Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Sounders 2011 Tactical preview part 1: the "W" defense.

Osvaldo Alonso, voted the team's most important player by teammates and supporters alike after 2010, figures to be the key man in the defense as the Sounders pursue bigger and better silverware in 2011

As I have previously written, 3-defender systems have an odd place in contemporary football, often considered obsolete, they nonetheless have the tendency to pop up again and see success with certain teams..  The key to understanding 3-at the back systems is that they are actually 5-defender systems, as in all but the rarest of cases the system utilizes wingbacks, who are evolved from fullbacks and are best described as wide midfielders with responsibility to cover the defensive wings - as compared to most wide midfielders who are usually primarily attacking players.  The left and right defenders of the trio at the back play deeper and narrower than fullbacks, and thus the formation is generally described as having 3 center backs.  

There are those who claim that these formations are more tactically interesting, but I actually beg to differ, and this is admittedly because, as I see it, teams looking to use a 3-defender formation are more often than not looking to play more defensively, and want to use three center backs to provide additional cover.  It also helps to understand in almost all cases, 4-defender systems are a misnomer as well, and the nomenclature can be quite counterintuitive.

Teams that are said to employ "4 across the back" almost always employ a deep-lying central defensive midfielder, what I like to call the "ACB" midfielder (Auxiliary Center Back) and it can be said that these are 5-defender systems as well.  Additionally, fullbacks play higher than center backs, and have important roles to play in helping provide width to the attack and make overlapping runs with midfielders.  On the whole, both back-3 and back-4 formations essentially use 5 defensive players, with either 3 or 2 center backs, who are the dedicated "out and out" defenders in the system.

It actually goes beyond that, with regards to the flexibility and adaptability of "back-4" systems.  More often than not, they are designed to always keep 3 defenders back, and in a back-4 system that 3rd man can be the CDM or either fullback, depending on the game-play situation.  At the end of the day, I feel like the tactical nuances of the back-4 are overlooked and underrated, and I would consider a more accurate description of the approach to be the "'W' defense".

Star-divide

[The Sounders "W" defense.  With the fullbacks pushing into the attack and generally playing higher than the centerbacks, and the CDM dropping deep to play "sweeper" when necessary, the average position of the back 5 players takes on more of a "W" shape ]

The key to the "W" defense in many cases is the CDM; I don't feel like it is a stretch to say the CDM on many teams is the most important man in the pitch.  In the case of the Sounders, that man is Osvaldo Alonso, and after the 2010 season both his fellow players, and the Supporters, felt as though he was the team's most valuable player.

Last year we saw Sigi settle on a system that was best described as having two defensive midfielders; once Alonso settled back in after injury he and Nathan Sturgis played together in the preponderance of the Sounders competitive matches from mid-July onward.  This season, from all indicators, we can expect to see a return to what we saw a lot of in season one, with a "stacked" central midfield of Alonso and more of a box-to-box or link-up CM in front of him.  In this case, we can expect the Sounders to run the "W" defense.  In this regard, 2011 may very much be Ozzie Alonso's year.

Looking elsewhere in the "W", once again a lot will be asked of James Riley, as steady a presence in the Sounders lineup as anyone else; he has in fact been a stalwart at the right back position.  I would go so far as to say his absence from the lineup for any considerable length of time due to injury would constitute a crisis.  

Center back will see three experienced, proven MLS players.  Jhon Kennedy Hurtado was, along with Alonso, the linchpin to the Inaugural year defense that co-lead the League with Houston for fewest goals allowed, and for his trouble he was one of three nominees for defender of the year in '09.  When he was lost to injury in May of last year, the position was thrown into a bit of a crisis, with Tyrone Marshall suddenly appearing not up to the task, despite a solid Inaugural year in his own right.  Patrick Ianni was employed as a CDM for a time - which gives reason to believe he can and will be used there again.  Jeff Parke, thrown into action after a long layoff, took a while to get his feet under him but once he did, and his pairing with Ianni took hold, it turned out to be a solid combo.

It was the left back position which was relatively unsettled in that Inaugural year, and the position was a bit of a revolving door - even featuring Nathan Sturgis at times - until Leo Gonzalez arrived mid-season, and provided an attacking spark that wasn't necessarily represented on the score-sheet.  Last season he could be seen to put himself into some panic positions - never good for a defender - and on the whole wasn't as solid a defender as his opposite fullback, Riley.  There is an expectation that his spot will be challenged, with Tetteh providing a more marauding, "wingback"-style alternative - a useful tool to have in the kit.

Additional depth comes from Wahl, who can fill in at CB and LB, and Scott, who will primarily be the backup RB.  Taylor Graham is still around and will primarily be a reserve.  Roger Levesque also looks to be an occasional possibility at right back.

I should probably pause to point out what I consider an important point in the nomenclature I am using.  I prefer to reserve the term "wingback" for the hybridized fullback/winger position that has sprung up in 3-defender systems.  I would rather not use it to describe particularly aggressive fullbacks in back-4 systems, keeping in mind that pushing high up the pitch into the attack and generally being a marauding presence on the wings is all in the job description of a fullback.

There are extremes.  Barca has demonstrated a hybrid back 3/4 system, predicated upon the willingness of their fullbacks Alves and Maxwell to go forward and the CDM Busquets to drop back as an ACB.  This is where the "W" defense comes from, at least contemporarily.  With Busquets as almost a "sweeper" forming a back three with Pique and Puyol,  Alves and Maxwell could be considered wingbacks.  With Busquets as a CDM, and Alves and Maxwell in a more defensive position - we would see a more usual back 4 with the CDM as a 5th defender of sorts.  In all, the average position would be a "W".

The shape of the midfield has a big effect on fullback positioning.  In a diamond, like we have seen at Chelsea, the average position of the fullbacks is actually higher than the CDM.  This is because the diamond lacks wide midfield roles and it is incumbent on the fullbacks to push high to provide width to the attack.  This is why we see the marauding runs of the likes of Bosingwa and Cole with Mikel playing as an ACB.

In the Sounders case, it may not be quite this extreme, but we do know that high pressure from the wingers - or outside mids - has been a key to the Sounders attack, and this - along with the more withdrawn role of Fredy Montero - has meant that the formation may be closer to 4-2-3-1 than 4-4-2 (particularly with the two CDM's used last year).  These high wingers mean that there is space in behind, and the fullbacks are the most likely choice to fill that space.  

Alonso will certainly be free to roam, however, and is best left unleashed to provide cover where he needs to.  The descriptions I am using are really about average positions, as compared to nominal starting positions.  They are what you would see on a heat map, as compared to a lineup sheet.  It is probably best to remember that it is somewhat of an abstraction to talk about defining shapes in soccer, but for the sake of calling it something, I call it the "W" defense.

Comment 31 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Interesting Idea, but...

…I’m not sure this is something we’ve seen in the Sounders to any regularity. Sure, our FBs push up when possible and get into the attack, but Ozzie doesn’t seem to drop in with any regularity. He seems to sit in midfield, and like the other CM, take the space in front of him when possible.

Perhaps you’re advocating for more use of this system, in which case, I could agree with the approach against certain sides who may expose SSFC on the counter; i.e. LA Galaxy. You don’t want Donovan running at your two CBs unprotected, so I can see an argument for asking Ozzie to drop in more when the FBs are attacking.

But to your point, putting a name on something so fluid is a hard task. In general, this is a very small tactical change that can be asked of our CDM on the fly as the competition requires.

by Advocate10 on Mar 11, 2011 8:46 AM PST reply actions  

I'd disagree

If a back goes up, Alonso is usually the guy to fall back. When there is no need for him to fall back he obviously goes forward. It’s more reactive than proactive.

by TheTank123 on Mar 11, 2011 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

yes

Which is why I say this is more a description of average position, as you would obtain from a heat map, than how you would describe it on a lineup sheet.

The CDM was born when the likes of Makelele were used to shut down opposing CAM’s, trequartistas, or 2nd/striker/playmakers, and it has stuck around for not only that but also to facilitate the “reactive” nature of covering for advancing fullbacks, or even CB’s who move forward on set pieces.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Kudos

This is the kind of analysis we need more of. I just can’t get enough. +1! Please post more pieces like this and soccermetrics type stuff. Thanks!

by Cerebillum Medbillsolutions on Mar 11, 2011 9:41 AM PST reply actions  

To reference eminem

This is what we do

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Mar 11, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

DCU 2007

Played a 3-5-2 that could be considered recklessly attacking. When you play Benny and Fred as your ouside middies then you know it’s not going to be a dull, “park the bus” kind of game.

by Karlito Vargas on Mar 11, 2011 10:44 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I absoltuely disagree

I would say just the opposite, but there are ALWAYS notable exceptions, which makes generalizations inherently pointless…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I honestly have no idea how we got to this point

I think I was replying to a different comment or something, but the above point I was TRYING to make was that I DO believe that that, more often than not, “back three” systems are utilized to provide a spare man at the back, and thus provide extra cover. There are notable exceptions. You have done a VERY aggressive job of pointing that out.

this is what happens when you post comments while trying to work ;-)

I’m pretty unclear as to what “stereotype” I am perpetuating. I’m not entirely sure at what point I stated that “back three” means “park the bus”.

I am extremely confused and alarmed by this debate, to be honest. Those that know me well are quite familiar with my penchant to debate tactics, i just feel like this particular “debate” is just the equivalent of two people in a loud bar who aren’t even sure what the other is saying.

The whole point of this was to reveal what I consider to be the tactical nuance of many contemporary “back 4” formations, and how the “back 4”, like the "back 3’ is more often that not a bit of a misnomer. I have clearly touched a nerve with you and for that i am sorry, but I’m not entirely sure how I am supposed to alleviate that.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 7:38 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Enjoyed this piece

The last sentence is an important caveat, and I think it’s particularly hard to discuss or diagram shape without first specifying which team has possession and where the ball is.

I kinda prefer the simplistic practice of describing formations as having three layers, because it does not give the false impression of being anything more than a rough approximation. In order to provide accurate detail about a team’s shape, you need to write 1,000 words (like this piece), not just add an extra layer to the formation notation.

by bndwgn on Mar 11, 2011 11:22 AM PST reply actions  

Seriously, turn on your tv now, or to Fox's replay of the Brescia-Inter match

Brescia are playing three at the back and flying forward, determined to score on Inter. Your ideas about 3-man defenses are very narrowly formed.

by Kirsten Schlewitz on Mar 11, 2011 12:09 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

again, it comes down to lack of width

we can go in circles about this for weeks
the way to counter a back three is to apply wide attacking pressure and pin back the wingbacks. The fact that Serie A can’t grasp this is baffling to me.

I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea my ideas about back three formations are narrowly formed. I’ve gone to great lengths to spell out that “back 3” means 3 “center backs” and a “back 4” means 2 center backs, and both essentially use 5 defenders. I’ve also gone to great lengths to point that that all formations are neutral and it is personnel which defines their inherent attacking or defensive or “neutral” status.

What i am trying to point out is that you don;t need a “back 3” to free the fullbacks to attack. Like I have said, Chelsea do this out of a 4-diamond-2 where Mikel drops very deep, and Barca do this out of a 4-1-2-3 where Busquets drops very deep.

I don’t know where my in my descriptions of players like Alonso as an “auxiliary center back” and a “5th defender” lead to the conclusions that I hate the back three. Haven’t I aid that even a back 4 is really a back three?

It is a fact that a lot of teams use a back 3/5 to stifle the game. However, just like the fullbacks in a back 4 will have freedom to attack in certain tactical scenarios, likewise the wingbacks will do so as well.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

If all formations are neutral

how is a 3-5-2 defensive?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Mar 11, 2011 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

to clarify

I have stated that 3-5-2, or three-defender systems in general, are more often than not defensive-minded. I do not see how this equates to saying 3-5-2 is a defensive formation.

I’m beginning to wonder f the entirety of this debate comes down to my choice of words “more often than not”. I don’t consider that a particularly strong or even anywhere near definitive statement. When I use that type of phraseology it tends to REALLY annoy people who are looking for up/down, in/out, on/off, yes/no- type answers ;-)

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 7:51 PM PST up reply actions  

You're not saying it's neutral.
There are those who claim that these formations are more tactically interesting, but I actually beg to differ, and this is admittedly because, as I see it, teams looking to use a 3-defender formation are more often than not looking to play more defensively, and want to use three center backs to provide additional cover.

by Kirsten Schlewitz on Mar 11, 2011 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

And finally, what do you do in a situation in which four centerbacks take their place in the XI?

Is that still a back “three”? I just don’t understand where you’re going with this. It’s like you’re making up your own vocabulary when there’s really no need to do so.

by Kirsten Schlewitz on Mar 11, 2011 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

are you asking about nomeclature?

not sure what you’re trying to say here. I stated myself that a “back three” isn’t necessarily all centerbacks – although I have read that description in plenty of places, most notably Jonathan Wilson’s writing. The description of a back three as “3 centerbacks” has actually always bugged me a bit.

This is how it is commonly described, however, and so I have adopted that nomenclature myself

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 7:47 PM PST up reply actions  

That's right. Ideally, Maggio and Dossena wouldn't ever really want to defend.

Another bonus of three at the back is that most teams use two forwards, which gives the defending side a 3v2 advantage rather than 2v2. However, if the opposition is clever, they WILL force Maggio and Dossena to defend, or at least try to catch them out of position with good wide play. However, this doesn’t happen much in a league where narrow formations are predominant (lots of 4-2-3-1, 4-3-1-2, etc.)

But I’m sure you know this already.

La Vecchia Signora Forever!

by AKSupporter on Mar 11, 2011 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Entertaining thread...

Writer for SB Nation's Manchester United blog, 'The Busby Babe'

http://twitter.com/#!/Tui11BRoy3

"ROOOONEY!.... It defies description. How about spectacular?...How about superb?"

by Gene Um on Mar 11, 2011 4:23 PM PST up reply actions  

the biggest reason "3-defender" systems are considered obsolete

is the 4-2-3-1. A back three would have three CB’s against that one top forward, with the wingbacks responsible for the wingers. This provides for an 2 spare defenders, and thus the “park the bus stereotype” I have been accused of perpetuating.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 7:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Bit off on the history

Considering the novelty of the 4-2-3-1 (5-8 years, but really only widespread in the past 2 years), I think your timing is wrong on this. 3-defender systems went out of fashion more than 5 years ago, did they not?

Come over to the Whitecaps Offside page:
http://vancouver.theoffside.com/

by Brenton Offside on Mar 11, 2011 7:56 PM PST up reply actions  

the 4-2-3-1 started evolving in the 90's

I consider the key evolutionary point in the 4-2-3-1 to be the “playmaker” as 2nd striker, and this may have actually stared with Maradona in, oddly enough, the 3-5-2 Argentina used to win the 1986 World Cup. As usual, it took a while for nomenclature to catch up with what was happening on the pitch. The 4-2-3-1 has actually been around a while, it just seems as though no one was calling it that for a while.

I seem to have been quite unintentionally cast as a sort of champion for the death of the 3-5-2 formation, and this is a bit unfortunate when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

I could keep rambling but here’s an interesting piece you should read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/mar/02/the-question-egypt-england-three-defence

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Evolving, sure

I’m not convinced. The key aspect of the 4-2-3-1 is the double pivot rather than the playmaker, which is a common enough role in most formations.

I take your point, though, about the nomenclature as it relates to what is going on on the pitch.

Anyway, formation wanking aside, I appreciate the discussion.

Come over to the Whitecaps Offside page:
http://vancouver.theoffside.com/

by Brenton Offside on Mar 11, 2011 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

and you're point is...

???
 as I see it, teams looking to use a 3-defender formation are more often than not looking to play more defensively.

And that’s just it… in its entirety. It is your interpretation that I mean something other than what i am saying.

You have quite trenchantly pointed out exceptions to this, and that’s fine. I don’t ever think i said there aren’t exceptions to anything. I mean, at some point I need to write what I’m going to write and make the point that I’m going to make. It already takes 1000 words to describe how a back-4 really works, the length of such a piece could be doubled or even tripled with all the caveats and whatnot.

And I still come back to the same point about players like Cole or Alves: when unleashed against teams without adequate attacking width to try to pin them back they are virtually wingers. And they are nominally fullbacks in a 4-defender system.

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 7:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Almost always?

Teams that are said to employ “4 across the back” almost always employ a deep-lying central defensive midfielder

I think you need to qualify this. Are we talking MLS? English league football? Portugal? Because I think a quick look at the formations/tactics employed by the teams in the Premier League would show that while some teams use a dedicated DM, they don’t always play really deep. And some teams playing a 4-4-2 (which is still fairly common) don’t have a deep-lying DM, they are more central or pop up all over the pitch (think Darren Fletcher).

Come over to the Whitecaps Offside page:
http://vancouver.theoffside.com/

by Brenton Offside on Mar 11, 2011 8:06 PM PST reply actions  

Michael Carrick?

as an aside, I think its interesting that Fergie likes to pull the “4-3-3” club out of the bag from time to time… The Man U approach is often a bit dynamic. Fergie himself has said it wasn’t always strictly 4-4-2.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson
[this link also applies to the above thread]

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Mar 11, 2011 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Carrick?

Doesn’t he have only five starts on the season? (17, actually.)

Unrelated, you should check out the Joys of Six column on the six best passes ever:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/mar/11/joy-of-six-great-passes

Come over to the Whitecaps Offside page:
http://vancouver.theoffside.com/

by Brenton Offside on Mar 11, 2011 9:32 PM PST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Sounder at Heart is a blog about the Seattle Sounders FC, with occasional forays into Democracy in Sports, Roster Management, Soccer Statistics and Life in Puget Sound. We are not the actual Sounders blog.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Twitter-icon_small
Fredy Montero with magic at the death vs. the Whitecaps part 1 (animated)
Small
On "fake turf" in Seattle, 2012 edition

Recent FanPosts

2334846872_d5a0828b89_small
The Friendly Confines of the Clink
Small
Sounders go after Drogba, yes or no?
Img957001_small
Substitute +/- Ratings
Twitter-icon_small
Fredy Montero mesmerizes Whitecaps' Joe Cannon (animated)
Acerimmer_small
Eddie Johnson Scores on Michael Gspurning? Yes indeed!
Paraguay_small
Sounders #awaysupport
Small
Andy Rose!
Small
What's our line-up vs. Dallas?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Sounder at Heart exists on Facebook - Like Us

Follow SounderAtHeart on Twitter

Sounder At Heart on Twitter

follow me on Twitter

Follow the rest of us on Twitter

Sounder At Heart (Site Feed)

Sidereal (MLS stats)

Jeremiah Oshan (top 10 soccer journalist on Twitter, Baby!)

Aaron Campeau (Villa, Mariners)

Dave Clark (beer, specfic, mideast)

Brian Floyd (all Seattle sports)

Nos Audietis (podcast stuff, snark)

Chris Coulter (photos, academy)


Managers

Tiny_dave_with_scarf_small Dave Clark

Oshan_small Jeremiah Oshan

Seattlesoccerscene_small sidereal

Nos Audietis Crew

Avatar_small Aaron Campeau

254350_1953423628277_767159_n_small dano_seattle

Authors

Img_0349_small malcontentjake

Devlin_small sum anon

Small dennyoffside

Ravelry_logo_small Abbott Smith

Special1tv_o_small Timm Higgins