Open Fiction Friday - What's that? A Different F Word?
by Dave Clark on Dec 23, 2011 12:24 PM PST
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PrintOften our entry into the weekly OFF-topic post is flavor, but after a week in which I compared Kurt Schmid to an Aes Sedai I thought it may be a good time to talk about some of my favorite books. Clearly I'm a huge fan of "Ender's Game" (and the two streams of sequels). No one who reads this site on a regular basis can miss a reference to these books. Ender's Game is such a strong novel for either the young adult where it reads like an adventure novel, but also carries powerful adult tones about how society treats children and tactics in modern warfare (it is on some reading lists in military academies). There's also a movie that should come out
Another Orson Scott Card novel that I can't recommend often enough is "The Worthing Saga." The format of this one is a bit odd. It starts as a novella that appears to be a fantasy story in a late middle ages level technology where you eventually learn that the universe also includes the highest of technologies. It tells the tale of why pain makes joy worthwhile. It then supplements that novella with short stories that dive deeper into some interior tales from the first 2/3rds of the book.
In other speculative fiction I'm a huge fan of Neal Stepheson. He's certainly grown into being a writer of epics rather than more conventional formats, but the tale in "Anathem" captures so much about modern society that every page is a must read. Part of the 'literary sci-fi' movement the editorial commentary on a movement away from science towards meek acceptance in technology will be worth your time. In non-fiction he has a book called "In The Beginning Was The Command Line" which is a history of computer operating systems through the early 90s.
What are your favorite books?
Feel free to talk about other non-soccer stuff with this community as well.
FanPosts only represent the opinions of the poster, not of Sounder at Heart.
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The Ball is Round
Just started reading it… a global history of soccer. Not a light read at 992 pages.
http://www.amazon.com/Ball-Round-Global-History-Soccer/dp/1594482969
I’m not much for fiction..
Got that last year
Part travelogue, part soccer culture.
I’m getting Long Range Goals by Beau Dure this year. It’s about the financial foundation of MLS. Also by one of the strongest national MLS writers that frequents SBN. No joke.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
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I thought this book was fascinating.
I love reading history, and this was just such a great look at global history, not just the history of the game.
Fiction I don’t read as much anymore, but when I do, it’s usually some po-mo author — DeLillo, Calvino, Marquez, Barthelme. God I’m pretentious.
by The King of Norway on Dec 23, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
Burton & Swinburne series
Since you bring up the science fiction, I love this alternative-history steampunk sci-fi time-travelling adventure brew. Book Three just came out this month.
http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Affair-Spring-Heeled-Swinburne/dp/1616142405
Terry Goodkind and his Sword of Truth series
Anything by Robert Ludlum.
by wyte_lightning on Dec 23, 2011 12:38 PM PST reply actions
Sword of Truth
GOod series, little repetitive but definately some great books mixed in. Really enjoyed the one where he was “married” to Nicci and working behind enemy lines. Enjoyable series.
Have you read the book “Nine” (or whatever its called) that he wrote that tied in with the series?
guilty pleasure
Was the tv series they made off that “Legend of the Seeker”
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Dec 24, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
That was definitely a fun series.
Shame that it was canceled after two seasons though.
by wyte_lightning on Dec 26, 2011 3:37 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Combining Sci-fi and Detective Fiction...
Two books that do a great job combining cool elements of my two favorite fiction genres:
Chasm City, by Alistair Reynolds – part of his Revelation Space universe. His books can be a bit long but the world-building and hard sci-fi elements are top-notch. I enjoyed the entire series.
The City and The City, by China Mieville. I’m reading this now (almost finished) and it’s completely different from anything I’ve ever read. In a good way. A murder mystery set in present(ish)-day Eastern Europe(ish), in two cities that exist in the same place. I was dubious because of all the acclaim the book received, but it lives up to the hype.
A good friend gave me Revelation Space on the greatest moment in Timbers 2011
their away draw to Seattle was on my birthday.
It’s a book that you work through and enjoy, but I thought had some timeline issues. Chasm City is on my reading list because it feels like the more localized nature should make for better reading.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Follow @bedirthan Dave's Twitter
I totally agree with that.
It was their greatest moment. Followed in a close second by their star mid phenom scoring his Goal of the Year… in a home loss.
Agree about Revelation Space and Chasm City too.
Mieville is one of my aboslute favorite authors
I saw him when he came here for a reading of his latest, Embassytown – which is also fantastic, BTW.
I really enjoy reading if I make the time
I have more of a to do list of books to read:
First need to finish Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, then:
Atlas Shrugged
Inverting the Pyramid
Soccernomics
End the Fed
A couple others than I can’t remember the titles to. Favorite books of all time are Catcher in the Rye, 1984, Slaughterhouse 5, and any Calvin & Hobbes :)
by chrisperry1983 on Dec 23, 2011 1:01 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Inverting the Pyramid is good. Interesting historical persepctive into the game.
Soccernomics is a great read. Salinger and the mighty Kurt V are always good picks.
I can’t stand Ayn Rand though.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Dec 23, 2011 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
ugg
Is there currently anymore overrated author then Ayn Rand? Purely ideological palp.
by Robb Lincoln on Dec 24, 2011 7:49 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Regarding soccer, I'm super excited to hopefully have the time to read Soccernomics and Inverting the Pyramid
All my soccer friends that have read them said they’re awesome. Beckham Experiment was the other I was thinking of. Not sure if it’ll be as enlightening as the other two, but I like Grant Wahl’s writing and regularly read his columns.
by chrisperry1983 on Dec 24, 2011 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Beckham Experiment....
was a nice, quick read. Learn a bit about Alexi Lalas, and learn a LOT about how truly dysfunctional the whole Galaxy operation was for awhile.
That was one of the draws, for me
Kind of a behind the scenes of that whole thing. Also I’m curious to see how things were then, with Beckham being booed by fans compared to now where he’s a hero.
by chrisperry1983 on Dec 24, 2011 1:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Clean missed the Aes Sedai reference before. You win major points for working that in.
A recent favorite series for me is Glen Cook’s Black Company saga. Dark fantasy, and brilliantly written. There are a few slogging stretches in a couple of books, but for the most part it’s a pretty pace-y read. Some of the best character writing I’ve come across in some time.
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Black Company
I’ve heard good things about this series—need to give it a try.
by Robb Lincoln on Dec 24, 2011 7:50 AM PST up reply actions
What is Aes Sedai?
I’ve read the entire Ender and Bean series (can’t wait for next book in January) but don’t remember this reference.
I don’t think a regular movie could work. Child actors could never do the characters justice. A top notch animated movie would be awesome.
Just purchased season tickets for next year!
Section 338, row A, 11-12. As if I already couldn’t wait for next season to start I’ve now upped the anticipation level. Don’t I feel like a real adult now…
Recessionproof since 2009.
Anathem is probably my favorite book of the last few years.
But I’ve liked everything he’s written. I just finished his new giant novel, “Reamde” which was enjoyable, but not as good. In other fantasy I really enjoyed Roger Zelazny’s Amber series, and for scifi Lois McMaster Bujold’s Vorkosigan series is one I have always enjoyed. For non-fiction, I would recommend Fareed Zakaria’s “The Post-American World” to everyone. It came out right before the financial crisis, but it is still very applicable (if not even more applicable).
Zelazny.....
The Amber novels are one of my all time favorite series, as maybe you can tell from my screen name. A bit dated in many respects, at this point. But still very much worth getting into.
I saw someone else mention Lord of Light. Pretty much a stand alone novel. But right there as one of my faves, “back in the day”.
It’s not sci-fi, but if anyone wants pure writing genius – character development, rousing good stories, magical use of the language (even though you have to learn and wade through a ton of nautical jargon)….try Patrick O’Brian and the twenty-some volume “Aubrey / Maturin” series. Someone once said of it, “A single novel in twenty some parts”. No finer reading to be had.
Killer Angels, by Michael Shaara is also a superb book. It’s an account of Gettysburg that just can’t be put down.
Arthurian legend “The Once and Future King”, by T.H. White was a real page turner when I was younger.
Nonfiction -
“At Dawn We Slept”, by Gordon Prange, tells the story of Pearl Harbor in unmatched detail.
“With the Old Breed” by E B Sledge, if you want to REALLY know what the Marines went through in the Pacific….
So many great, great books…so little time…..
Warped mind
Ever since my father got me hooked on reading John Steinbeck’s Cannery Row and Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged on the same weekend in 7th grade, I’ve had a rather warped view of the world and literature.
Plowed through all of those and then just kept diving in when ever I found something that interested me. My favorite sci fi authors as a young adult were Heinlein and Gordon R. Dickson. Remember reading the Ender novels and enjoying them, but wouldn’t consider myself an Ender fan. Do love a good cyberpunk yarn, Gibson, Stephenson and the novel Heavy Weather. Dabbling in Steampunk. Love a good yarn.
Off beat and warped??
Try a couple of books by John Meany, “Bone Song” and “Black Blood”!! Magic, zombie-esque, detective stories. Loved them!
Also offbeat and very entertaining were the two “succession” novels, “The Risen Empire” and " The Killing of Worlds", by Scott Westerfeld.
I wish both those authors would write more…..
One other
Discovered Paolo Baccigaluppi a while back. His stuff is amazing. The Wind Up Girl kept me up turning pages. Can’t wait for the sequel of Shipbreaker to come out. Reminds me a lot of Harlan Ellison. Angry candy.
by Abbott Smith on Dec 24, 2011 8:18 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
The Warrior's Apprentice - Lois McMaster Bujold
Good sci-fi book (and start of what’s mostly a great series) that I’m guessing you’d like.
Lord of Light – Roger Zelazny Great sci-fi masquerading as fantasy
Stolen Away – Max Allan Collins Really great historical fiction written as a pulp-detective novel. Author does a ton of research on a historical mystery, then plops his gumshoe in the middle of it with a penchant for rum and dames, and then tells you the story (sticking pretty close to actual events, telescoping time a bit and representing some teams by an individual investigator, but more or less what happened, with his guy discovering the author’s theory on how it actually played out)
It appears we share similar tastes in fiction.
Stolen Away looks very interesting. I’ll have to pick it up.
I too have a "to do list"
of books which I have bought but haven’t read yet. First on the list is…
Ender’s Game, followed by
Foundation- Asimov
Wizard’s First Rule-Terry Goodkind and finally
The Reality Dysfunction-Peter F. Hamilton
So many words so little time.
Oh and...
on the non-book front I just finished watching Deep Space 9 on Netflix. Not a huge Star Trek fan, but, it kept me engaged to the end of the series. Pretty good actually.
by Adam Waltering on Dec 23, 2011 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If DS9 did it for you check out Stargate: Atlantis
My girlfriend got me hooked after watching the first couple episodes. Its a little cheesy at some points but still a good show.
As far as fiction, check out the Preacher graphic novels if you get a chance.
Very original story, be warned though, very violent and twisted.
Im usually a history/non-fiction guy so here are a few suggestions.
The War of the World – Niall Ferguson
The Great Shark Hunt – Hunter S Thompson
Not so Wild a Dream – Eric Sevareid This book in particular is great. One of the most interesting and well written books I’ve ever read.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Dec 23, 2011 2:32 PM PST reply actions
The only graphic novel...
I ever got into was Y: the Last Man. Kinda unoriginal I know but it was quite good.
by Adam Waltering on Dec 23, 2011 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
Preacher's got it all man.
An alcoholic Preacher with a demon/angel spawn inside of him. An Irish vampire who fought in the Easter rising. A seceret society running world governments willing to kill anyone who gets in their way.
Oh yeah, and a kid who survived a self-inflicted shotgun blast to the face named…..Arseface.
Family entertainment at it’s best!
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Dec 23, 2011 2:42 PM PST up reply actions
check out
Ex machina. It’s by the same author
-Ben R.
by reesebw on Dec 24, 2011 11:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I got Ken Jennings' Maphead and the Parks and Rec tie-in book for Christmas.
I need to finish the latest Michael Lewis disaster-finance book and Craig Thompson’s giant HabibI comic.
by yuniform on Dec 27, 2011 11:00 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Aside from some of the obvious big ones...
Steven Erikson’s Malazan Empire Series, I think Dead House Gate is the first one. I’m always suprised to never see this series mentioned one people talk about great sc-fi/Fantasy novels. The plot is twisted and the character development is done well, the whole series is a little dark too. If you enjoy sticking with a world/characters for a while this series has about 10 books so far and each one is 700-1000 pages long. Filled with detail without feeling like your getting bogged down in it.
One other one.
The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd. I picked it up in the airport flying to Louisiana and couldn’t put it down. Its historical research presented in a story format. I can’t recommend this book enough.
Just finished a couple of the Bas-Lag books from China Mieville.
Pretty amazing. I’d recommend Perdido Street Station to just about anyone. Pretty mind blowing stuff.
Also I’d second the nomination for The City and The City.
by moyerLIVES on Dec 23, 2011 3:20 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Perdido Street Station...
To enjoy that totally, do I need to read the other Bas-Lag books and read them in order?
Perdido street is the first chronologically.
They aren’t at all connected plot wise. Different stories in the same world.
by moyerLIVES on Dec 23, 2011 7:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
If you want to stay in chronological order (which you don't need to do at all for the books to make sense on their own)
Then it goes Perdido → The Scar → Iron Council
I’ve only read the first two myself so far
There's a book named after former Sounders trialist Tye Perdido?
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Follow @bedirthan Dave's Twitter
Iron Council is good but my least favorite of the three
Some cool ideas in it though, like the time elemental.
Bummed MLS Rumors is down for the count
The constant MLS gossip makes me feel just like we are in the Euro leagues. At least we still have the Sounders rumors: http://ssfc-rumors.blogspot.com/
by Brougham Hooligan on Dec 23, 2011 3:24 PM PST reply actions
I'll have to chime in with Jim Butcher's Dresden Files (Urban Fantasy/Mystery)
Being a wizard for hire (the only one listed in Chicago’s phone books!) is tough.Especially when just about every magical and supernatural thing mankind ever knew about is real and you have to work hard to keep an ignorant public safe and clueless as possible.
He takes a bit to hit his stride (there are a few concepts introduced in the first book or two that get dropped later), but starting with Book 4 the writing becomes much more cohesive. I think the author actually said somewhere that new readers should start with the fourth book and read the first three later to get backstory.
Work hard, play harder, rest easy.
YES!
Love the noir-ness and character development. Can’t wait for the follow up to Ghost Stories.
by Robb Lincoln on Dec 24, 2011 7:58 AM PST up reply actions
BIg fan of the killer B's (Benford, Brin, Bear)
The uplift series, the forge of god, darwins children, kiln people. Also a big fan of Ender’s Game series as well. And love pretty much anything AC Clarke ever wrote. Soft spot for Edgar Rice Burroughs. John Carter of Mars first sci-fi I ever read. Got me hooked on the genre. Sea Wolf by Jack London. Tom Robbins “Still life with the woodpecker” was my favorite. Currently reading Soccer: Modern Tactics Carlo Ancelotti et al; The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Agaisnt al-Qaeda. by Ali H. Soufan and Daniel Freedman. Just finished Keith Richards ‘Life’, and the Game of Thrones series.
I had the great pleasure of attending a writing conference where Bear was the keynote
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart Follow @bedirthan Dave's Twitter
Not fiction but...
Everyone should read Unbroken, by Laura Hillenbrand.
I've started to pick up a few graphic novels
to take read while I’m not studying. I have started reading “Ex-Machina.” It’s pretty interesting. It’s about a former super hero, whose ability is to talk and control to machines, who gives up his super hero persona and vigilante crusade and becomes mayor of New York City. It’s used as a interesting way to explore social issues and politics.
I think the last piece of literature I read was “Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close.” The movie looks terrible and nothing at all like I imagined the book representing. It’s a really good novel though.
But, as far as academic reading, I recently read Karl Marx’s Capital Vol 1, and sections of Vol 2 and 3. It was actually pretty enjoyable reading. Kant, on the other hand, is pain in the ass to read, but has some pretty fantastic ideas and arguments.
-Ben R.
Favorites
Sci-fi: Vernor Vinge’s A FIRE UPON THE DEEP. Read it if you haven’t. Fantastic. Herbert’s Dune, of course. Especially the first two.
Fantasy: Tolkien, obviously, but having finally given in and read all of George Martin’s Game of Thrones series after the TV show — it’s so worth the sometimes rough slog book 4 of 5 is.
General fiction: I can never, ever get enough Christopher Moore. His books are hilarious. Fluke and Biff are great.
Other classics — Poe, Wells. You can never go wrong.
Neal Stephenson
Currently working through REAMDE, well more like blazing through it, loving it! Of course I think it helps that I was involved in playing MMO’s for my teenage years, so I understand some of the underlying info there.
That said my favorite books by him are by far and away the Baroque Cycle, I loved the way the stories intertwined, and I’ve always enjoyed history.
I had Cryptonomicon on the shelf for quite some time before I broke it open (the first novel I read by him), ever since I can’t put a book of his down.
I’m a sucker for series though, I get so attached need multiple books!
No particular order for series:
Redwall (the series that really helped foster my love of reading)
Chronicles of Narnia
Dinotopia (remember these? classics!)
Harry Potter
LoTR (Silmarillion)
Dune ( all prequel series, surprisingly can’t get into the last couple books that they’ve interjected into a couple gaps)
Pillars of the Earth (essentially 2 book series in tandem with World without end)
Baroque Cycle
A Song of Ice and Fire (aka Game of Thrones)
The three Langdon books.(does this series have a name? the Dan Brown novels featuring Robert Langdon)
The Sword of Truth
Kingkiller Chronicles
etc…….
Seems a fair amount of sci-fi/fantasy conosieurs here has anyone read the first two books of the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss? I find them to be really well written.
To this day I still do all my reading at night, I remember many mornings as a child waking up on the floor with a blanket having fallen asleep onto my book as I lay near the nightlight.
I shared a room with my brother until I was 19, so my practices never truly changed, was always reading by flashlight or laying on the ground near a wall plug in, and to this day that is how I’m most comfortable operating.
As a kid however, I found myself more susceptable to the rush of novels, and seemed to have an endless ability to forego sleep and push on through another chapter. Once in a while a certain book or section of a book will do that for me, and all I can do is think of the years gone past.
Love Ender's Game, but not a fan of the worthing Saga.
Also from Orson Scott Card:
The Alvin Maker Series A great series. It’s about the only pure fantasy that I really like and I hope he writes the final book soon though, it’s been 8 years since the last installment.
Pastwatch – Another great book. With both the Alvin Maker Series, you have to be careful not to confuse fiction with history while reading it.
Empire Series – A bitter disappointment. Orson Scott Card’s core talent has always been to present sympathetic characters and try to make you understand your view. The empire series is about political issues that are obviously far too close to his heart and he fails to step outside of himself.
Homecoming Saga – A well-written story with interesting characters, but this one really falls more into the Fantasy camp than sci-fi and just wasn’t really my thing.
The Lost Boys – Frankly, this book is just a downer. It’s well written enough, but Card has admitted that he was in a dark place when he wrote it.
Magic Street – Meh. The story in this book is too shallow and doesn’t live up to his other works at all.
I could go on, but I probably shouldn’t.
Sounders 'til I die
My favorite books/series
Song of Ice and Fire (series)
Wheel of Time
Malazan Book of the Fallen – series of books by Steven Erikson
All the Star Wars books I’ve read which is too many to list, but specifically the Thrawn Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn duology by Timothy Zahn
Also glad to be back in Seattle area for a week!
Some of the things I've read/reading..
The Clockwork Century books by Seattle author Cherie Priest
Whitechapel Gods S.M. Peters
Hunger Games
Girl With The Dragon Tattoo
Phoenix Rising – A Ministry Of Peculiar Occurrences Novel
Red Storm Rising
Hunt For Red October
The Borne Legacy
Just a small list…Most of what I’ve read or going to read is over at GoodReads.com
Follow me on twitter@PrixFixeOnline
Staff writer for Managing Madrid
Authors:
Fiction: Fyodor Dostoevsky, Graham Green, Flannery O’Connor, Bohumil Hrabal
Non-Fiction: David Sedaris, Sarah Vowell, Jared Diamond, Søren Kierkegaard
FRIMPONG ought always be written in full caps #DEEEEEEENCH
that looks like my bookshelf...though I think Sedaris and Vowell are a tiny bit better when they read them aloud
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
I don't read a lot of fiction, because I have no imagination.
Revolutionary Road is probably my favorite work of fiction, A Confederacy of Dunces a close second. I’ve always really liked Douglas Coupland, for reasons I do not entirely understand.
As far as non-fiction is concerned, I cannot recommend 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus highly enough. I really like Jared Diamond a lot and think that Guns, Germs and Steel should be required reading for pretty much everyone; Collapse is also excellent. Carl Sagan is one of my heroes, and The Demon Haunted World is a book I read at a very difficult time in my life that had a massive effect on my worldview.
I also read a fair amount of sports related non-fiction, not surprisingly. Winning At All Costs is an excellent book on the history of Italian soccer. David Halberstam’s sports books are all great.
Cool topic.
I recently read Stephen King’s 11/22/63. It was ok. Great concept, uneven execution.
Right now I’m reading Jane Leavy’s The Last Boy which is a recent entry into the Mickey Mantle biography genre. It’s excellent so far. Baseball really lends itself to good writing.
Next up is Murakami’s 1Q84. Murakami is one of my favorites — the surrealism combined with Japanese sensibilities really appeals to me. Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World is probably my favorite of his.
And if that isn’t hipster enough for you, anything ever written by David Foster Wallace is worth reading with Infinite Jest at the top of the list.
Love Neal Stephenson, too. Tried to get into Cherie Priest but wasn’t successful. May take another run at Boneshaker eventually.
I'm currently reading
The Pursuit Of Glory, by Tim Blanning – Europe 1648-1815
Carthage Must Be Destroyed, Richard Miles – History Of Carthage
Invasion Of The Body, by Nicolas Tilney – History of surgery
The Stories Of English, by David Crystal – Linguistic history of English and variants
Travelling Heroes, by Robin Lane Fox – Interactions of early Greek culture with other civilisations
Alexander Hamilton, by Ron Chernow – Biography
Books that came out this year that I really liked…
The Crimean War, by Orlando Figes – a really interesting book on a subject that nobody seems to know much about
Cycles of Time, by Roger Penrose – an argument for a new understanding for heat death that’s really interesting if not entirely persuasive (nb: you probably need to be at advanced undergrad level with maths and physics for this one).
Song of Wrath, by J.E. Lendon – Early stages of the Peleponnesian war. Brilliantly written and gives a startling insight into the ways different cultures treat wars.
1493, by Charles Mann – not as good as 1491, because that’s incredibly difficult, but eye opening and you’ll be reciting anecdotes from it for ages.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 12:22 PM PST reply actions
Oh, and one that I think came out before but I never got around to reading until recently
A Country of Vast Designs, by Robert Merry – James K. Polk was a boss, James Buchanan was a twazzock. The more you know!
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Having not read...
Cycles of Time, isn’t heat death kind of a simple, immutable consequence of the expansion of the universe? Wouldn’t a different outcome require a different reality of our physics/universe? (For the record I only have a passing fascination with the subject and am by no means an expert)
by Adam Waltering on Dec 24, 2011 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
But there are interesting implications to a specific form of heat death. This is kind of a handwavey explanation, but hypothetically, if the universe is made up of particles with no rest mass* thanks to black hole action, spacetime as we’re familiar with it ceases to exist, because photons etc don’t have an internal clock by which to measure time. They’re everywhere all at once, which means you have a weird singularity that’s equivalent to the big bang. Penrose then presents some testable ways of seeing whether or not this idea has any validity and then claims to have detected gravity waves in the cosmic microwave background that re consistent with what we’d expect from interactions of supermassive black holes form a previous cycle. Like I said, it’s really interesting.
*This is the weakest part of the book for me, because he’s failed to convince me about rogue massive particles that don’t get sucked into black holes, unless it was part of the maths that I didn’t understand.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
Ok so,
Since in the event of heat death time does not exist and therefor particles have no rest mass (since relativity is not possible) (the black hole part is confusing since I thought black holes evaporated). So, somehow particles being massless makes them some sort of new singularity, well, is that singularity on the universal scale or is it at the scale of the original big bang? Also, this means it would be a cycle that could continue infinitely would it not? Well, in my head I feel I’m beginning to picture the idea but the mechanics behind it elude me. Sounds like an interesting read, I think I’ll pick it up.
by Adam Waltering on Dec 24, 2011 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
Black holes evaporate into Hawking radiation, which is massless
Anyway, particles having no rest mass means that nothing in the universe is time variant, which has a number of odd implications, the most important of which is that distance itself ceases to exist. So the state of the universe Penrose projects at 10^100 years is exactly equivalent to a singularity.
And yes, it’s an endless cycle, hence the name.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
To explain further, since I missed your point a little bit
It’s not heat death = particles have no rest mass, it’s that particles have no rest mass as a natural consequence of the conditions we associate with heat death.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
I suppose I'm having trouble
differentiating the two, heat death means that lack of relativity consequently causes particles to have no mass (rest mass is a consequence of relativity). I think I know where I’m confused, my idea of heat death was that particles were separated by distance due to universal expansion, but that isn’t right is it? It’s that the particles are redshifted and stretched. Or is it both? Anyway, I’m sure you have better things to do but, this is fascinating. Sounds like a must read.
by Adam Waltering on Dec 24, 2011 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
Heat death isn't necessarily to do with particle separation
The most natural way for me to think about it is in terms of work gradients – heat death is the point where there’s no way to use an energy gradient (including gravity, which is why you can’t have heat death until every black hole in the universe has evaporated) to do any work.
But yeah, if this conversation is interesting you, pick it up. It’s a very difficult read but you’ll emerge with a much greater understanding of both entropy and very deep time. I really enjoyed it once I forced myself to take things verrry slowly.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
I swear
this is the last one…my understanding of entropy is that things go from order to chaos but wouldn’t heat death mean that things are back to perfectly ordered?
by Adam Waltering on Dec 24, 2011 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Yes!
That’s to do with black holes’ abilities to destroy degrees of freedom in particles – once in the singularity the information in any particle is not preserved, which is a necessary violation of the second law of thermodynamics. Apparently that’s a legitimate sort of thing to do, but without the book to hand the exact argument escapes me.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 24, 2011 4:08 PM PST up reply actions
To keep with the theme
The Heat Death of the Universe is a very good, if old, scifi short story about how brutal suburbia can be.
Just finished and working on....
Just finished:
Team of Rivals -Doris Kearns Goodwin
The Hole in Our Gospel – Richard Stearns (president of World Vision International)
The Hunger Games trilogy
Working on:
The Reagan Diaries
“To-do” list:
I want to re-read the Chronicles of Narnia, haven’t read since I was a kid.
Ender’s Game – I’d never heard of it until reading this site, and I’m thoroughly intrigued.
The Reagan I knew – William Buckley
a long, long, long list of others….
Richard Stearns is awesome
Our pastor just finished a series that was in part based on the premise of that book, pretty cool stuff. That is another I would like to read.
by chrisperry1983 on Dec 24, 2011 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
Dude, it's life changing.
My father-in-law, who also happens to be my pastor, did a series last spring tackling social justice, and working through “The Hole in our Gospel”. Our church took a lot of flak from other churches in the area, but who cares. The message is worth it.
It’s a must read.
will add it to my list
Thanks!
by chrisperry1983 on Dec 24, 2011 11:52 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
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