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The 2011 MLS Playoff Format: New Look, Same Old Flaws

The MLS Cup is considered the League Championship, and like other North American sports, the winner of the Championship is the winner of a playoff.  The MLS structure of the last few years has left many to wonder if this really should be the case.

The playoffs of the last two years have been dogged by some serious concerns.  I'd like to take a look at what I consider to be three of these problems, and whether the new format really addresses or fixes them.

The "Geographical Punishment" problem: 

This has actually been perfectly demonstrated by our own Sounders in each of our first two years in MLS.  In 2009 we finished 4th overall [the 2009 schedule was close enough to being balanced to warrant a single table] but only 3rd in the West.  As a result we took on Houston in the first round, who had finished 3rd overall; while Chicago, 5th overall but 2nd in the East, took on New England, who were 3 in the East but 7th overall.

Last year was a mess.  Three of the top 4 overall teams were in the West, as well as 4 of the top 6 and 6 of the top 8.  Our Sounders, at 6th overall, were nonetheless given the 4th West seed, taking on the #1 overall LA Galaxy.  Infuriatingly enough, Colorado, at 7th overall and 5th in the West, became the East #3, matching up against #5 overall Columbus; and #8 overall San Jose, 6th in the West, became #4 in the East and took on #3 overall NYRB.  Dallas, a team which looked likely to finish #3 overall, were locked into a West #3 seed and had nothing to play for the last two weeks of the season, thus slipping to 4th.  As the #4 overall they drew the #2 overall RSL. 

The 2011 "Fix":

Actually, it appears to be an exacerbation.  Granted, each conference has 1 more team, but there is now 1 more "locked in" playoff spot per conference.  And that "locked in" spot is far more valuable, as it means you get to bypass the "wildcard" or "play-in" round.  The Conference alignment has, in fact, been enhanced by this new system.  While this would make perfect sense if there were unbalanced,  conference-based schedules this year, there are of course not. 

It remains entirely possible that as early as next year, and almost certainly by 2013 when there are 20 teams, that we will see unbalanced, conference-based schedules.  But to keep this conference-based seeding system in place as what seems to be a place-holder for the future, it seems like all the League is doing is sacrificing competitive fairness during this balanced-schedule era for the sake of familiarity.  This strikes me as asinine.

Chew on this: in each of the last two years, the #3 Eastern team has been 7th or lower overall.  But this isn't about East being weaker than West; this isn't about Western teams competing for the Eastern conference championship or vice versa - although the League, rather naively, seems to think so.  What this is about is properly rewarding the regular season (more on this below).  Basing a team's seeding in large part on geography, when this has no bearing on the schedule, is absurd.

Star-divide

The "Importance of the regular season" problem:

A huge complaint about the way the MLS Champion is crowned is that, after a grueling, double round-robin [or as in the case of '09 a double-round-robin +2 more against regional opponents] 7-month long competition, in which teams must grind out results through thick and thin, injury and health, and even amidst other competitions, the Cup comes down to an extremely abbreviated knockout phase in which half, or slightly more than half, of the teams get to participate.  In short, it seems to drastically diminish the regular season, and what I like to call the "sanctity" of those matches.  At some point you must ask yourself what 30 or 34 matches over 32 weeks really mean if an average team can win the championship by dint of what happens over just 4 matches in the last 3 weeks.  

The 2011 "Fix":
A slight exacerbation, a slight improvement, and overall a wash.  What exacerbates it is now, of course, more teams get in: 10 of 18, or 55.5% to be exact.  There will be  those to point out that throughout MLS history 8 teams have made the playoffs.  At one point it was 8 of 10, then 8 of 12, then, then 8 of 13, then 8 of 14 (57%).  The last two years it has been 8 of 15 (53.3%) and obviously 8 of 16 (50%).  It's also worth pointing out that in the old 10 and 12-team MLS the schedules were unbalanced and conference based.  In the 13 and 14-team MLS it was semi-balanced and this is when the conference crossover concept was introduced.  

The slight improvement comes from the fact that there is a slight premium placed on the top 3 in each conference, as mentioned above.  Teams "on the bubble" of that 6-7 spot will obviously be motivated to avoid the wildcard round, as will teams pushing for that 10th spot.  It does little to mitigate the hollow feeling of winning the Supporters Shield, however.  The fact that the #1 overall will play the lowest remaining seed does little to change the obvious flaw from the last few years that there is no genuine home-field advantage in the two-legged conference semifinals.   (there is said to be an advantage to having the home leg second, of course...)  

Meanwhile, the "paper title" of regular season conference winner remains, and there still exists the very real possibility that one bracket may be demonstrably stronger than the other (as in 2010 when the West contained 1,2,4,6 overall and the East 3,5,7,8).  The MLS still gets to crown a "conference champion" and has managed to reduce the chances of suffering the alleged embarrassment of last year when two Western teams played for the Eastern title. and the fact that cross conference teams have won a Conference championship each of the last 3 years.  This was never the REAL problem, however, and the fact that this is the problem they chose to fix demonstrates a tone deafness we have all become used to.

The "Is the Supporters Shield the true Champion" problem:

With balanced schedules and paper conferences, the push for greater recognition of the Supporters Shield winner has gained steam, and for obvious reasons.  As I highlighted in another post, in this balanced-schedule era, it just seems as though the Shield is the most meaningful trophy to win.

The 2011 "Fix":
Probably a rather precipitous downgrade.  For all the reasons listed above and probably even more.  This new format will probably give even more voice to those who would rather win the Shield over the Cup.

I have one final thought: What Took So Long?!  
Really... if you remember Don Garber's MLS Cup half-time interview in which he revealed that there would be a 10-team playoff in 2011, he mentioned that they would spend "30 days" considering the new format, and then announce it.  

It has obviously been a lot longer than 30 days, and this begs the question of what rocket science and brain surgery was required to come up this this system, particularly considering that this was the first and most obvious solution most of us could come up with.

They actually had me believing for a while they had cooked up something special...

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The delayed announcement probably means that there was no clear consensus amongst the owners

If you don’t like this system, you should probably be happy that it took so long for them to decide on it. If they had decided on it quickly, it would be more likely that nearly all owners were in favor of it. This suggests to me that there are many owners who would rather have a different playoff format. And it’s probably a difficult problem to solve because the dissenting owners probably have many different suggestions on how to run the tournament.

by ubelmann on Feb 24, 2011 12:02 AM PST reply actions  

As follows:

2 groups of 4; each team plays each other once, at the higher seed’s stadium; top 2 advance to semi-finals; they play 1 game or 2 games, it doesn’t matter so much to me; then the MLS Cup Final.

That would be better than what they’ve got now, at least.

by WendellGee on Feb 24, 2011 1:52 AM PST reply actions  

I like it

The higher you finished the season the better the bonus.

by Derek R on Feb 24, 2011 6:04 AM PST up reply actions  

So Brian Straus' plan?

I agree, that’s probably the best one to be proposed.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 7:51 AM PST up reply actions  

It seems like MLS

mostly wanted there to be a more equitable number of teams from each conference. Embarrassed by the 6 of 8 last year.

Hmm…I wonder which owners were pushing for a format like this?

by Cornchops on Feb 24, 2011 6:53 AM PST reply actions  

It's too bad

because the best teams are going to miss out even more.

by chrisperry1983 on Feb 24, 2011 8:41 AM PST up reply actions  

It would be highly unlikely.

The only scenario I can think of would be if the top eight of one conference were all better than the third team from the other conference. That eighth team would miss out.

This is so near impossible that it’s not even worth speculating on.

by Cornchops on Feb 24, 2011 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

This is what I was thinking

and I did not think it through enough to fully realize the unlikelihood. Whenever I hear top X from each conference, it just makes me cringe.

by chrisperry1983 on Feb 24, 2011 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure why the league feels that 10 teams need to make the playoffs

Playoffs should never consist of more than 50% of the league when you have at least 14 teams, and this goes for any sport.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 24, 2011 8:18 AM PST reply actions  

I cannot wait until the season starts and we can start talking about games instead of this

I like most of what Jake writes, but this subject is not one of them. He almost writes as if there is a consensus on this subject in his favor, there is not.

by Coug1990 on Feb 24, 2011 9:42 AM PST reply actions  

Sports are not fair. They never have been.

The Sounders had a chance to beat LA, they didn’t.

by Coug1990 on Feb 24, 2011 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

the argument is not about whether sports are fair

my main issue is that I had hoped a re-working of the playoff format would at least partially reverse the trend in my thoughts that the Supporters Shield is the first and foremost trophy I want to win this season. It has not, this has, in fact, accelerated it.

I would love to feel like the Champion, which is the MLS Cup winner, is the best team in the MLS. What I have noticed about the MLS is that I actually rarely feel this way, and as a passionate Supporter of a team that plays in this League – and by proxy a Supporter of the League – this Really bothers me…

Like I have said, the MLS Cup winner is just as easily an average team which won a couple matches over a 3 or 4-week, 8 or 10-team knockout phase, as it is a team that has proven itself over a grueling schedule to be Consistently among the best 2 or 3.

I want to feel like those teams that are PROVING themselves over the Long Haul to be superior are adequately rewarded and the MLS does not do this.

At some point, I am left to wonder why the entire season shouldn’t just essentially be one long knockout, a la the Champions League.

You can argue the “fair” factor if you want. I just feel as though a League with Obvious flaws in its competitive model should strive to correct those issues, not effectively exacerbate them.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 24, 2011 10:15 AM PST up reply actions  

The concerns you have though could apply to many sports with playoffs

I don’t really buy into this notion that a team can trip over themselves and win an MLS title. Part of that is navigating the grueling 7 month schedule and making it into the playoffs.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 24, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

yep

I actually had 90% prepared a post explaining how MLS was getting trapped into what I think is the Great Folly of N. Am. pro sports, which is allowing too many teams into the playoffs. I never ran it because I spent most of my time explaining the MLB, NHL, and NBA scheduling and playoff formulas and just didn’t think it was worth the time for a blog that is 1) Sounders 2) MLS 3) soccer in general…

You are correct in part of it is the 7-months, but I would rather see the standards for playoff teams raised since there is that 7-months season. I would be content with 4 or 6 teams in the playoffs…

I used to be a pretty big Canucks NHL fan, but after following the NHL for several years it became plainly obvious to me that sweating out an 82-game regular season was basically a waste of my time. After a while, a regular season win or loss was just a “meh” and if the Canucks didn’t make the playoffs, well, its spring and I can find other things to do. Then there was a missed season and I realized I didn’t miss it…

Granted, I was just a “fan” of hockey and I am a “passionate supporter” of the Sounders, so the equation is quite different from my end of things. But I don’t want to EVER feel “meh” about ANY of our competitive matches. Knowing how the VERY abbreviated playoffs – with average teams given NEARLY equal footing to top teams – crowns a “champion” has just made me feel like focusing on the Shield this year.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 24, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Money talks in this country

I agree the NBA and NHL have too long of regular seasons and too many teams make the playoffs, but that alone does not mean that MLS should not use playoffs to determine a champion.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 24, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

The new format

helps better teams be more likely to win.

by lysander on Feb 24, 2011 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

how?!

the addition of the wild-card is at best an extremely marginal improvement

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 24, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

They certainly aren't less likely to win

The overreaction here is just laughable. It’s a tournament. It’s for fun. Deep breaths.

One way that the NCAA tournament’s vast field plays in its favor is that they bottom seeds are so bad that the top seeds essentially get byes for the first round. Now the top seeds have a reasonable chance of facing a lower quality team in the first round than they otherwise might. And depending on the schedule, that team could be on short rest.

by ubelmann on Feb 24, 2011 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

make me break out the geeky math

first of all, lets assume an even distribution of teams from 1 to 16 or 18 (which never happens). #1 overall would be in the 100th percentile, #16 or 18 would be the 0th-%-tile.

Last year, assuming #1 played #8 (which thanks to conferences didn’t happen of course) that pits the 100% vs. the 53.3% (below 7 and above 8). The home-and-home gives no clear advantage to the higher seed (a slight advantage for the 2nd leg at home, however)

This year, #1 will play, theoretically, 8,9,or 10 (although the Conferences could still screw this up!). If #1 plays #8, it is 100%-tile vs 58.8%-tile (above 10 and below 7); against #9, 52.9%tile ;against #10, 47.1%-tile.

Like I said, a marginal improvement, at best… with the same two-legged format giving no clear advantage to the higher seed…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 24, 2011 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

The key here is that there's not an even distribution

The reality is that in year’s like last year, there’s actually a potentially huge difference between the SS’s first-round opponent in this new format. Last year, the SS got the No. 6 team. It’s quite possible under the new format they would have gotten the 10th. No. 6 had 48 points, No. 10 had 36 points. There’s no guarantee that it would always be like this, but the potential is certainly there.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Except that...

the turn around time of a mid week wild card and then a weekend game vs the seeded teams is an added advantage for the seeded teams (including the marginal “3s” from both "conferences. Add a “rest” factor to the percentages….

Nos audietis in somniis
Nos audietis in altum

by chrisso on Feb 24, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Unless I missed something...

It’s still an open question as to when those wildcard games will be played. I’m assuming and hoping they are midweek, but MLS has not said they will, as far as I know.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

The point is entertainment, not crowning the absolute most deserving champion

And I do believe that MLS is setting itself up to be more in the UEFA Champions League mold than in the EPL mold. Eventually the conferences will be large enough that schedules will be unbalanced, teams will qualify for knockout rounds through their conference ranking, and then there will be an elimination tournament. Which is essentially the same format as the UEFA Champions League from the group stage onward, except that in the Champions League the group stage is a lot shorter than the MLS regular season would be.

I’m guessing that a lot of soccer fans would be pretty stoked if the top 32 teams in Europe played a 38-game unbalanced schedule against one another before the top teams advanced to the elimination rounds. And eventually, MLS will expand to 32 teams, and those teams will play a 38-ish game unbalanced schedule against one another, with the top teams advancing to the elimination rounds.

by ubelmann on Feb 24, 2011 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

This is where it turns into a debate based on opinion though

According to MLS and anyone who puts value in MLS Cup, the winner of the playoffs is the absolute most deserving champion.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 24, 2011 11:24 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

aren't most debates based on opinion?

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

There are debates over opinions, in which there are NO right answer because they are arguments over subjective values,

and there are debates over facts, in which there ARE right answers even if we do not have enough info to conclusively determine what they are. Plenty of people argue over the latter. A lot of debates are over both types of arguments.

by quacker27 on Feb 26, 2011 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay?
According to MLS and anyone who puts value in MLS Cup, the winner of the playoffs is the absolute most deserving champion.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

What is not to understand?

MLS crowns the playoff winner champion. So, MLS does value MLS Cup over Supporters Shield. There are a lot of people who value MLS Cup, so we do think that the playoff winner is the deserving champion.

Okay!

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

What he said:
According to MLS and anyone who puts value in MLS Cup, the winner of the playoffs is the absolute most deserving champion.

I put value in the MLS Cup and I disagree. So his initial statement is an incorrect generalization.

So I guess ‘what is not to understand’ is why B-Lot tailgater feels as though he can speak for everyone when clearly he does not.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

In what way?

Because I cannot see how I have done that at all.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, here goes

“So I guess ‘what is not to understand’ is why B-Lot tailgater feels as though he can speak for everyone when clearly he does not.”

You do not speak for me. Yet, your comment intimates that everyone thinks like you do and B-Lot is on the outside. As I said, you are doing the same exact thing that he is doing, just on the opposite side.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

But your mischaracterizing the statements...

“Anyone who puts value in MLS Cup” is an all-inconclusive statement. Saying “some of us” implies a much more nuanced opinion.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

It was actually B-Lot who said that

But, “some” is more nuanced. However, I do not think it makes a difference in the overall picture.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

No, I am not.

Not in the least. I have not done so at any point.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I disagree with the statement
According to MLS and anyone who puts value in MLS Cup, the winner of the playoffs is the absolute most deserving champion.

Because I place value in the MLS Cup and I do not think it is ‘the absolute most deserving champion’.

I do not think that everyone who places value in the MLS Cup agrees with me.

So yes, I am taking a contrarian view in the sense that it is very nearly the exact opposite of what he is saying, which boils down to me not thinking that everyone in the world agrees with me.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

So, you are hung up on the word "anyone"

Substitute “many” then. I believe that is what B-Lot really meant and it is more nuanced.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Come on dude

Debating what someone meant and debating our opinions are pretty different things.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 12:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I am not trying to be difficult

But, you are the one who first brought up “nuance” with is debating what someone meant and opinion

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

There is no nuance in this statement

“Anyone who believes.”

And more to the point, why are you trying to clarify someone else’s statement? Let B-Lot tell us he didn’t mean anyone if he didn’t mean anyone.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Here's the difference

Those of us pointing out the flaws in the MLS Cup playoffs are pointing out a.) our opinion that we think they do a poor job of determining a champion and b.) pointing out the FACT that a larger sample size yields a more accurate result.

We can disagree over the preferable ways to crown champions, but I would hope we can at least agree that no playoff does as good a job of determining the “best” team. Playoffs are designed to settle an imperfect argument such as unbalanced schedules. They are also designed as a way of ramping up excitement.

The best playoffs try to find a balance of excitement vs. determing the best team. From best I can tell, those of us critiquing the MLS system believe MLS is doing a poor job of striking that balance.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I disagree that a playoff does no good in determining the best team

So, you and I will not agree at all. I agree that the MLS does a poor job with the playoff system. But, I believe they will get it right, especially when it expands more and more. It may take years. MLS got it right when they got rid of the shootouts to end regular season games.

The playoffs are around because it makes money, it adds excitement, it crowns a champion and it makes money.

I am generalizing here, but people who are longtime fans of Europe tend to like the Supporters Shield. People who are not longtime European fans like playoffs.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know if that's the issue though.

I think that most of us that think the Supporters Shield crowns a more deserving champion than a playoff realize why there are playoffs in MLS. My issue is not with playoffs in general; my issue is that the MLS playoff format is really, really dumb.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Not sure if you're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements or not...

I’m not really talking about what MLS may or may not do in the future. I think it’s great you have faith that they’ll fix it. I’m not so sure they will. My point is that the current system, as well as past systems, were not good ways of determining their ultimate champion.

Playoffs are absolutely about money, about generating excitement, about giving people a reason to pay attention. Unfortunately THE MLS CUP PLAYOFFS do a uniquely poor job of balancing those desires with also crowning a deserving champion. I can think of many systems that would be an improvement and have detailed them at various times.

Critiquing this system does not mean I consider the champion illegitimate. It merely means I want them to be improved.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

What have I said in this debate?

The MLS playoff structure as has been constituted is poor. So, we are in agreement. We are in agreement in more ways than you give me credit.

Where I disagree is that just because a team has more points at the end of the season, they are automatically best or deserved team. There are so many variables throughout a season that can occur. Players get injured. Players get traded. Free agents are signed. There are bad ref calls or undeserved red cards given. If I though about it more, I could probably come up with a dozen more.

Now, while the seeding is idiotic, all teams know the rules before a game is played. That is fair.

For me, the playoffs are played at a different intensity than regular season games and that is why I think it is a deserved champion.

The Gold Medal is given to the best at the Olympics, they don’t add points up during the season or all the other competitions to crown the best. The Olympics mean something because it is the ultimate competition.

Same goes for tennis and golf. The Grand Slam events mean so much more because they are essentially playoffs, where each player gives that much more. They mean something more than just the Dayton Open.

Same with March Madness, generally each team that wins raises their level of play over what they did in the regular season. Same in the NBA, NFL, etc.

Getting through a hard playoff’ mean something and I and many other believe is deserving of being call champion.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Why isn't a regular season just as difficult?

Sure, playoff games may have a higher level of intensity, but that’s because there are fewer of them. The regular season is a marathon that requires mental and physical endurance.

The Olympics are a limited tournament because of space and time considerations. That is a wholly spurious argument. (Not to mention that Olympic sports also have their own leagues or seasons, and crown separate champions.)

Think about it this way: if a player gets injured in the course of a 30- or 34-game regular season, is that going to affect his team more or less than if he gets injured in the first game of a playoff run that could be as many as 5 games? Every injury, referee error, and other instances of fortune or misfortune has a greater effect on determining who wins in a playoff scenario because there are fewer games to even out bad luck between teams. That’s why the winner of the Supporters’ Shield should be considered the best in the league: once most good and bad breaks have been evened out, they have picked up the most points over the course of a very demanding and long season.

SBNation.com Soccer Contributor (Bundesliga, EPL)
Manager, OnceAMetro.com

by Ben Schneider on Feb 25, 2011 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I disagree

The Olympics determine a recognized champion. It is not a spurious argument. Go ask an Ice Skater who is the Champion and they will say whomever won the Olympic Gold, not who won the European Championship or Skate Canada or Skate America. Rosalyn Sumners, one of the best ice skaters ever in the Seattle area won World Championships, but she never won the Olympic Gold. She is not considered one of the greats. Why, when it really mattered, in the ultimate of tournaments, she did not win. Winning in the top tournaments mean something.

I have a question for you, what is the highest level that you played at in sports? For whatever sport you played, were the playoffs played with more intensity than your regular season games?

As I said before, those who are longtime fans of Europe, almost always like the single table crown a champion format.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

The Olympics are not highly regarded because they are a one-off

But because they allow competitors from everywhere in the world, and have become the highest stage.

You can’t tell me that Dario Cologna is not the best XC skier in the world just because Petter Northug has more Olympic medals — Cologna has crushed Northug in this year’s World Cup. The Olympics are a fluke: it is simply impossible for a city to stage such a large volume of sporting events over more than a two-week period. The playoff-style method of determining a champion is a result of convenience, not because it is a superior method.

SBNation.com Soccer Contributor (Bundesliga, EPL)
Manager, OnceAMetro.com

by Ben Schneider on Feb 25, 2011 2:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Never said it was Superior. I have not watched an Olympics in 20 years

(I hate the way NBC presents it on west coast, so I stopped watching the games)

I am not saying that the Olympics crowns the “best” and have written similar things many times. It does crown the recognized champion in most Olympic sports, most athletes do not disagree with that. It is the ultimate competition for many sports.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

No one here is arguing to eliminate the MLS Playoffs

But the change them.

That’s a fundamental difference between what they are saying and how you are responding.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Feb 25, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Except I have been saying that I disagree with the former and current playoff setup too and would like it changed

In addition, there IS someone who has been saying that they would rather have the playoffs eliminated than to keep it the way it is now.

So, you are not characterizing what I have been saying correctly.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Did the NFL crown the best team this year?

The Packers were a wild card team. They lost three of their first six. (although two were overtime losses) and they lost six overall. The Pats didn’t lose three games all season. Green Bay had almost no shot of having the best record.

But is there any question they were the best team when it counted? Did Green Bay not deserve to win the Super Bowl? I’d argue they did.

That’s the difference between a playoff champion, and a regular season points champion. The playoffs give the trophy to the best team at the end of the year, rather than the most consistent team throughout the year.

Given that there are many reasons why a good team might not have the best record (trades, injuries, coaching changes) but might still be the best team at the end, I like playoffs.

And I like this new system. I like it now (even with our balanced schedule) and I think it will work going forward as the league expands (and the schedules become unbalanced).

by Jack Brando on Feb 24, 2011 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

This is where the disconnect comes from, tho

It may be an open debate as to whether the Packers were the best team last year. But no one questions their championship because the NFL playoffs are considered a valid test of ability. The Packers had to win four games, the equivalent of 25 percent of the regular season, to be crowned champs.

The Rapids, meanwhile, only played four matches (equivalent to 13 percent of their season), and only had to win three of them. Theoretically, they could have won a championship without winning a single game in regulation despite the fact that they were just the seventh best team during the regular season.

I know that’s the thing that bugs me about this structure. It’s not the 10 teams, it’s the lack of correlation between regular-season performance and the benefits that affords teams in the playoffs.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Also, not to flog the parity series, but..

There’s substantially more luck involved in winning a single soccer game than a single football game.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Feb 24, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

that too

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

If there's more luck involved in winning a soccer game than a football game...

…then it would stand to reason that a 30-game soccer season is not necessarily more predictive of the best team in the league than a 16-game football season.

by ubelmann on Feb 24, 2011 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, that's exactly what it means

Luck plays a result in any given game, not necessarily over the long haul.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

This is a good point. And I agree.

That’s why they play 7 baseball games, 7 hockey games, and 5 or 7 basketball games in a series.

They also only play one football game because the sport is simply too violent to play that often. Players need a full week between games.

But they crown the World Cup with a single elimination tournament. And we crown our college basketball champion with a single elimination tournament. So it isn’t crazy to do so in MLS either.

In the WC, once you make it to the knock-out round, how well you did in qualifying or even in the group phase goes out the window. One team can pull 9 points out of the “group of death” and another can squeak in with 4 from a weak group. Doesn’t matter. If they make it through the knock out, they are the world champs.

The problem with the MLS Cup isn’t that it does or doesn’t crown the right team. It’s that we don’t think it does. We’re used to the team with the best record not winning the World Series, or the NBA title, or the Super Bowl. It happens all the time (far more often then not). But somehow it’s some great tragedy when the SS winner doesn’t also win the Cup. And as long as we continue to make a big deal out of the Supporter’s Shield, we will always doubt the MLS Cup.

The Mariners won 116 games in 2001. No one blames MLB for the fact that nobody cares about our awesome regular season record. We didn’t win in the post season.

We can complain about the MLS Cup or we can accept it. Either way, it’s here to stay.

by Jack Brando on Feb 24, 2011 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Once again

It’s not about eliminating the MLS Cup, it’s about making it better.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Perhaps a lot of "us"

But “we” are hardcore fans, posting on a soccer blog in our free time. I’ve seen these sorts of arguments rage on baseball blogs, and purists/hardcore fans generally want a smaller playoff field with a more meaningful regular season, but, speaking in generalities here, it’s difficult to convince a casual fan that the baseball playoffs aren’t as good at crowning a champion as the regular season, with appeals to playing when it counts, etc.

There’s no way that, say, the World Cup actually crowns the absolute most deserving champion. Some years, it’s probably not close. And it certainly doesn’t come up with the top 32 teams in the world for the finals. Yet it is still massively popular. I know there are those who prefer club football to international football, but at least as far as I can tell, those are not casual soccer fans, but rather soccer fans who spend an awful lot of their time following soccer.

Perhaps an analogy with wine is appropriate. If you are really into wine, you can probably tell the difference between a $50 bottle of wine and a $10 bottle of wine. But most people can’t distinguish the two, so there are a lot more $10 bottles of wine sold than there are $50 bottles of wine. The $10 bottle of wine is more popular.

By putting the emphasis on the playoffs, a league makes itself more accessible to the casual fans. They can spend less time following and feel like they get the majority of the benefit. So they get a $10 bottle of wine instead of a $50 bottle of wine, and that’s a good trade-off for a lot of people who are busy and have other hobbies. The upside for the league is a much broader consumer base and the downside is that they might lose some customers looking for a $50 bottle of wine. But if you did the soccer equivalent of a blind taste test, and showed the typical MLS fan a game between Colorado and FC Dallas or one between LA and RSL, they aren’t going to tell you, based on those two games, which teams are definitely better. You could probably tell the difference, but most folks can’t. So they are just as happy with the lower commitment the playoffs brings even when it doesn’t match up the absolute top teams of the league.

It’s a professional league, so they’re going to do what they expect will make them the most money, which is not always what appeals most to the hardcore fans.

by ubelmann on Feb 24, 2011 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Again, not to beat this point into the ground

But almost everyone of the regular commenters and posters at this site agree that playoffs are, at the very least, here to stay. The problem with these playoffs is that they don’t do a good enough job of allowing the best teams to win. Just consider this: the 2008 Crew were the only SS winner since 2005 to advance as far as the MLS Cup championship game. That’s one of six.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Who are the "best" teams?

It’s not always clear that the SS winner is actually the best team in the league. A lot was made of RSL’s losing record in 2009, but they had a +8 GD as compared to Columbus’ +10 GD, and they were only 9 points below Columbus in the standings. If you add their two playoff games to those totals, RSL is only 3 points below Columbus, and they swap goal differentials. Then RSL went on to have a great 2010 season with largely the same team that won the 2009 MLS Cup. Just looking at the end-of-season standings, one might think it was a terrible injustice, but now that we have additional information, I think it’s entirely plausible to believe that 2009 RSL was a better team than 2009 Columbus, even if that didn’t play out in a small sample of 30 games.

I understand the allure of the regular season, but even a balanced, home-and-home 34-game season this year is just 34 games, and the SS winner won’t necessarily be the best team in the league.

by ubelmann on Feb 24, 2011 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course, they aren't "necessarily" the best team

But what they have done is prove over the course of a long season that they are the team most deserving of the benefit of the doubt. The current playoff system all but eliminates that benefit and turns each game into a coin flip.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I follow.

The top seed in either conference gets the same benefit the top seed in nearly any conference gets. They get to play the worst seed on their side of the bracket. It’s actually similar to the NFL system where you not only get to play the worst seed, you also get a bye while the team you are playing does not.

Second and third play each other and both get a bye. So it definitely pays to win your conference.

And in the NFL the best season winner vs. Super Bowl champion coincides about as often as it does in MLS.

Here’s the last eight years: (Best record / Superbowl)

2003: Patriots (14-2) / Patriots defeat Panthers
2004: Steelers (15-1) / Patriots defeat Eagles
2005: Colts (14-2) / Steelers defeat Seahawks
2006: Chargers (14-2) / Colts defeat Bears
2007: Patriots (16-0) / Giants defeat Patriots
2008: Titans (13-3) / Steelers defeat Cardinals
2009: Colts (14-2) / Saints defeat Colts
2010: Patriots (14-2) / Packers defeat Steelers

The problem, in my opinion, isn’t that the MLS Cup isn’t good enough. It’s that we make too big of deal out of the Supporters Shield. Evey ounce of import we lump on the SS is an ounce off the MLS Cup. Nobody cares that the Titans went 13 and 3 in 2008. So nobody de-legitimizes the Steelers as champs. They simply look at it as the Titans choking.

Like the Mariners choked in 2001. And like the 63-19 Sonics choked in 1994. And like the Columbus Crew choked in 2009.

by Jack Brando on Feb 24, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

We may just have to agree to disagree

A long season is simply the best way to determine teh “best” team. The problem with the MLS Cup playoffs, and is somewhat unique in the world of American playoffs, is that they are very short in comparison to the season. A 16-game NFL season and a 34-game MLS season are capped by a 3- or 4-game playoff series in both cases. You must see the problem with that.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Again, that is only your opinion

And one many of us do not share. Like you said, we will agree to disagree.

by Coug1990 on Feb 24, 2011 11:14 PM PST up reply actions  

actually, I consider it FACT...

to say that as you play more games, you reduce the “variables” and determine who the better teams are.

Comparing NFL to MLS is apples to oranges. NFL plays a highly unbalanced, 16-games season, making playoffs Necessary to determine the best team. The MLS plays 2x as many games and plays a balanced schedule, rendering playoffs far less important to determine the “best” teams.

I just don’t think this is “opinion”

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 9:24 AM PST up reply actions  

The disconnet here is that MLS doesn't have a ton of casual fans.

Not in the same way that baseball or the other major sports in the US do.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

It is my opinion that accumulating the most points doesn't necesarily crown the most deserving champion either

We just saw the NFL crown a champion that was clearly the best team and deserved champion. However, because of an abundance of injuries, they did not have the best regular season record.

I am a fan of playoffs. I know you aren’t based on your comments. Based on Jake’s comments, I am not sure he really is a fan of sports. Let me explain what I mean. I can go watch a minor league baseball game or a college football game, even if they are not great. I enjoy watching the games. I have watched high school soccer games because I enjoy watching the games. They don’t have to be world champs for me to enjoy watching. But, Jake had a comment that watching hockey was a waste of time because he didn’t like the way they crowned a champion. Frankly, I don’t understand that reasoning. I can enjoy Felix pitch whether it is in April or in October.

The game itself, I want it to be played like they play it in the rest of the world. They way MLS crowns a champion should be American. I agree with Ubelman, for MLS to be really successful, they will need to expand to something like 32 teams and have full coverage across the US. After all, I never paid attention to MLS before the Sounders and I would guess most cities would only pay attention if they had an MLS team.

by Coug1990 on Feb 24, 2011 11:12 PM PST up reply actions  

So just so we're clear about what you're saying...

You think 4 games at the end of of a 30-game season is more likely to produce the “best” champion than a 30-game season in which every team plays each other twice? Yeah, we’re going to have to just disagree.

And again, I’m not against playoffs. I’m against the way MLS is running the playoffs.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 8:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Where in my comment did I say what you think I said?

What it comes down to is how you crown a champion. “Best” is subjective. I do not think MLS does a great job of of the way they seed the playoffs. We are in agreement there. So, just because now they do an awful job doesn’t mean that I think they should scrap the entire playoff structure. Someday they will get it correct.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

I thought I have made it clear

that I am not anti-playoffs. It is fact, however, that I would rather see no playoffs than the horrible format MLS currently employs.

What i ultimately want to see is a good playoff system. The current MLS system is nowhere near that…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Frankly, I would like to see only six team make it into the playoffs

The top seed in each conference and the next four wildcard teams. The two conference winners get a bye into the second round.

However, we all know the playoffs are about money and trying to get more people exposed to soccer. After all, the playoffs are one long commercial. Therefore, MLS expanded the playoffs to get more teams involved.

If MLS did what you said and scrapped the playoffs, it would just put the entire playoff system back years.

Eventually, if MLS is to survive, it will need to be a four corners sport with 30 plus teams. The US is too big and too spread out for it to be like the EPL, Serie A, etc. I am guessing there are a lot of MLS fans like myself, never paid attention until there was a local team to watch. So IMO, as MLS grows/expands, so will the ratings.

When there is ultimately the 30 plus teams, then the 10 teams that make the playoffs will deserve it more than the half the teams that will make it now.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 2:41 PM PST up reply actions  

only problem is

the MLS playoffs do not attract “casual fans.”

If I am any example, I am turned off by them…

I am also not saying I want the playoffs scrapped. I am saying this system is so bad we’d be better off without them…

with a balanced schedule, “conference winners” are meaningless and superfluous, and to reward them is asinine.

Like I have said, int he future, this will not be the case, and I recognize that this system is a “placeholder”

That doesn’t mean I have to think its good, or that the Supporters Shield is still the more ""meaningful" trophy

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Where you and I differ is that while the playoff system is not close to perfect

All teams know the rules from day one. That is why it doesn’t bother me as much as it bothers you.

You do not hear the Galaxy complaining on that they were the true champion because they knew from the first day of the season to the last day of the season that the champion is the team that is left standing after the tournament. I am OK with that and while everyone does not agree with me, I am not alone in that way of thinking either.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess

I wouldn’t say it “bothers” me in so much as I have just decided that the MLS Cup isn’t that important. The “team with the target on their backs” in my eyes is the Galaxy, because they were the best team in MLS last year. To me, Colorado is a team that won the equivalent of the Carling Cup… Cup winners, for sure, but not THE team everyone is gunning after, so to speak, like the defending champs in the NFL, or other sports…

It is also why i rank Supporters Shield as the #1 accomplishment for the Sounders this year.

I would certainly like to buy into the idea that the MLS Champions – i.e. the MLS Cup winners – are THAT team, but I can’t, really…

And, to beat the dead horse, this “New” playoff format doesn’t assuage this in the least, in fact it exacerbates it…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

IMO. this is the fairest statement that you have made

You personally like the Supporters Shield and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally like the MLS Cup and there is nothing wrong with that.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 7:12 PM PST up reply actions  

you have taken my comments out of context

I don’t recall ever saying I stopped watching NHL because “I don’t like the way they crown a champion.”

My love affair, and eventual breakup, with the NHL is worthy of a post of its own. There were many factors, not the least of which was rapid over-expansion which diluted the quality of the product on the ice. Another factor was I just reached a point where I realized the regular season was so LONG and ultimately almost meaningless, beyond eliminating just less than half the teams for the Stanley Cup. I actually still enjoy the playoffs, and I think the Olympic hockey tournament is one of the best sporting events I know of (and I hope they don’t screw it up and stop sending the best players to it)

Baseball is its own little world… its a seasonal “pastime” quite literally for me.

And its really faulty logic to compare the NFL season structure to the MLS, and I REALLY wish people would stop doing that. The reason playoffs are necessary in the NFL has NOTHING to do with injuries or “bad luck” in the regular season (luck is an intrinsic part of sports, and cannot be eliminated as a factor, even in a European league-type system of a double round-robin schedule with no playoffs). Playoffs are necessary because of the short season and highly unbalanced schedules. I am fully aware that my very own beloved Seahawks have taken full advantage, time and again, of playing in a weak division. These “weak divisions” factors disappear when you play an MLS-type season…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 9:35 AM PST up reply actions  

How a league crowns a champion is what this thread is really about

You said I took your previous post out of context.

“I used to be a pretty big Canucks NHL fan, but after following the NHL for several years it became plainly obvious to me that sweating out an 82-game regular season was basically a waste of my time. After a while, a regular season win or loss was just a "meh" and if the Canucks didn’t make the playoffs, well, its spring and I can find other things to do.”

Forgive me, but it states that you think the regular season is a waste of time. Why does the NHL have a playoff? To crown a champion.

Playoffs are not necessary in any sport. However, 1) they make a ton of money. 2) They are exciting. 3) They are an accepted way to crown a champion.

They have nothing to do with being necessary.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

there is a lot going on in this debate...

and a lot of it is tangential, which is fine, because that’s can be what makes these debates so interesting.
so here goes:
1) like I’ve said, I could write a rather lengthy post about my falling in love with, then eventual breakup with, the NHL. There were/are a multitude if factors, one of which was the competitive format that the NHL employs. I think the season is too long and the schedule too unbalanced. A shorter season would justify the unbalanced schedule and playoff format; a longer season would call for a more balanced schedule and smaller playoff.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere in these comments, I had mostly prepared a post called “Striking a Balance” which looked at schedule balance, season length, and playoff format in MLS, NFL, NBA, MLB, and the NHL. I even look at motor racing, specifically NASCAR and Formula One. Problem is, it isn’t germane to this blog. I scrapped it and it remains unfinished and unpublished.

2) I am a little confused as to why you have interpreted my only concern as to how a champion is crowned, as you put. My main concern is actually maintaining what i call the “sanctity” of the regular season, and coming up with a format that accomplishes that. The NHL formula, in my estimation, fails to do so, as does the NBA’s. Of course the playoffs in both these Leagues serve the purpose of crowning a champion. My issue is what exactly does the regular season accomplish? Eliminating 14 of 16 teams could be accomplished in less than 82 games…

3) Playoffs actually ARE necessary in many sports, and first and foremost is major college football, which quite astonishingly lacks one!!

Again, the two primary factors involved are Length of Season and Schedule Balance. College football has an extremely short season and extremely poor schedule balance. The NFL is only slightly better. the NHL and MLB have long season but poor schedule balance. The NBA has a long season and actually pretty good schedule balance, with conferences at least.

4) I am not going to tell you how to interpret my writing. Each individual is going to take from this post and these comment threads what they will.

So let me say that I beg to differ with you on your subject statement that this is “really about” crowning a champion. Like I said, this is a pretty complex debate.

I used to think it was absolutely daft to not have playoffs, and I could not figure out why many of the soccer leagues around the world didn’t have any for their league play. It gradually dawned on me as my exposure to the top European leagues grew that it was actually a brilliant concept. the people that argue for no college football playoffs always prattle on about how “every game is a playoff” and “the regular season matters” and this is exactly the reasoning behind the League format of home-and-home, double-round-robin which the MLS will employ this year.

Here’s the thing, I would actually like to believe that the MLS playoffs are the best way to “crown a champion”, but I quite simply CAN NOT given the current League format. This is what you need to understand more than anything else in this thread. I would love it if MLS could come up with a playoff system that WORKED.

The reality is, this one does not!

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 2:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Another Pipe Dream

Really if you take away playing a lower seed as an advantage, the only way to give a higher seed advantage is to give them more home games in a series. Even the away goal rule doesn’t provide that much of an advantage for the higher seed (my opinion, no statistical base). So the options to provide an advantage for a higher seed are: have just one-off games at higher seed’s stadium, have three game series with two games at the higher seeds stadium and one at the lower’s (and so on with more games), or format a group stage where higher seed hosts more games. Reducing the round to one-offs would abbreviate the tournament even further; three game series would look clunky with the rest of the tournament being one-offs, and group stages are plan ‘un-amerikan.’ So these really don’t work.

Currently the only round in contention for me is the difference between the quarterfinals (conference semifinals) and semifinals (conference finals), because it both makes the playoff format seem clunky as well as only providing the higher seed an advantage in the semis (other than playing a lower seed). My idea would be to award the two conference champions at the end of the regular season. These trophies would represent both being the best in your conference over the entire season as well as a spot in the CCL, which for the most part they do now. This would provide a regular season reward as well as magically eliminate the possibility of an opposite conference champion. Now with these two trophies already doled out MLS wouldn’t have to worry about wildcards wining crossover trophies and could fix the clunky format by making the one-off conference final a home-and-home semifinal like it should be.

Wait, What? You’re removing the advantage for the higher seed in the semis as well now! Well for me it’s either provide an advantage in both the quarterfinals and semifinals for the higher seeds or none at all. This way, besides possibly playing a lower seed, there is no advantages for any team going into the playoffs, besides not having to play a play in game. I think it also makes the regular season more rewarding. The teams at the top of the conference are fighting for the conference trophy and a spot in the CCL, followed by fighting to not have to play the play in game, followed by not having to play the play in game on the road, followed by just plain making it in the playoffs.

Small note: More teams will join MLS, conferences will stay, the league will want to use the playoffs to grow rivalries, and with an unbalanced schedule seeding in the playoffs will become fairer.

by Kix on Feb 24, 2011 12:32 PM PST reply actions  

One addition

If you make the first tiebreaker regular-season point total, you’ve suddenly created a system where regular season really matters, while still allowing for a relatively wide open playoff system.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 24, 2011 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

One thing that is currently missing in this argument is that MLS really is a parity league

For example, in the EPL there is a big difference between the eight place team and the first place team. In MLS, there is not a huge difference between the first and eighth place team, so there will be more upsets.

by Coug1990 on Feb 24, 2011 11:23 PM PST reply actions  

^^^^This

If SS winners were consistently running away with the points race (80+ a season) then it might be different, but last year there was a mere 13 points between the Gals and the Earthquakes. Mathematically that is a difference of 5 games.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 25, 2011 8:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Let's keep running that math...

The difference between SS and No. 8 was the equivalent of 5 games? Ok, we can use this to illustrate the point…

The season is only 30 games long so 5 games, when translated to a 162-game season is more like … 27 games in baseball. Or in other words, it’s the difference between a 100-win team and 73-win team. Last I checked, 73-win teams didn’t make the playoffs very often.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, North American soccer editor SB Nation and of course follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 25, 2011 8:24 AM PST up reply actions  

AND...

Manchester United still loses matches to Wolves, and Tottenham, fresh of a 1-0 win in the San Siro, lose to Blackpool…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Feb 25, 2011 9:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I do agree MLS has to many teams in the playoffs

But, it is a money issue. More playoff games equals more money. Is it fair, of course not. But, sports is not fair. Some day MLS will get the playoff structure correct. Today is not that day. But, I am still a fan of a playoff system, just not this sytem.

by Coug1990 on Feb 25, 2011 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

I never disagreed we had too many teams in the playoffs

But using your previous arguments that 4 games is not a fair way to decide a champion, who is to say that a team like San Jose just didn’t hit a rough patch along the way during the season and fall behind? Could just as easily happen to the SS winner in the playoffs.

Or who is to say that LA didn’t really hot for 4-5 games mid season and put themselves far enough ahead of the other teams? Its no different than a team getting really hot for 4-5 games in the playoffs and winning the whole thing.

The point is, the proponents of using only the SS to determine a champion (And I know you have said you aren’t anti playoff) are saying the performance over the course of a season should say who is best, but the standings say otherwise. Most of the teams in the playoffs have close enough records that there is no real “definite” champion. Pitting them head to head in a do or die format is what determines the best of the group.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 25, 2011 10:54 AM PST up reply actions  

"Could just as easily happen to the SS winner in the playoffs."

No, it couldn’t. There are just so many flaws in this reasoning that I don’t even know where to begin.

You’re entitled to your opinion about the playoffs, really. You are. But you’re just wrong in making any assertion that a playoff isn’t more susceptible to random chance than a 30 game regular season.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Please explain

Instead of just stating an opinion as a fact.

I am listening.

by B-Lot tailgater on Feb 25, 2011 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

You would like me to explain basic math and logic to you?

Because that’s what this boils down to.

The larger sample you have the more reliable it is. This isn’t an opinion; this is basic statistics. You can debate the merits of each method of determination if you’d like, but I am pretty sure the question of whether 30 is larger than 4 has kind of been settled.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 25, 2011 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

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