Seasons Are More Than Trophies
by malcontentjake on Nov 3, 2011 9:00 PM PDT
in Sounders: Analysis
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The L.A. Galaxy are Champions of MLS. I have no qualms or hesitation in saying that; they won the trophy I most coveted this season, and regardless of what happens in this poorly-constructed post-season cup tournament currently under way I find it self-apparent as to why the "true champion" is the Supporters Shield winner in this short-lived balanced-schedule era.
If you are one of the many who subscribe to the "Championship or bust" philosophy, then I suppose that "we aren't champions" pretty much ends the conversation. But actually, from where I sit, this nuance makes all the difference in the world in how you perceive the 2011 Sounders season.
We did win something, of course, namely the U.S. Open Cup, doing so in no small part because we took advantage of what could quite rightfully be called a stupid format for the knockout competition. But at the same time it is also pretty fair to say the MLS Cup format is egregiously stupid, mainly because we are supposed to be sold on the idea that it truly decides League Champion.
And so we will spend a few more days bandying about the tired Seattle sports misery, the tales of juggernaut regular-season teams which failed to live up to expectations come playoff time.
YAWN
I think its about time we stopped playing these naive games, quite frankly. Most of us are soccer fans, and most of us intrinsically understand how and why soccer culture is just "different" from that of the major mainstream T.V.-and spectator sports in the USA/Canada. Attempts to try to force a square peg into a round hole, to forcibly find a way to make soccer "fit in" in America is becoming more and more irritating to me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but do the math: isn't the "different" nature of soccer exactly why it has "taken off" in places like Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver?!
If you want to believe that the 2011 season has been rendered a failure then I am not going to stop you, but I would prefer to remember it for what it was: pretty damn good. We managed 2nd in the League, a clearly superior accomplishment to finishing runner up in either Cup competition, successfully navigated our way through the perplexing and troublesome CCL group stage, and won a 3rd straight domestic cup competition. We won 27 competitive matches, more than any MLS team ever. All this, in and of itself, is enough to define the excellence of this team.
In my worldview, that 2nd place would get us into the group stage for next year's CCL (keeping in mind that in Europe, the domestic cup only guarantees a team a slot in the 2nd tier Europa League, for which a CONCACAF equivalent doesn't exist). Our high finish will in all likelihood bode well for next year's Open Cup (although format changes look to be in store) and we can even claim the Cascadia Cup and dominion over our regional rivals.
But so many soccer fans will willfully ignore this. They will point to two teams in Kansas City and Houston - two teams proven to be clearly inferior from March through October - as having made it farther. One of them will actually get to lift a trophy for winning what amounts to a semifinal match. Its silly and we All Know It, whether or not we want to accept it.
As disappointed as I am that we had another poor outing in our post-season cup tournament, I am actually more disappointed the season is over, and I will have no more Sounders matches to attend until next March.
I, for one, am already counting the days...
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Couldn't have said it better.
My wife was really sad after Wednesday’s game. I reminded her that not only did we win the game with a clean sheet, but we are ranked second in the league and won multiple trophies this year. She said “Oh yeah!” and got a big smile on her face. I consider the “Play Offs” just another tourney, with the Supporters Shield the ultimate goal in MLS. Never have cared for “Play Offs” in other sports either. Maybe that’s why I don’t follow them.
I need to buy a generic countdown clock so I can set it for the first Sounders game in March :)
Academy plays Saturday against San Jose
Sunday against Cal Odessy. Sadly road games you can only follow on their twitter account.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Different trophies mean different comps
This is nothing like other Seattle sports collapses (M’s & Sonics). This year the Sounders were competing in multiple competitions: MLS, Cascadia, Open Cup, CCL, and MLS Cup. I see MLS Cup as separate and distinct from MLS league. By my reckoning we went 2nd, 1st, 1st, TBD and washed out in round one after an entertaining home & away series.
Do I wish we would have beaten RSL? Hell yeah! A failed season? Portland, Vancouver and Toronto supporters would kill for a season like that. It was a great ride, and everyone around me in 122 ended last night saying see you for the CCL knockout round.
Section 120, Row G, Seat 13
by _zorbthegeek on Nov 3, 2011 10:11 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Expectations matter.
Portland and Vancouver didn’t have near the expectations to start the year, or from their play during the year as the sounders did. This season ended in failure, not just because of the loss, but the context: First round…again, blitzed in the first leg, after a season that raised expectations pretty high.
If you think this season was a failure
You weren’t paying attention. This season was leaps and bounds better then last season. We were contenders for the supporters shield right up to the end, we won the USOC, and we made it out of group stages.
Can you really call over 40 games of dominance a failure because of a single poor game? Sure we went out in the first round, but we also won the second game and clearly dominated.
You miss my point...
The only disappointment is MLS Cup. We took Cascadia, are further in CCL than last year (therefore ever), we threepeated in Open Cup and were #2 in Supporter Shield race. That is a smashing year and we should not diminish that. MLS Cup is only one and to me the third most important competition (behind Supporters Shield & CCL).
Section 120, Row G, Seat 13
by _zorbthegeek on Nov 4, 2011 6:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
.
I am actually more disappointed the season is over, and I will have no more Sounders matches to attend until next March.
Even though I am a supporter of the playoffs as a system (after all, my second sport is college basketball), I said something similar in the game wrap-up thread. I think my feeling is that the campaign isn’t over, because we’ve still got CCL to work on.
I met a possum.
Thank you for saying what I've been thinking.
It’s hard for me to stomach all the trash-talking I’ve been hearing in the past few days, from Sounders “fans” and various other teams’ fanbases alike. All season, we faced challenge after challenge and found ways to win. We broke lots of records, we finished second in the league for the season – and anyone should feel pretty good about finishing #2 to LA, which is an incredible team in their own right. We finally won a playoff game. And honestly, people who poo-poo the US Open Cup make me angry. You can’t tell me, oh you haters from other cities, that your teams wouldn’t have liked to capture that cup – otherwise, teams wouldn’t have worked so hard to earn it, putting forth their best players to try to nab it from us. It’s a cup, and we all want to win as many as we can.
Saying we’ve flopped or that we failed is like taking a student with all As and Bs on his report card and saying he’s a failure for not getting a perfect SAT score. I don’t know about you guys, but I’m always one to look at the overall record rather than just focus on one test when I’m determining if someone’s a good student or not…and the Sounders deserve the same respect. ESPECIALLY from their own fan base.
I’m proud to be a Sounders fan, and I can’t wait to see what’s in store for next season.
I like the MLS Playoffs.
Us not winning the MLS Cup doesn’t take away from the season at all. A 2 seed lost to a 3 seed. It’s not an embarrassing choke.
They were a great team to follow and root for. I’m proud of how they played on the return leg. It sucks that they s*** the bed at the most important game of the year. But that’s what happened.
But we don’t define the team’s success strictly by it’s hardware. Even if they had won no hardware, the Sounders were relevant all year. It was fun to be a Sounder fan this year. The Sounders delivered some fantastic moments. They play exciting soccer. And they deliver a quality product both live and on TV/Radio.
There are great blogs that cover the team and a great community of supporters and fans.
They are a well run, classy outfit. Short some silver bra straps there is basically nothing I don’t like about this team.
Not winning the MLS Cup doesn’t change any of that.
by Jack Brando on Nov 4, 2011 1:06 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
i agree with you - but...
for me, it’s the way we played (or didn’t play) and lost the match at RSL that makes this such a bitter pill. It was perhaps one of the poorest Sounder performances ever and it felt utterly inexplicable. I’m glad they came back strong in the home match, but it still doesn’t erase the mystery of how we played in the first leg.
That said, I too cannot wait for March — 4+ months without SSFC sucks!! At least the off-season will have intriguing moments as we see how the 2012 squad rounds into shape.
Life's what happens while you're making other plans
So sick of people whining about playoffs...
If you don’t like them, DON’T WATCH THEM. It’s really that simple. Your season ended in October and you can pretend that playoffs don’t exist. End of story.
For the rest of us that enjoy a conference (usually), flawed but still fun to watch tournament at the end of the season, we will do so. By far, the most exciting game was this last against RSL at home. If you don’t like the intensity of that, you’re probably better off avoiding the playoffs. Let someone that actually enjoys things like “fun” and “excitement” have your seats.
I'll say it again
I am not anti-playoffs. I actually think a well-constructed playoff system would greatly enhance the season. But I find it readily apparent that the MLS playoff strutcure is just atrocious.
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Nov 4, 2011 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
That was the least enjoyable game for me this season, by far
Everything about that game was futile until and unless we scored a third goal, and that never happened. There was nothing “fun” or “exciting” about it. I still went because I wanted to be there in the extremely unlikely event they were able to advance, but the game had nothing to recommend it.
I am anti-playoffs, they undermine the season, and at best they can ratify what the season produced, and otherwise they make a mockery of it.
My outlook on the game
Going into the game, I knew it would be unlikely for the Sounders to advance, but I wanted to see them play good soccer. Frankly, that’s always what I want to see more than anything else: I want to see the Sounders play good soccer. They scored two goals and RSL scored none, with really just one good chance all night. They had a handful opportunities to tie it up. They showed me more than I thought they had in them, because I figured when Flaco and Evans went off, they were destined to remain scoreless.
Off the top of my head, the losses to LA, Houston, and Dallas at home this year were less enjoyable games for me.
Totally agree and
have always said it. What a team does during the season has always counted for way more to me. Yes, it’s great to win in the play-offs (because, heck, don’t we pretty much want to win everything?!?), but given choices, I’d take stellar play throughout the season. One and done lay-offs are (aside from the NBA) mostly one-off affairs that pretty much decide nothing but who the better team was that day or week. Teams will always ebb and flow, particularly in MLS where there is so much parity.
Thank you thesafetylemur….. life must be great living one day at a time…..
Agree, but I'll go a step further.
It wasn’t true in 2009 or 2010, but I think somewhere in the past year league play has taken a significant upswing. I go to the matches and don’t cringe at chaotic, long-ball hopefulness, but instead can settle in for 90 minutes or relatively skilled, technical ball movement. I still think the league needs to pay attention to (and solve) two remaining problems: dangerous play and refereeing, but overall the quality of play is what will keep me coming back. I love the Sounders and what the FO and players have done; but I love the game more, and the MLS finally seems to have reached a tipping point.
Really? Wow.
Many of those MLS fans who make light of the Sounders likely envy your success. I wouldn’t accept their crap: let the results, the trophies, the won/loss records of the Sounders speak for themselves. In this regard, I view this post as a bit of sour grapes—or perhaps the comments of a fan whose team has not experienced hard times in recent years. Don’t stoop to their level by disparaging their successes.
The MLS will always be an amalgam of World Sport and North American Sports. World Sport celebrates the beauty of top-flight sustained excellence, while North American Sports are infused with stories of redemption and perseverance. Like World Sport, there are many trophies, like North American Sports, there is a post-season. I believe the MLS should aspire to glean the best from both systems to create something soulful and meaningful for everyone involved.
I say this from the perspective of a fan who would have nothing to watch on July 10th were it not for the post season. SportingKC was well out of the Supporter’s Shield race and had just suffered an embarrassing loss in the US Open Cup. Still, there was a palpable excitement among the fanbase because a playoff spot wasn’t inconceivable. The ride since then has been the single greatest experience I’ve had as a sports fan. The post-season provides that most North American of things: one last chance at success. Does it mean the MLS Cup winner is the best team? No, but that’s why there are multiple trophies. If it leads to debates then so be it: as a college football fan I think the endless debates of an imperfect system to determine a champion are fine. The more people talk about the game the better.
Final note: I would have loved to have seen KC play Seattle in Carson one more time this season. It was my dream matchup almost from the moment the final whistle sounded in the Sounders game last August at Livestrong Sporting Park. Both games were epic in the regular season. I only ask that if Sporting pulls off this miracle ride that you accept that the trophy has meaning. I know a Cup would have meant a lot to you as well.
All the best to you in the offseason, and we’ll see you again next year. Fucito is the devil.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
by J.Schnauzer on Nov 4, 2011 7:45 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
about SKC
I give them much credit for essentially doing what the Sounders did last year. However, it must be said that as a 5th seed their progression ought to have gone through Dallas and L.A. instead of Colorado and Houston. As a fan of a Western conference team which has seen my team get drawn into the demonstrably tougher half of the draw for each of the three years we have been around, I hope you can begin to understand my frustration. This is actually my second biggest gripe about the playoffs, the first being the number of teams invited into the tournament (seriously, 10?! Seems like 6 is the right number to me).
I don’t mean any particular disrespect to SKC or Houston, although I can certainly understand how it comes off that way; just know I’d be saying something similar about any matchup of 2 lower-seeded teams in the Eastern bracket final
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Nov 4, 2011 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
No disrespect taken. The playoffs are imperfect and it’s fortunate to be in the Eastern side of the bracket this year.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
This is a fair statement
But I think equally as fair as “The corrupt USOC bid process ensures that Seattle gets home field advantage throughout the tournament, ensuring them a considerable advantage.”
Bah
You want our Cup? Come and take it from us. We went to DC in 2009 and took their cup at RFK. As it should be.
by Jack Brando on Nov 4, 2011 11:00 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
and I made the specific point in my article of mentioning that the USOC format is stupid
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Nov 4, 2011 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Any Golfer
If a golfer wins the Masters and finishes 2nd at the US Open, it wouldn’t matter where they finish in the fedex cup.
Playoff haters be damned!!!
So, let me get this straight: After the Sounders lost to the Union on Oct. 8, clinching the SS for the Gals, who didn’t even take the pitch that week, call it a season? Yay, we’re #2?
That is patently ridiculous. I get that you like European soccer, where 4 teams are good and the rest are fighting to stay up, but this ain’t Europe. You play the regular season for the right to play for the cup. Period. End of sentence.
If you can’t go play a match that you have had on the schedule for months now and bring your absolute best, you are not the champion. That’s the truth. If you can string together wins against teams playing in different tournaments, with different lineups, dealing with different injuries, then fine. Take the SS and go polish it. It is not the Championship. It is “we won the most regular season games this year.” There is no star. There is no medal. There is a big, stupid Pontiac logo.
The playoff system is definitely broken when a #2 plays a #3 first out. I get that. But had we secured 4 more points (maybe not lost to those same Gals and tied another close one) then we would have played the Energy Drinks instead of RSL.
The winners of the MLS Cup are the champions of MLS. They get a Cup, medals, and a star (in a year). That’s MLS. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other leagues.
Couldn't agree more.
You can’t have regular season record and a playoff system, with both of them having credibility. Ignoring the fact that a (current format could use some work) playoff system is inherently better and more entertaining than using regular season alone to determine a champion, the bigger issue is that the playoffs neuter any legitimacy the SS chase could have. It’s irrelevant…except that MLS is beholden to silly Euro traditions and has tacked on a empty trophy to placate the Euro snobs.
It has nothing to do with Eurosnobbery.
Just stop it. Either argue the actual point or don’t, but stop insinuating negative character traits in people that disagree with you.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
The Supporters' Shield is an empty, tacked on trophy.
It’s a title in name only, the playoff system reduces it to an after thought. MLS’s motivation to do both, knowing that a playoff system would severely diminish any value the regular season has makes their motivations seem either ridiculous or suspect.
Well, MLS didn't come up with it.
Supporters did. MLS chose to officially acknowledge the winner after the trophy already existed.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
The playoffs
dminish its importance for some. For others it is the opposite. Over time one may become less and less important. I think that is slowly happening and not in the way you imply.
God.
The winners of the MLS Cup are the champions of MLS. They get a Cup, medals, and a star (in a year). That’s MLS. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other leagues.
Yes that’s a lot better than asking it to be changed for the better.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
WRONG.
A star is supposed to be used only for Continental and World Champions. All the MLS teams with stars on their jerseys are clueless posers.
WHY DO PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THINGS LIKE THIS AAAHHH
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Because I am frustrated as all hell that these are the kinds of coversations we're having as American soccer fans
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
If "American" soccer fans knew what they were talking about
then it wouldn’t need to be discussed.
To answer your question, people care about the star on the jersey because it signifies winning more than just your own league, and it’s something that remains on the jersey forever.
This is just beyond arrogant.
There are two extremist attitudes amongst soccer fans in this country that are awful and prevent the rest of us from having interesting and worthwhile conversations.
This is one of them.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Get off your high horse
The star is a World Wide tradition that MLS ignores. You have said nothing to justify your position.
Your extremist attitude is to name call and type with BIG LETTERS when people don’t aqgree with you.
Like the way you capitalized "WRONG" in the post upthread?
Which was a reply to me quoting someone, and has nothing to do with this post at all?
As for that worldwide tradition:
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
WRONG was wrong
Shoulda been posted to the person you cut.
But since we’re on the subject, the image above is not what I’m talking about. Stars in a team logo is completely different than stars above the logo.
Well that seems like an arbitrary line to draw but okay.
Did you click the link below? Because if you did, you would see that plenty of teams around the world have a star above their crest for each title they win.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I saw the link.
Not that you necessarily care, but the reason I’m irritated about this is I think winning an MLS Cup doesn’t warrant a star.
While you can find examples of clubs putting stars up for various reasons, a significant number of relevant clubs follow the concept I mentioned.
The link below is obviously incomplete and I couldn’t find a better one. But no Spanish clubs are listed, Man U follows this, as does Villa, and Chelsea who have won EPL titles haven’t added the star because they’re waiting for the CL trophy.
So?
They can do things how they like. MLS doing them differently does not make them “clueless posers.”
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
So...
It’s my opinion.
When I see a team like Man U, who have won 19 EPL titles and only put up CL stars, or a Juventus who put up one star for winning 10 titles, I think it makes MLS clubs that win one league title back when the league had 13 teams look like posers. The only way I want a star added to the Sounders jersey is if we win CONCACAF.
You don’t have to agree with me.
You know when I'll care what La Liga and EPL teams do?
When we face them in the CWC
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
No, because that would mean that you care what they do
more than you care what your domestic league does.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
What? No it would not.
My loyalty to the Sounders has nothing to do with MLS.
In order to be the best you have to beat the best, and the best teams aren’t in MLS. Adding something to your jersey to mark a significant achievement should truly be significant. Being in the top 10 of an 18 team league and winning four games is not on the same level.
I would take a CONCACAF title over an MLS Cup, and a CWC over straight MLS Cups.
So would I
but the MLS tradition, over a decade old, is to get a star for the MLS Cup.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I don't mean to sound like a nag, but..
MLS is a work in progress and changes things every year. A decade of doing the wrong thing shouldn’t make it ok.
Why is it wrong for MLS?
There are dozens of leagues in the world that do it this way.
So far your example of wrong is “Not La Liga/EPL”
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
It's wrong for MLS because the Cup isn't significant enough
At this point any team in the top half of the league can get hot for four games, and for the rest of all time they get to have a permanent ymbol of that victory on their jerseys. It doesn’t make sense.
Dozens of leagues don’t do it this way. Is there a league that has our playoff format?
Here is an example. Brazil has won five World Cups, and has five stars. I’m fairly confident that they’ve won the Confederations, and Conmebol a few times. But they don’t put a star on the jersey for those tourneys because they are less important.
oh come on
The league made a decision. If that’s the one you want to hang on, good luck with that.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 4, 2011 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The league makes bad decisions all the time
and occassionally fixes them. Remember when the clock counted down?
So if MLS Cup gets a star, why not Open Cup? More games, more teams included.
In Canada the winner can wear a star during the next tourney
but not in MLS play, because the MLS star is for MLS play.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
This is new to me
I have never heard it referred to as an “MLS star”. If an MLS team wins the CCL would a star be forbidden? And if Canadian teams are part of MLS why do they get a free pass?
they don't get a free pass
they get to wear the star in NCC competition only. Because it is NOT authorized by MLS for use in League play.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Canadian Soccer News during 2010 NCC
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Yes
All over Latin America
And let’s remember Brazil’s federation is so stupid it puts 5 stars on its WOMEN’S UNIFORMS
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Really?
In Latin America they have a 10 team playoff where 1 plays 10 and 2 plays 3? And the champion is crowned after an unbalanced four games?
Agreed, the Brazilian women thing makes no sense.
We can go back and forth all day. I’m trying to argue, I just happen to think that the star is pretty kick ass and puts a stamp on a legendary season. If any random team in any given year can get hot for four games, it shouldn’t go down in history just because a person working for MLS decided it should be that way. I have said my piece, do what you want with it.
Why are you comparing national teams
To league teams when we are taking the whole conversation back to the MLS?
Mexican teams put stars for winning their league and they have a playoff. In fact their playoffs are very similar to ours were last year.
Serie A teams put stars for league wins, so does Eredivisie and the Swiss league.
The Sounders are not a National team so why compare them as the same thing.
I was trying to come up with a neutral, non-Euro example
Serie A puts a star on their jersey for winning the league ten times.
MLS puts it on after a four game hot streak.
Do you see these as equal?
Not the same system
Juventus added the star when they won their 10th title in 1958.
The problem with the MLS system is that it will eventually need to be changed. At some point there is going to be a team with 20+ titles, and having 20 stars on top of the crest would be quite ridiculous.
MLS is actually one of the few leagues that has a system for this. In most other leagues clubs decide on their own about the stars. The Bundesliga is one of the few others that have a system.
In Mexico indeed many clubs have added on star for each Mexican title. The difference is that instead of putting the stars above the crest, the stars are made part of the crest design, which makes it work a little better. Also, nobody has more than 11 stars. Yet. In Mexico many clubs have also added stars for championships in other competitions, such as the Mexican Cup and CONCACAF competitions.
Do the smallest amount of research possible and pretend for a moment that you don't know everything
A simple Google search which leads to a wikipedia article shows that teams wear stars on their crest for all sorts of reasons. Of all the things in the world to be sanctimonious about, this seems like a poor choice.
by ubelmann on Nov 4, 2011 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I learned something today
I thought the same concept for national teams applied to clubs.
by NateFrom120 on Nov 4, 2011 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say argue for change
In fact:
“The playoff system is definitely broken when a #2 plays a #3 first out. I get that. But had we secured 4 more points (maybe not lost to those same Gals and tied another close one) then we would have played the Energy Drinks instead of RSL.”
Now please counter my actual argument that competitive football ending on 8 October would have sucked.
Why would I do that?
I don’t have a problem with playoffs. I have a problem with the MLS playoffs, because the system is awful. And while I don’t pretend to speak for Jake, I think he’s said on numerous occasions that his issue is not with playoffs per se but instead with the MLS playoff system.
One of the things I really like about MLS is that it formally recognizes the best team over the course of the regular season. The MLS Cup winner is the official champion, but there is a tangible benefit to having a great regular season. It’s something I wish more American sports did. And given how broken the MLS playoff system is, I agree with Jake that until it’s fixed it’s completely reasonable to see the SS winner as a more legitimate champion.
My issue with you statement (and many of the statements made by people who don’t like the idea of the Supporters Shield) is the way the argument is framed; the greater importance I place on the Shield is not an issue of my being a Europhile, it’s an issue of MLS having an awful, awful playoff system.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's a reason you hear the euro-phile complaint
I think it’s directly related to many defending the legitimacy of the SS by saying “It’s good enough for the EPL…” or something similar.
Well those people are dumb.
That doesn’t make the complaint any more valid unless you are responding directly to one of those people.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
very few people who frequent this site want to get rid of playoffs
But they would like to see them fixed
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 4, 2011 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
So, let me get this straight: After the Sounders lost to the Union on Oct. 8, clinching the SS for the Gals, who didn’t even take the pitch that week, call it a season? Yay, we’re #2?
Yup.
The playoff system is definitely broken when a #2 plays a #3 first out. I get that. But had we secured 4 more points (maybe not lost to those same Gals and tied another close one) then we would have played the Energy Drinks instead of RSL.
The winners of the MLS Cup are the champions of MLS. They get a Cup, medals, and a star (in a year). That’s MLS. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other leagues.
And if there were no Sounders in MLS, I would have zero interest in it. That’s the way it was before they joined and that’s how it is when they’re not involved. And a lot of other leagues feature much better players as well. The “if you don’t like it, leave it” argument is a pretty dangerous one for MLS to make. A lot of soccer fans in this country are already taking door # 2.
34 games guaranteed vs maybe 4 games: which do you think is more likely to be affected by random chance, errors, and other noise?
36000 say otherwise
“The "if you don’t like it, leave it" argument is a pretty dangerous one for MLS to make. A lot of soccer fans in this country are already taking door # 2.”
Don’t let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. We’ll try our hardest to fill your seat.
“34 games guaranteed vs maybe 4 games: which do you think is more likely to be affected by random chance, errors, and other noise?”
Excuses. Losers do the “yeah, but” game. If you want to turn off your set after the SS is decided, don’t let me stop you. If you want to watch four EPL teams compete with the millions of dollars they spend, be my guest. MLS doesn’t need you and neither does SSFC.
by 509er on Nov 4, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
carlos being the exception
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 4, 2011 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder when it is FINALLY going to sink in that I do not hate playoffs
I hate the MLS playoffs, I hate the format and arbitrary nature of seeding teams, and the amount of teams. How many freaking’ times do I have to say that my opinion on playoffs for MLS is do it right or don’t do it at all…
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Nov 4, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
L.A. are the Champions
I completely agree, the League is what matters. Fingers crossed that the Garberator doesn’t mess with the balanced schedule.
Sounders have improved every year. Let’s hope that trend continues.
Except the MLS has playoffs.
So you could call them “champs of the regular season” , but it sounds ridiculous and silly. Which, it is.
Howsabout this; let people decide what they think is important and wish to celebrate/place emphasis on.
Why is that so hard for people to do?
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
not to ruin it...
but there’s not going to be a balanced schedule next year. I’ve been reporting on this for a couple months now.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 4, 2011 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Never say die.
I have heard all the rumors. The question is, do you want a balanced table?
If it hasn't been officially announced then it's a rumor.
Even if they have made an internal decision, they have plenty of time to change their mind before they release the schedule.
Check your invoice
it isn’t a rumor. the invoice is a defacto announcement
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
It's not finalized
But it’s no rumor either. Sure it could change. But to act like it’s not heading straight in that direction is simply to be in denial.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 4, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting. So if something doesn't look like it's going our way you just give up?
Good thing our Sounders didn’t think that way, otherwise it could have ended 6-0 on aggregate.
not what i said at all
I’m taking issue with your insistence on calling it a rumor, not saying we shouldn’t want it to be changed.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 5, 2011 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
I am insisting there's a chance to change it. You are insisting it's happening
Until now I couldn’t tell if you wanted a balanced table or not. Since you do, why not fight for it? I’m just opinionated jack ass, but you have an audience. You have contact with your fellow MLS writers. Start a twitter movement, or a fan vote. Don’t just roll over and take it.
I think you overstate my audience
I’ve actually been pushing for a balanced schedule, but I’m not about to let that single issue define me.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 5, 2011 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
You understate yourself
You guys always have polls up, if all MLS SB Nation writers did the same thing, something could spread. Then it could spread through FB. Keep it simple. Every team plays each other once, home and away. MLS can market however they want.
It’s not about defining you man, it’s about making sure something lame doesn’t happen to the league. If fans didn’t have a voice then this site could have ended up being called FC Seattle at Heart.
You may have to trust me on this one...
The league is well aware that a certain vocal segment of the fanbase really wants a balanced schedule. What they aren’t convinced of is satisfying that group outweighs the cost savings and their belief that more rivalry games=increased gates. I’ve expressed my support for a balanced schedule numerous times. I don’t get the sense it changes much. I plan to keep banging the drum, and I hope something changes, but I’m not holding my breath.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Nov 5, 2011 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Sounds good man
I’m in if you want to picket out front of MLS headquarters.
My thoughts
You probably don’t care, but you do have comment section:
IF you play ( and believe too ) the everyone is a winner, we did finish the reg season in second and took the US Open Cup line………………….then when we do win the MLS Cup, it isn’t as great.
I was VERY bummed out, we couldn’t get it done when it counted, because unfortunately for you and other SS lovers, the SS will be irrelevant soon, maybe even next year.
When did it count exactly?
I really can’t stand the “when it counted” line. I like MLS Cup because I think it’s a fun little tournament. Sure, the format is wacky and fairness was not the main priority of the organizers, but we get to see more games played by top MLS teams. I like that.
Further, I think it’s a big oversimplification to say that we just had one bad game last Saturday and that’s why we didn’t advance. Had we beaten LA in the season opener, we very well could have won the Supporters Shield. Had we done that, we would have been in line to play a NYRB side which is a lot less deep than RSL, was a lot worse during the season, and had to come into the first game against us on short rest.
I know it’s not as simple as saying that all games count equally, but at the same time you can’t say that the MLS Cup playoff games are the only games that count because there are a number of regular season games we could have done better in which would have improved our chances in the MLS Cup tournament. On the flip side, we could have done even worse in the regular season and put ourselves in an even worse position. Had we finished with, say, NYRB’s record, we would have had to weather a play-in game and then face LAG in the opening round.
some year
we’re not going to be as good as this year and we’re still going to win Cascadia or Open Cup or something and be pretty pleased about it.
Multiple competitions is great. By the quarters (except for NYRB) every team in the USOC was playing it’s tail off. And we won. That counts. For something.
Same with getting through CCL stages.
And I would bet a pinky if PDX has won the Cascadia Cup this year, they wouldn’t be lamenting their playoff miss and saying how they only won something that doesn’t count as much.
I don't give a damn about the Cascadia cup.
This “everybody gets a juice box” attitude in regard to viewing what success looks like just waters down what real accomplishments look like.
are you honest about this?
Do you insist that the Mariners & Seahawks take down their division banners? You do realize the NFL awards more trophies than MLS
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
by Dave Clark on Nov 4, 2011 3:24 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
more teams will NOT win something this year than will
also, I fail to see how winning a national tournament isn’t a real accomplishment. And honestly how winning Cascadia isn’t either. Maybe I just have too much pride in my city.
Please try to keep these arguments constrained to debatable points.
There’s no need to engage in personal attacks.
by Aaron Campeau on Nov 4, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
sorry, let me clarify...
…don’t mean anything personal by my pride in city comment – only to say that makes the Cascadia Cup matter. If anyone puts their home Cascadia match tickets up for sale, I think they’ll quickly find people care. And the teams care. I am sure the Timbers would much rather parade around Jeld-Wen with the Cascadia Cup than sawed-off pieces of a tree.
The worst thing about losing the way we did to RSL like we did
Is that now I have to root for LA to destroy them, and I really don’t like LA…
I admit, I'm disappointed - but lets get rid of the negativity.
No one will ever be able to tell me this season was a failure as long as footage of this exists.
I still get chills watching that.
(Arbitrary Disagreement)
((Bad summary of point from your post I disagree with))
((Equally bad response to the strawman I just set up))
((Snobbery of either the North-American-Sports-Fan variety OR European-Sport-Fan variety))
((Hatred towards MLS despite posting on an MLS blog))
((Bitterness towards everything))
by Orothar on Nov 4, 2011 4:39 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'd copy this and repost
but it’s a long offseason.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Quibble about Point Four
This is Sounder at Heart, not MLS Fan at Heart, so it’s a Sounders blog first. There’s no requirement for someone who’s a Sounders fan to be an MLS fan as well. MLS is obviously relevant to the Sounders, so it makes sense to cover it, but I care much more about the Sounders than I do MLS. When the Sounders were in USL, I paid attention to USL and ignored MLS. Now that they’re in MLS, I pay attention to MLS and ignore USL.
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