’s Costly.
Adrian: You let me worry about the money Sigi, just tell me the guy’s name.
… and so on and so forth.
This is making me think that MLS needs it’s own version of Who’s on First.
by CarlosT on Nov 22, 2011 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Or even better
Sigi: Hey Adrian, I’m wondering if you could grab your ass…
Adrian: Pardon me?
Sigi: …owsky.
Adrian: …
Sigi: …
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Nov 22, 2011 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Thinking about Yourassowsky...
made me think of his ridiculous dive when we played them in Toronto.
Which made me think of Beckerman’s embelishment that resulted in a Red card,
Which made me think of RSL,
Which pissed me off.
Jacqua was our Houston pick
hindsight is 20-20 but also not on Houston’s protected list in 2008 was Chris Wondolowski. Golden Boot winner and MLS XI Chris Wondolowski. Ouch.
And then we protected Jaqua and lost Le Toux. MLS XI Le Toux.
Oh hindsight. You are so clear. You f*** us in the ear.
But look at his numbers in Houston
4 goals in 37 appearances. Jaqua had 4 in 14 apps and a history of goalscoring for his past teams. Wondo seemed to just finally wake up when he turned 26/27. His 2010 golden boot year, he was making something like $45k. Total fringe player. I totally get what you’re saying, but the choice at the time probably seemed crystal clear.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 22, 2011 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
We also selected Stephen King
Instead of Marco Papa. Jaqua paid off, but not nearly as good a as Wondolowski. King just didn’t pay off at all, and we could have had a much better player. Oh well.
-Ben R.
I remember King being decent
and he’s been good for DC. I think I’d equate him with Sturgis. Not great, but a good, serviceable player. Certainly though Pappa would’ve been a better pick, hindsight and all.
by chrisperry1983 on Nov 22, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
King never really got a chance for the Sounders
Scored a memorable USOC goal though.
IIRC
There was a fair bit of sentiment that King might get taken by Philly in that expansion draft.
Mostly due to the fact that he was local
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Is it possible...
That Sigi is thinking about playing a 3-4-3 next year? this would allow us to play our 11 best players (we have better mids and forwards than fullbacks) and would explain his unprotected fullbacks and protected CMs
???
Ianni-Parke-Hurtado
Evans-Ozzie-Friberg-Fernadez
Rosales-Montero-Zak
FRIMPONG ought always be written in full caps #DEEEEEEENCH
I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion to draw from our protected list
More likely: our midfielders are better than our fullbacks and even if we lose one fullback, it won’t be an impossible task to replace him.
draft and trade
I think this would all make sense if at the end of the day we are pairing Montero up front with Brian Ching (little and large). Bring home that Gonzaga boy and add some muscle to our lineup.
And a maximum of one loss per current team
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Am I missing something here
but why are we having a “draft” with just one team? Why don’t they just submit the list of players they want by time X and that’s that?
League PR & Drama
Gives the league some off season drama in a way that just submitting a list does not
by Abbott Smith on Nov 23, 2011 6:16 AM PST up reply actions
this is most likely going to be a loose loose situation! I mean they are going to take fucitio than theres a good chance that they snag up montano too for money. Would not suprise me at all
Fucito is not loose!
He’s just very friendly.
The SAH Links Guy
by Dizzo on Nov 23, 2011 6:58 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
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