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"The Seattle Sounders have seemingly great fans, but it's not really genuine,'' he said. "It's fans pretending to be European soccer fans. It's almost like a costume party, with folks wearing scarves and whatnot. Who wears scarves? For crossover fans -- guys who are fans of both the Sounders and the Seahawks -- would you ever in a million years see one of those scarf-wearing Sounders fans wear a scarf to a football game? Or sing songs? It's all kind of phony.''

Jim Caple Doesn't Want TinTin To Be Popular

Cites arrogant euro-snob who now thinks EPL is too popular as evidence of what happens when indie cred is lost.

Also, Seahawks sell scarves and fans wear them.
Also, Also, people sing at college sports events all the time. It isn't exclusive to soccer can everyone stop pretending it is.
Also, also, also Sweet Caroline.
Also, also, also, also being an exclusivist a-hole doesn't make you better. It just makes you an exclusivist a-hole.

5 months ago Tiny_dave_with_scarf_tiny Dave Clark 78 comments 0 recs  | 

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I didn't know that the hipster movement existed in sports

But hey, here it is, rearing its ugly head whilst looking for the next little thing to follow. Maybe these guys’ll start following cricket next!

I met a possum.

by s0merand0mdude on Dec 21, 2011 8:42 PM PST reply actions  

Harkes quote

Had to laugh. How Harkes ever got a job where the first requirement is familiarity with the English language is beyond me. I suppose it’s kicking him while he’s down, but that rhetorical brain fart he laid deserves to be mocked far and wide. Caple isn’t quite at Harkes level, but he’s getting there.

by jamesington on Dec 22, 2011 12:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Might not be Harkes

Just says his “friend Ian”. Could be an entirely different Ian.

I met a possum.

by s0merand0mdude on Dec 22, 2011 12:51 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I got free tickets to a Seahawks game this year.

I wore all of my sounders gear because it was the right color.

I am a season ticket holder for Huskies football too, I remember quite a few chants at the Holiday bowl last year. American Football fans would probably chant and sing more if they could hold their alcohol.

Sounders 'til I die

by SounderJunkie on Dec 22, 2011 1:27 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd for "American Football fans would probably chant and sing more if they could hold their alcohol.

A good friend of mine, when he started converting, asked me straight up, “So, is it like the Seahawks games, where a major portion of the crowd gets vomitingly and belligerently drunk? If so, I’m not that interested in going” (and keep in mind, this is a guy who likes to drink). Even the ECS guys who sing about getting drunk, after having gotten a few at Fuel, are pretty much coherent most of the time and not exactly violent… nothing like some of the stuff I remember seeing regularly at Husky football games. There’s a lot to be said for not flirting with alcohol poisoning at sporting events.

You do all the work for us, Honey Badger, and we'll just eat whatever you find.

by mistuhp on Dec 22, 2011 3:27 AM PST up reply actions  

That's what I love about sitting in GA

is you’re int he middle of the party, but 99% of the people in there are still fully functional. There’s the few scattered that are falling over, but on the whole it’s night and day different than a Seahawks game. Not that I don’t love going to Seahawks games…but I could definitely do without the blackout drunks all over the place.

by chrisperry1983 on Dec 22, 2011 8:45 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Helps that it's only two hours from kickoff to the final whistle.

3.5 hours though, people tend to get trashed just to keep the buzz through most of the game.

Also helps that there are lots of games to go to for the Sounders, vs. probably no more than 12 for the Seahawks and 7 for the Huskies.

by SoundersForever on Dec 22, 2011 9:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Believe it or not

But the ECS elders actually encourage everybody to not drink too much before and during matches, because being too drunk impairs your ability to support. This is somewhat contradictory with the encouragement to meet at the Bar (not mentioning the name as I don’t know if it is kosher here) several hours before kick-off. However, many who do drink in moderation and have water between beers.

Not everybody listens though. However, being wasted drunk in the GA is definitely frowned upon by the ECS.

by AAAA on Dec 23, 2011 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

"we came to drink..."

“Full of beers…”

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 26, 2011 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

To play Devil's Advocate

The Seahawks play in the fall.

I’ll rock a scarf as much as the next guy but I do feel like a poser wearing a scarf in July.

We are a summer league. Co-opting winter wear from countries that play soccer in the winter makes little sense.

by Jack Brando on Dec 22, 2011 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I think there were 6 weeks I didn't wear my scarf this year

But this isn’t a summer league, as there are more months NOT in summer than in it.

March, April, May, Sept, Oct, Nov all need scarves at night in Seattle

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 22, 2011 10:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

Went to some cold games this year, scarf was clutch.

Recessionproof since 2009.

by 253Sounder on Dec 22, 2011 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

This may sound silly, but...

I get a little sweaty in the summer. The scarf then functions perfectly as a towel for me.

You do all the work for us, Honey Badger, and we'll just eat whatever you find.

by mistuhp on Dec 22, 2011 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Silk scarfs are popular in many warm-weather countries

Such as Italy, although last time I saw a match there was in earlier this month and I was freezing my ass off.

by AAAA on Dec 23, 2011 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I bet you didn't even know

Jim Caple was a character from an obscure Japanese comic from the 60’s. Jesus Clark, get with it.

by B Money on Dec 21, 2011 9:01 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

Sounds like a good teaching moment for Caple

Dave you need to invite him to a game to continue your education of the masses.

Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!

by chrisso on Dec 21, 2011 9:25 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Christ, what an ass.

Although I must say I’ve never heard a writer more accurately sum up the problem with Portland fans. He just accidentally ascribed it to us.

When asked about the difference between being a Sounders fan and a Portland fan I’ve generally described it thusly: “Sounders supporters love the team because they are fans of a soccer team. Portland supporters are fans of being fans of a team.”

When portland debuted a mediocre team, there wasn’t a peep from the fanbase in town. By contrast, when the team released a mediocre crest, people lost it. There’s an image of their team and themselves as fans that they studiously maintain, and it’s the most important thing, far more important than the actual team or the game.

It’s not as much about their team as it is about the scene that the team represents. And they will defend their scene to the death. The actual game and the team on the field is sort of secondary to them, to the point that they sort of disregard stuff like a bad team (“SWIWS”). I lived in portland for four years and had a lot of time to see this in person and think about it.

In Seattle we’re actually about the game. We care about the players that play for us. We threw a damn party for a bench player when he got taken in the expansion draft for chrissakes.

Caple is right, there are certain soccer fans who will see the increasing popularity of the sport and success of the league as a threat to their carefully cultivated image and culture. They live about 170 miles south of the greatest city in the world.

And for the record, I wear my scarf to seahawks games.

by moyerLIVES on Dec 21, 2011 9:32 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Wow...

…just wow. The article and quote were stupid and not true. If he would have said it about the Timbers I’d be just as pissed. But as bad as the quote in Caple’s article was, this is even worse. You can’t get mad at something someone says and then turn around and do it yourself. Pot, let me introduce you to kettle, I think you might have something in common.

by ledjom on Dec 22, 2011 8:49 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I'm saying that there IS an observable element of truth in the article.

I don’t think he’s an ass because he’s wrong, I think he’s an ass because he likely posted this article to generate hits by annoying a large and vocal fanbase. In that respect maybe the article was stupid. I was mad that he (through is friend) ascribed these traits to the Sounders, a group of people I’ve never really seen exhibit the sort of anxiety over the team that he feels about his comics.

Like I said, I lived in Portland for a while. I hung out with a lot of soccer fans there. The protective, “in crowd” feelings that Caple is alluding to in this piece form an important element of the fan experience for the timbers fans that I was friends with. This is by their own admission, by the way.

To the extent that this article is interpreted as an indictment of the fan experience of US soccer fans in general, it is wrong. It did describe a particular segment of fans well.

I guess I used a lot of words to basically say: “Caple would love the TA.” It’s part of the reason that living in Portland for as long as I did made me appreciate the Sounders even more.

by moyerLIVES on Dec 22, 2011 10:20 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

That element of truth exists for every club with supporters groups

whether it’s the TA, ECS, Sons of Ben, the Fort, etc. Your characterization of Timbers fans is as off base as when Timbers fans call Sounders fans customers. It’s stupid, we are fans of teams that are rivals and it’s fun to tweak our friends and family that support the other club. But come on, the "our fans are better than your fans" crap is lame. Your team is better than my team and I hope that changes very soon. Assigning a motive of fandom to a specific subset of fans while trying to claim that same motive doesn’t exist to some degree in your own fan base is simply not true.

by ledjom on Dec 22, 2011 11:00 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I feel like I was pretty clear that everything I wrote was supported by my own experiences.

I have conducted no exhaustive survey of fan attitudes. I lived in Portland for a several years. I packed into bars with TA to watch USMNT games. I played with and against timbers fans of all stripes in local mens leagues. I went to school and out drinking with friends who had been timbers supporters anywhere from 10 months to 10 years.

In my own, personal experience this is the main difference that I’ve been able to observe between fans of the two clubs. I’m sure that a similar element exists for the Sounders. I have not experienced it as being as integral to the fan experience for a similarly large percentage of Sounders fans.

I understand it’s frustrating for me to back up the post with nothing but my own experience, because it makes the entire thing essentially irrebuttable by anything other than “I disagree,” which I’m open to. It’s possible that in all that time I was only exposed to very particular type of timbers (or maybe Sounders) fan.

by moyerLIVES on Dec 22, 2011 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Fair enough

I guess my point is, we aren’t all like that. Cheers!

by ledjom on Dec 22, 2011 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

From Washington.

He actually is a good writer, but this was an ugly slip.

by seattle_since_81 on Dec 21, 2011 10:10 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

No, he's not

He is a juvenile d-bag.

I miss *REAL* Four Loko

by B-Lot tailgater on Dec 23, 2011 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll admit

Jim Caple has written a handful of articles where I said “so glad there’s great writing being produced at ESPN.” this is not one of those.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.

by Jeremiah Oshan on Dec 22, 2011 8:40 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Baseball's out of season so....

I’m going to poke soccer fans, meehhhhh

by Thalas on Dec 22, 2011 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Irrelevant

The thing that isn’t genuine is ESPN coverage of soccer.

by Abbott Smith on Dec 21, 2011 9:37 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

I hate the fact that they actually are the best non-league source of news on MLS

Other than SBNation.com, of course, which blows it right out of the fucking water.

I met a possum.

by s0merand0mdude on Dec 21, 2011 10:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Really?

Don’t you think there are about 30 blogs out there that are way better sources of news, from our own Joshua Mayers to Goff in D.C. to Galarcep’s blog, etc, etc?

by Nevtelen on Dec 22, 2011 8:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, I'm kind of referring to national mainstream coverage...

Blogs are great, that’s why I’m here, but you get attention when ESPN is talking about you.

I met a possum.

by s0merand0mdude on Dec 22, 2011 8:23 AM PST up reply actions  

The usual euro snob

Just because our league hasn’t been around for 100+ years and we celebrate it different doesn’t make it fake. Caple was an idiot to cite this jackass but this is nothing new. Haters gonna hate. I mean the euro snob doesn’t even watch the games just checks scores and then talks smack about a growing local league. Who’s the fake one here?

by Colin Johnson on Dec 21, 2011 9:57 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

Yes, which is why the FanShot reads
Jim Caple Doesn’t Want TinTin To Be Popular
Cites arrogant euro-snob

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 22, 2011 7:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Might as well have been his

Since he’s using it and drawing comparisons and obviously agrees with it to some extent or he wouldn’t have used it.

by Thalas on Dec 22, 2011 10:07 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think this is worth taking offense to

We got mentioned in an article by someone who would normally ignore soccer. Not LA. Take it as a compliment, brush it off, and concern yourself with your sport and let him worry about his.

by PeterJH on Dec 22, 2011 12:10 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

To be fair, as pointed out above, Caple was quoting someone else.

But that someone else is incredibly ignorant and a bit of an ass.

by quacker27 on Dec 22, 2011 1:13 AM PST reply actions  

It was also pointed out in the fanshot

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 22, 2011 7:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, sorry.

I think I misunderstood “cites” as referring to Caple.

by quacker27 on Dec 23, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

He's trying to make his point by quoting someone else.

I think that’s a pretty weak way to try making a point without him saying it himself.

by SoundersForever on Dec 22, 2011 9:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Sweet Caroline is lots of fun at Fenway

but you could also just mention “take me out to the ballgame” at every baseball field in America.

Sounders 'til I die

by SounderJunkie on Dec 22, 2011 1:30 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Oh look, some idiot from ESPN

now THERE is something you don’t see very often. Its great we have guys writing from the other coast to tell us how real our experiences are.

by luckystriker on Dec 22, 2011 6:36 AM PST reply actions   2 recs

Caple working from here doesn't negate what I said

ESPN is still and always will be East-coast Sports Preferred Network. I do not rate them on anything other than statistics reporting. Caple’s just showing anti-soccer in America bias, which is par for the course with ESPN. They do drive-by hit pieces just like they do drive-by coverage.

by luckystriker on Dec 22, 2011 7:28 AM PST up reply actions  

He's quoting someone who loves soccer

the person just doesn’t want soccer to be popular. There’s no anti-soccer bias in this Caple story.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 22, 2011 7:52 AM PST up reply actions  

He makes a good point, but shouldn't have called us out

I’ll always remember the days leading up to 2009, trying to convince people around me that selling out 24,500 lower bowl seats was possible. There was a feeling of pride when I could say ‘I told you so’ to all my soccer hating friends.

Sounders do have a portion of hipster/Euro wannabe fans but by no means is that our fan base. For a local guy to throw us under the bus is ridiculous.

by NateFrom120 on Dec 22, 2011 7:45 AM PST reply actions  

HEY EVERYBODY LOOK HERE FREE BEER BELOW

Jim Caple is NOT the one dissing the Sounders. He is quoting a friend of his.

Also, sorry, but there is no free beer. I know; I am evil.

@ritual605

by Greg Pirkl Lives on Dec 22, 2011 7:57 AM PST reply actions  

Quote

Caple is a good writer, he is just quoting Ian “probably Harkes”.

I have always believed that quite a few Euro soccer followers DON’T want soccer to be popular. If it gets that way they will have to take up following rugby or cricket.

People who rip on the Sounders fans ( it is rampant on SBI ) show that to an extreme. It is popular here and they don’t like it, so they make up things about the fans like their scarves are phoney, they are casual fans, they are annoying, etc…..when what they really mean is, I am not so special and that much better than everyone anymore. Next out of his mouth will be how MLS stinks and real fans watch Euro soccer.

by Charles J on Dec 22, 2011 8:19 AM PST reply actions  

Can someone tell me why they think he's referring to Harkes?

Do you really think Harkes would read London newspapers in the college library?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 22, 2011 8:26 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Splitting Dave's Response

Do you really think Harkes would read?
Do you really think Harkes would be in the college library?

by jonnyreno on Dec 22, 2011 10:58 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Piling on

I was just piling on because I thought it was funny. agree with jonnyreno, Harkes reading is even funnier.

by Charles J on Dec 22, 2011 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

*John* Harkes is not who he's quoting.

Nor is he quoting Ian Darke, I would think.

I think Caple is a really good writer … especially on baseball. I wouldn’t get too much into a twist over this one piece. There is definitely a viewpoint out there that soccer is a hipster sport; remember the WSJ piece before the first Portland-Seattle match. It’s up to fans like us to prove it’s here for the long haul.

by The King of Norway on Dec 22, 2011 8:27 AM PST reply actions  

Yawn.

Please let the season start soon.

by wmknickers on Dec 22, 2011 8:29 AM PST reply actions   2 recs

Has he ever been to a non summer game up here?

Which is about 2/3rds of the games? It’s scarf weather. Has he ever walked around Seattle when it wasn’t summer? There’s tons of scarves on people. Has he ever been to a Seahawks game? There have always been people wearing scarves, we could probably dig up photos if this was worth bothering with. What’s the difference between singing songs and making noise when the opposing team has the ball against the Seahawks? It’s fan participation in the most commonly accepted form for the sport.

He might as well just have typed out HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN! as that’s the equivalent of this article. What a moron.

by Thalas on Dec 22, 2011 10:13 AM PST reply actions  

It's great his friend Ian thinks people are paying hundreds (or thousands) of dollars to play dress up

In this economy even. I suppose his friend Ian didn’t have a flurry of texts from friends the other night going “who is this Cato?” either, but I’m sure those discussions were simply my friends trying to be like Arsenal fans or something.

by jayw913 on Dec 22, 2011 11:11 AM PST reply actions   2 recs

I call shenanigans

This “article” – and I use that word loosely for this guy – is pure crap. He’s pretty much just poking a hornet’s nest to see what he can stir up – and when we react, he’ll just sit back and laugh. This guy’s “friend” makes no sense – if he was that much of an EPL fan that he’d look up scores in the college libraries, then it makes no sense that he wouldn’t watch the games on ESPN/Fox Soccer/wherever. “Who wears scarves?” – oh, I don’t know, pretty much EVERY fan I’ve ever seen in the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, I could go on…

As a fan, you celebrate watching your team, you don’t follow a team just to feel as though you’re better than everyone else for doing it. No. Hipster a**holes do that crap, like, you know, him.

by Ilsidri on Dec 22, 2011 11:26 AM PST reply actions  

The article is about being an exclusivist

not a first adopter, but an only-adopter.

Soccer was one paragraph. It was about TinTin, as the link states.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Dave's Twitter

by Dave Clark on Dec 22, 2011 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, but if the article was about Tin Tin, then why the hell do you even bring soccer into the conversation? Is there soccer in Tin Tin? Is it huge part of the story? Does Tin Tin play in the EPL or something? As far as I know, no. So there’s no darn reason for this guy to go poking a stick at people for something they love, other than to get a reaction out of us. Shenanigans, I say.

Also, I say, his article/blog post/whatever you want to call it was poorly written. =)

by Ilsidri on Dec 22, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

It's because he writes for ESPN

And to have his article circulated he needs to connect it to sports somehow. He picked a bad way to tie it in, though.

I met a possum.

by s0merand0mdude on Dec 22, 2011 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought he was pretty clearly talking about soccer...

With the slight cover being that he was also talking about Tin Tin

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.

by Jeremiah Oshan on Dec 22, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

My friend, Ian, just bought season tickets for the first time for 2012

I think that is a different Ian, too.

Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!

by chrisso on Dec 22, 2011 11:31 AM PST reply actions   2 recs

Trolling for Sounders traffic

There’s probably a ‘take at least one shot at the Sounders a week’ line item in the editorial handbook

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Dec 22, 2011 1:52 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

So...

In the last day the article has only been tweeted four times, and now has 27 comments (all of them negative). If my math is correct, Jim Caple’s regular readership is somewhere just south of zero.

by AshReza on Dec 22, 2011 2:48 PM PST reply actions  

TinTin Sucks

Is that how to work this trolling thing?

by bmvaughn on Dec 22, 2011 4:31 PM PST reply actions  

Sad that Caple's from Seattle

And he had to rely on his friend Ian for that quote.

by bmvaughn on Dec 22, 2011 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

"My friend says"

Is anyone even buying that there is an Ian? Made up quotes go better in a made up person than they do from the columnist himself. Its not unlike Fox news with their “There are those that say …..” (insert whatever anti-Obama talking point they want to appear to be “fair an balanced” with)

Trolling column, clueless reporter. No one likes us / we don’t care.

by luckystriker on Dec 22, 2011 6:09 PM PST reply actions  

Ian remembers English league 20 years ago

If he is actually to go to Premiership game right now, he would be surprise how much it changed. The home support with the exception of a few ground is almost nonexistent. All singing and chanting usually comes from the visiting section. Did Roy Keane called once MUtd supporters “Prawn sandwich” brigade?

Every time I go to watch Croatia plays, I take my scarf with me, and there are thousands people like that. Go to any game in Italy, Germany, Spain, Netherlands (but don’t attack keeper)…, and you will see so many scarfs. It was (and still is) a part of the standard dress code for the supporters. Yes, we have casuals, but I am not sure that Ian would understand that.

by seattle 13 on Dec 22, 2011 8:58 PM PST reply actions  

Zzz

This isn’t about the physical act of wearing a scarf, it’s the sad eulogy of a man who feels left behind in his sports-loving proclivities, something he’s made a career and a life of. He got a bonus pass to basically move to seattle to be cool to be a random writer for ESPN, like 15 years ago.

Now, this relatively recent transplant, post-Grunge Seattlelite tries to intimate he’s some Seattle old-school hard ass.

He’s ignorant of and hates soccer, that much is obvious, but and therefore this critique shouldn’t be taken as anything indicative of Sounders or Sounders fans. Dont be so defensive guys!!!!!

I forgive you Caple. Seattle is indeed changing. And scarves or not, call it a COSTUME PARTY cause its COSTUME PARTY SOUNDERS and I cant wait til kickoff 2012. CONCACAF CHamps league anyone?!?!

by RalfZakuani on Dec 22, 2011 9:24 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Just admit there is a strong hipster element to the Sounder's fanbase.

Denying it just makes you sound ridiculous.

I'm so positive, you'll need AZT later.

by Steen on Dec 26, 2011 6:59 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

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