Roster Compliance Day - What Cuts to Make?
Today is the day when the Sounders can only have a maximum of 30 players under contract and must be under the salary cap. Twenty of the slots are for Senior Roster spots; those count towards the cap.
Slots 21-24 can be players of any age, but essentially make the league minimum. Generation Adidas players are in this category as well. Slots 25-30 can only be used for players under the age of 25 and are signed to a deal worth only $32,500.
The three different slots, combined with contractual situations of Richard Martinez and #TheTrialist, make the cuts not just about talent this year, and for the near future, but also requires working the spreadsheet and phone to the league offices. Some players may not like the idea of taking a pay-cut.
The cut list could be built in many ways. Below is just one example.
First, I'm saying the #TheTrialist makes it and when he does they'll use a Discovery Claim and Senior slot on him.
Second, I don't think anyone is obviously injured enough to justify using the Injured List. So, in these assumptions I'm not going to put someone on the IL just to keep them.
Third, I think Roger Levesque isn't the non-League right back. He's a utility guy and will be in the 18 quite a bit. So either Zach Scott or Richard Martinez has to be seen as the 2nd RB.
Let's look at the 19 Locks then;
The Designated Players - Blaise Nkufo, Fredy Montero, Alvaro Fernandez
The Pricey Talents - Steve Zakuani, Nate Jaqua, Kasey Keller
Other Starters - Leo Gonzalez, Osvaldo Alonso, Jeff Parke, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado, James Riley, Brad Evans, Erik Friberg
Not-quite Starters - O'Brian White, Patrick Ianni, Michael Tetteh (GA), Mike Fucito, Danny Earls
#TheTrialist
That's 16 Senior slots and 3 from 21-24.
Which four other players would I put into the Senior slots?
Tyson Wahl - his ability to play both left back and center back while providing a left foot with some accuracy on distant set-plays has him make my cut.
Roger Levesque - ForMidFender is the ultimate utility guy, plus he has a great 'stache.
Terry Boss - because I don't think Seattle's hopes at a run in CCL and Open Cup play can rest on a rookie's shoulders.
Taylor Graham or Zach Scott - In ways it really depends on Richard Martinez making the team or not. One of these two is going to be on the team or Juan Cruz would still be here.
The old Developmental Players - one to fill if Danny Earls is in this slot. I think with his pro experience he has to be. The one other spot this section gets really tricky. Because I would expect it to be needed for either, and maybe both, of Martinez and Neagle.
I expect that if the team can get the right deal worked out they will keep Martinez, but they'll probably need to get him in this price, just due to cost of living changes and his change from being a starter on a good team at a lower level to back-up on a good team at a higher level.
Reserve Players - 4-6 slots
David Estrada and Miguel Montano are both going to be on the team, but may have to take small pay cuts to stay. Though I could see a use of allocation dollars to offset the loss in pay.
Servando Carrasco is the only non-Alonso/Levesque as a CDM
Lamar Neagle probably takes the opportunity to come home. Trialists don't stay with a club that long to be cut. If they have to offer more money one could swap he and Earls.
Let's pause a moment, because that's 28. There is a thought that Seattle will only keep 28 so that they could get 70k$ in Allocation. While a 3rd keeper is a need do you really think they want cut any of the above players?
But, Seattle doesn't need to sign the 3rd keeper yet. So maybe both Josh Ford and Bryan Meredith are asked to stay on and one slot is left open for the player who wins the role at the Cascadia Summit.
Finally, Seattle could either fill that last slot with the fourth keeper or keep Prieto around.
What it really comes down to is #TheTrialist, Martinez and Neagle and how their contracts work out. Those players will determine if players like Pat Noonan, Graham, Scott are still on the team.
Update: As the abilities of Estrada, White and Fucito probably force Noonan out, and the abilities of Martinez, Earls, and Wahl limit Graham & Scott; Michael Seamon is getting squezzed by TheTrialist, Erik Friberg and maybe Prieto.
Here's a table, with LINKS!, to Joshua Mayers and Stanley Holmes to show how little consensus there is. Each reporter gets compliant in a different way, and I forced myself off the Ford or Meredith and Graham or Scott ledge.
| Clark | Mayers | Holmes |
| Seamon | Wahl | Noonan |
| Noonan | Ford | Estrada |
| Graham | Prieto | Scott |
| Meredith | Martinez | Trialist |
| to 28 | to 28 | to 28 |
| Prieto | Trialist | Prieto |
| Scott | Jaqua to IL | Ford |
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I think the additions of Friberg and TheTrialist really limit Seamon's chances
Although they could keep Seamon over Prieto
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Do you know anything about TheTrialist that we don't?
I think he will make it too, but I’m not sure I’m quite as confident as you are.
The other experience we've had with Trialists is that they got named just a day later
In this case not so much. He appeared in two games.
Besides that not much.
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well seamon is still in seattle
So idk if he gets cut.
But I feel like we are going to have surprises coming our way.
Both goalkeepers are still here for another week at least so we won’t hear a decision on them.
One thing I can see them doing is possibly trading some of the senior players. Idk who. But to relieve cap space.
by Sandra_R on Mar 1, 2011 7:38 AM PST via mobile reply actions
also can you leave a senior roster spot open?
If they are planning on getting marcus this summer then they are going to need a senior roster spot and cap space
by Sandra_R on Mar 1, 2011 7:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, but the cap space counts as a min. salary guy
But there’s no need to do that. A team shouldn’t leave the space open now, as there would be months for one to be opened up via trade or Injured List move.
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As for the young goalkeepers I mentioned that
All 34 were in Seattle as of yesterday. As I tried to make very clear, much of who gets cut depends on who gets signed and how. If the team can’t reach agreements with TheTrialist, Martinez and Neagle that’s three other players that stay.
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Heres my roster as of tomorrow morning
1-Keller
2-Riley
3-Hurtado
4-Parke
5-Gonzales
6-Zakuani
7-Alonso
8-Evans
9-Fernandez
10-Montero
11-NKufo
12-Ianni
13-White
14-Levesque
15-Boss
16-Friberg
17- Wahl
18-Graham
19-Jaqua
20- Trialist
21-Fucito
22-Earls
23-Tetteh
24-Neagle
25-Montano
26- Estrada
27-Carrasco
28-Prieto
29-Ford/Meridith winner
I see Seamon starting the season on IR not that he is too injured to play but I dont think he has won a spot. Wouldnt be surprised to see Scott to stick instead of trialist either.
Cuts
Noonan
Martinez
Scott
Meridith/Ford loser
seattle
wouldn’t cut both Martinez and Scott though. Its either one or the other.
my thought was
I see Levesque as the backup RB as of now. Also Parke can play there in a pinch pushing Ianni into the starting lineup at CB. But you may be right and they keep one of them and push Jaqua onto the IR or in place of the trialist.
by Colin Johnson on Mar 1, 2011 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
Ianni, Evans, Parke
probably even Wahl, Earls
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Here's What I've Got
1-Keller
2-Riley
3-Hurtado
4-Parke
5-Gonzales
6-Zakuani
7-Alonso
8-Evans
9-Fernandez
10-Montero
11-NKufo
12-Ianni
13-White
14-Levesque
15-Boss
16-Friberg
17- Wahl
18-Graham
19-Jaqua
20- Earls
21-Fucito
22-Seamon
23-Tetteh
24-Neagle
25-Montano
26- Estrada
27-Carrasco
28-Martinez
29-Ford/Meridith winner
Cuts:
Noonan, Scott, Prieto, Meridith/Ford Loser
Seamon got pretty good minutes last season, and seemed to impress. He may start on IR to give us another open Roster spot to start the season. In that case, I would fill his spot with #theTrialist probably, but since I don’t know who he actually is that’s a hard one.
heres mine
1. Nkufo
2. Montero
3. Zakuani
4. Alonso
5. Evans
6. Fernandez
7. Gonzalez
8. Hurtado
9. Parke
10. Riley
11. Keller
12. Ianni
13. Boss
14. Jaqua
15. White
16. Friburg
17. Levesque
18. Wahl
19. Graham
20. Scott
21. Fucito
22. Tetteh
23. Seamon
24. Prieto
25. Neagle
26. Montano
27. Estrada
28. Carrasco
29. Earls
30. Meredith/ford
Cut: noonan, thetrialist, Martinez and Meredith or ford
This why we got plenty of depth in all spots. Although Martinez could make it instead of Scott.
28: jaqua to IR and Prieto or Seamon
why=way
should poof read before hitting post.
Pretty dead on
with your roster I’d say. No sense in me posting it again. Although, I do think Jaqua starts the season on the IL. And if that’s the case then keep Noonan (I’ve got a feeling about him this year). And they can always IL him when Jaqua comes back if he isn’t working out.
I'll jump in
1-Keller
2-Gonzalez
3-Hurtado
4-Parke
5-Riley
6-Zak
7-Alonso
8-Evans
9-Fernandez
10-Montero
11-Nkufo
12-Friberg
13-White
14-Ianni
15-Boss
16-Jaqua
17-Martinez
18-Wahl
19-TheTrialist
20-Graham
21-Fucito
22-Levesque
23-Tetteh
24-Earls
25-Seamon
26-Montano
27-Estrada
28-Carrasco
29-Ford
IF 30-Neagle
Goodbye Prieto, Neagle, Scott, and Noonan if they don’t want to put him on IL.
28? Jaqua to IL.
This sucks. I’m glad I don’t have to make the decisions.
$70K in allocation?
There is a thought that Seattle will only keep 28 so that they could get 70k$ in Allocation.
Was there a press release that I missed. I didn’t know that was the motivation to get to 28. How long to we have to stay at 28 to get the allocation? One day? Do we have to play the first game with 28 on the roster?
I don’t think anyone is obviously injured enough to justify using the Injured List.
From what I’ve seen in previous seasons, we sometimes put folks on the IL that have nothing wrong with them. Ljungberg comes to mind right before the trade to Chicago (though he may not have been placed on the IL, just didn’t travel with the team). Anyway, there were others.
If we have someone on the IL, do they count against the 28 to qualify for the extra allocation dollars?
IL
players do not count against the roster limit of 28/30.
I believe the sigi by saying that they’ll go with 28 players was to motivate them by making them think that there will be 2 spots less to get them to play better.
We covered the allocation thing
I would assume that it would be for “majority of year” or something.
Ljungberg was not on the IL, he just wasn’t playing. Fucito in 2009 was healthy but on IL.
Allocation dollars are ONLY if the final 2 slots of the 25-30 are unfilled. U-25, tiny salary players.
There may also be motivation to have one of those open so that an HGP can be signed this season.
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Ahh
I did read that article, it looks like someone added that fact after I read it though. So, if I’m understanding correctly, it looks like if we only have 28 on the roster, we can still use the full cap space on them and get an additional $70K in allocation. The $70K is equivalent to the salary dollars that would have been spent on spots 29 and 30. However it becomes “free money” when those spots are left open because you can still use the full cap amount on the 28 players you did keep.
Another way to look at it is a net loss of $140K if you go with 30 on the roster instead of 28. Given that, I’d expect that almost all teams will be trying to get down to 28. The letter of the law on how long they have to be at 28 is likely to be twisted as well if many teams are doing this. It would be interesting to know exactly how it’s worded.
by K61 on Mar 1, 2011 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
As for the $70k thing
We’ve been talking about it for awhile now, basically ever since the debate over how many players the Sounders would keep and when the roster rules came out. It’s clearly spelled out in the league’s new roster rules.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Mar 1, 2011 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
Here's the actual language:
“■Clubs may elect to leave up to two of these roster spots (25-30) vacant and use $35,000 for each empty spot as allocation money.”
So it’s not really a $140K swing, as the league is not giving you extra money for leaving those slots open. You just get to use the money not spent on those slots as allocation dollars. At least, that’s how I interpret it.
So it's like allocation money
except we provide it to ourselves, instead of the league giving it to us?
It would be good to get confirmation on this, if it actually is a $140k swing, or if it’s just “Spend your $70k for two players, or spend your $70k as allocation money.”
Non-Senior players (excepting GA and maybe HGP) are paid by the team
Allocation comes from the League
I don’t know if that answers your question or confirms anything. As I have never seen this interpretted as a 140k swing.
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It's not a $140k swing...
On one hand, the roughly $70k the sounders save by not having two players on the roster is real money. On the other, the $70k the sounders get in allocation money is more theoretical money the team can use to pay down the salary budget. They are kind of apples and oranges.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Mar 1, 2011 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
One point of clarification
Only senior roster spots, that is 1-20, count against your cap. So spots 29 and 30 are min 32.5k guys that never would hit your cap, but If you don’t fill them you get 70k allocation to use on your 1-20 guys.
Allocation can be used on any player
So say a Richard Martinez signs as a 21-24 for 42k, the team could give him 25k allocation
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Excellent Point!
Ah the power of allocation.
How does this work in practice?
The roster site lists the following uses for allocation dollars:
■To sign players new to MLS (that is, a player who did not play in MLS during the previous season).
■To re-sign an existing MLS player, subject to League approval.
■To "buy-down" a player’s salary budget charge below the League maximum of $335,000.
■In connection with the exercise of an option to purchase a player’s rights or the extension of a player’s contract for the second year provided the player was new to MLS in the immediately prior year.
Martinez obviously fits as a player new to the MLS. How would the other 21-30 players fit into this? It seems they would have to be re-signed and have that contract approved by the league. I am wondering how easy/hard that is to do.
We don't know much more than that
Teams don’t talk about Allocation.
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Same as the first, Mr Durden
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.
HGPs
I also remember reading somewhere that HGPs don’t count against the cap and you can have an unlimited number of them on your roster. Is that inaccurate?
by K61 on Mar 1, 2011 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
Clarification
HGPs do not count against the cap.
They do count against roster limits.
A team can sign as many as they want in a season. Say a sign and transfer to Europe?
Easiest way to think of them is as GA lite
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Kind of right
You can have two HGPs signed to Generation Adidas contracts, which would mean they don’t count against the cap. Beyond that, it’s more of a guessing game, but it does appear you can have as many HGPs as you want, but beyond two they’d fit into the roster like any other player making similar money with the same age restrictions.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Mar 1, 2011 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
Two things
1. I think it is more likely that Jaqua is traded than placed on the IL. I like him and think he’s valuable, but White and The Trialist make him “expendable.” Move him to free up cap space and (hopefully) pick up allocation dollars that can be used in the summer window.
2. Alluded to by many above, but they’ll probably drop to 30 tomorrow for roster compliance, then use the Cascadia Summit and Colorado matches to make their decisions on dropping to 28.
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Why
would the trialist which looks like to be a midfield make Jaqua expendable?
Because the belief
is that he’s a relatively high-level player…. crappy opponent or not, you got to be impressed with a guy who gets an assist in his first start for the team.
I’d also question if Jaqua isn’t somewhat injury prone (his career is littered with niggling stuff and bigger stuff like knee injuries). I like the way he plays, but I’ve been concerned for two seasons now that he may not be able to hold up.
The question was not
why do you think TheTrialist is good, it is why do TheTrialist’s abilities have any bearing on Jaqua, when TheTrialist plays midfield, and Jaqua is a target forward?
We're well-stocked at forward?
Just throwing that out there. While the trialist may be a mid, he may also have some forward skills, making him a utility player. Totally just guessing.
I think my thinking was
based on the admittedly minimal info we have, is TheTrialist plays wide right, allowing Fucito to get his minutes at forward. Which makes things a bit crowded up front.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.
I could just as easily be totally wrong
We’ll just have to wait for him to be unmasked.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.
Also
from a salary cap, rather than line-up, perspective, if they really like TheTrialist, they may need to free up space to sign him. Jaqua may be occupying that space.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.
There is also the fact that Jaqua has a proven record of producing in MLS, White is still all theory. I expect him to kick ass this year, but if I were a betting man I’m not sure I’d be willing to go all in on him over Jaqua, especially with Nkufo retiring after this year.
Not sure I'm following you here?
Jaqua’s best season(s) in MLS are behind at this point. It doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a couple more stellar seasons ahead of him. But in the past two years, Jaqua has proven he’s a good distributor/target guy, but goal scoring remains a question mark. Are you seeing something different in him at this point or just feeling that if (that’s a big if) the injuries are behind him, he’s poised for a return to form?
Goal scoring is a question mark?
2009 wasn’t that long ago
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Jaqua went 7 and 7 in 2009. Are you really saying his goal scoring is a question mark? That’s better than everyone but Zak and Montero last year. So I’m not sure what you are saying. I think that the question about health is a valid one, but I think his track record in MLS is much, much better than White’s. Again, I’d like to carry both, but I’m not sure I’d bet on White right now.
Fair point
I’m also thinking about the fact that Sigi has seemingly been trying to prepare fans for the possibility that some vets may get cut, not because they aren’t productive, but because their salary demands are much higher than a given prospect AND are on a short track to the end of their careers?
We weren’t exactly a goal scoring machine in 2009, so 7/7 wasn’t shabby at all.
Given what we saw with Marshall and Vagenas
I kinda feel like we would’ve traded him or tried in some way to get something for him rather than cut. Especially someone like him who still likely retains a lot of skill/value. If he gets good minutes this season I wouldn’t be surprised to see his goalscoring/assisting of ’09 again.
by chrisperry1983 on Mar 1, 2011 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
My qualms about Jaqua are the opposite. He’s a competent goal scorer by MLS standards, but he’s a mediocre target man. His headers don’t tend to be extremely dangerous either in distribution to other attackers or on goal. He doesn’t wall off space as effectively as one would expect from a player his size. His vision and passing are decent but the technique is sometimes awkward. All these things are what make Nkufo the first string option.
That said, given perfectly valid questions concerning White’s performance and the team’s underperformance in the absence of a target man (also Nkufo’s age, Jaqua’s health/… etc.) it would make sense to remain 3 deep at that position.
Hence, IL is feasible, but otherwise I’d make a solid bet all three will be with the team.
eight goals makes a goal scorer
I’d agree, he was a very serviceable forward for us in 2009, particularly considering the circumstances (new team). I guess we just see this guy in very different ways. I see him as a good target guy with strong distribution skills…. some of the best in MLS. I do not see him as a reliable goal scorer anymore, as I believe he’s lost a half-step of separation. I hope he proves me wrong…. I never mind eating crow when it comes to my home team!
by swansuite on Mar 1, 2011 10:11 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I know we're talking about MLS
but don’t forget his 5 goals in the open cup last year.
by agtk on Mar 1, 2011 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We've been told to not expect an announcement until tomorrow AM
Also, while Compliance Day is important it isn’t a final day.
Players can be signed after it. Players can still be in camp, if unsigned.
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Mayers reporting that Earls and Martinez are no longer training with the team.
That’s surprising to me. Earls seemed like a virtual lock, if not a certain one, and I figured Martinez at least had a really good shot at being worked in somewhere. Maybe Earls is going on the Injured List…?
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Guess so.
I was a little excited about Earls to be honest. I have a bit of an Irishman bias, but I liked everything I’d read and seen. Thought he’d have a chance to be Leo’s successor, though I guess that will probably be more Tetteh’s role in the future. Shame it didn’t work out.
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I was telling Dave I had a feeling Earls was on the way out.
This was part of the reason why.
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…shows how little we can infer from side comments on a couple days of training. That, or injury cost him his chance to win a spot.
This seems to make Wahl a lock and possibly Scott as well. Not sure how I feel about the latter. Graham is probably safe as well.
I wonder if this signals the way the team will treat potential newcomers at other spots on the field.
#TheTrialist Confirmed!
Via Mayers:
Mauro Rosales (MF), 30 yr old from Argentina. Previously played for River Plate and Ajax
Definitely
That is certainly possible, though Mayers didn’t state that he is no longer with the team in his report re: Earls & Martinez.
he
would be fighting for a senior spot though.
unless
there is no age limit on the protected list #21-24.
Looks like he is joining the team.
http://www.prostamerika.com/2011/03/01/olympic-medalist-training-with-sounders-38023/
“Sounders FC Release:
When training resumes on Wednesday at Starfire, Sounders FC will be joined by Argentine midfielder Mauro Rosales, an invitee who most recently was with Querétaro of the Mexican Primera División.
Rosales has played previously for the Argentina National Team, Newell’s Old Boys, River Plate and Holland’s Ajax. He was a member of the gold medal team at the 2004 Olympic Games. Rosales first trained with Seattle last week in Florida.?
He
is still unsigned but joined the training camp.
not necessarily signed...
… but then, if not signed but still named, it would be a fair assumption that Seattle went ahead and used a discovery claim, and therefore a signing is likely?
I would say you are on it there
and welcome back
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Jeremiah is working on a post about today's announcements
We got the same email that Mayers did.
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it's up
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Mar 1, 2011 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Here is where the Sounders stand now...
32 remaining:
Goalkeepers (4): Terry Boss, Josh Ford^, Kasey Keller, Bryan Meredith^
Defenders (10): Leo Gonzalez, Taylor Graham, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado, Patrick Ianni, Jeff Parke, James Riley, Zach Scott, Michael Tetteh, Tyson Wahl, Roger Levesque
Midfielders (12): Osvaldo Alonso, Servando Carrasco^, David Estrada, Brad Evans, Alvaro Fernandez, Erik Friberg, Mike Fucito, Miguel Montano, Jonathan Prieto*, Mauro Rosales*, Michael Seamon, Steve Zakuani
Forwards (6): Nate Jaqua, Fredy Montero, Lamar Neagle*, Blaise Nkufo, Pat Noonan, O’Brian White
Predicted cuts= Noonan, Estrada, Ford
IL= Seamon or Jaqua
by James Owen Gallagher on Mar 1, 2011 1:43 PM PST reply actions
actually...
should say
Predicted cuts= Noonan, Seamon, Ford
IL= Jaqua
that takes the roster to 28
by James Owen Gallagher on Mar 1, 2011 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Updated predicted roster 3/2/11
29 + 1 IR:
Goalkeepers (3): Terry Boss, Kasey Keller, Bryan Meredith^
Defenders (10): Leo Gonzalez, Taylor Graham, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado, Patrick Ianni, Jeff Parke, James Riley, Zach Scott, Michael Tetteh, Tyson Wahl, Roger Levesque
Midfielders (10): Osvaldo Alonso, Servando Carrasco, David Estrada, Brad Evans, Alvaro Fernandez, Erik Friberg, Mike Fucito, Miguel Montano, Mauro Rosales^(#TheTrialist), Steve Zakuani
Forwards (6): Nate Jaqua, Fredy Montero, Lamar Neagle, Blaise Nkufo, Pat Noonan, O’Brian White
On the Bubble= Rosales, Meredith, Ford
Predicted cuts= Ford
IR= Seamon
by James Owen Gallagher on Mar 2, 2011 7:35 PM PST up reply actions
here's our story on #thetrialist and cuts
http://www.sounderatheart.com/2011/3/1/2023432/thetrialist-mauro-rosales-Seattle-sounders
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