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Dreams of starting 3-5-2 are Unfounded

James Riley and Alvaro Fernandez both don't play in a conventional 3-5-2 as a starting formation.

With Sigi Schmid's quotes to the media post-game yesterday about the planned possibility of a shift to the 3-5-2 late in game with specific intent; speculation is mounting around the internet, be it from writers (Prost Soccer) or commenters (New Tribune) at various other sites. It is interesting speculation, but there are a few reasons it couldn't work long term. Foremost, the quote indicates that it was a late game tactic.

... so we switched to a 3-5-2.  When we switched to that and brought in Montero and Jaqua I thought we got more offense created and I think based upon the last 15 minutes we deserved to get an equalizer.  I thought we were creating more chances up front even though we left ourselves open a little bit in the back

Indications of it being temporary are that Montero normaly starts, and that it is better to be a defensive team than offensive team over the long term. You earn more points on average from shutting out the opponent than failing to score. That defensive issue could be addressed by adjusting to the conventional 3-5-2, but that has some issues.

The conventional 3-5-2 is three centerbacks, two wingbacks, a central triangle of some sorts and two forwards. This immediately shows several issues.

But it is a bad idea for other reasons. That three-man triangle would need to include Steve Zakuani, Alvaro Fernandez, Osvaldo Alonso and Rosales. Which is kind of difficult because 4 is bigger than 3. These are four of the best players on the team, and need to play.

In any discussion of a possible shift in tactics or formations one must consider those players that you identify as key players, as the best players on the squad - Montero, Rosales, Alvaro, Alonso, Parke and Keller are on that list in most reader's opinions. If you think about a 3-man back line what could be done?

Star-divide

Now I'm going to stick with the idea of a Target Forward. In that role I would go with White, but Jaqua works too. I'm also going to recognize that Steve Zakuani is much more a winger than a wide midfielder, and that Rosales can do that role on the opposite side.

Montero as a trequartista has been thoroughly recognized on this site. So with that attacking four in mind how do things look?

 

 

OBW

Zakuani

Montero

Rosales

Evans

Alonso

Fernandez

Hurtado

Parke

Ianni

Keller

 

 

Now, I'm not proposing that Alvaro and Brad Evans play as wingbacks. They aren't there for width, but as box-to-box outside midfielders in a kind of 3-3-3-1. Now, if you are old-school and think in 3 bands this could be called a 3-5-2, but here the middle band of 3 is about shifting to meet the needs on defense or offense. There are a lot of triangles here for passing lanes, but the communication required on defense is not easily implemented mid-season.

The second team (that one to win the Open Cup?) would have a back three of Tyson Wahl, Taylor Graham and Zach Scott. The next three would be Leo Gonzalez, Servando Carrasco and James Riley (are two of those really 2nd teamers?). In the offensive band of three with Tetteh, Fucito, Neagle and Jaqua up top it could compete. This completely ignores Brad Evans and Erik Friberg.

In the end, no 3-man back-line is going to be the answer. The only way to play the talent on this team is through creative rotation of starters, in-game tactical adjustments, and starts due to injury. This is still a deep team, with more players capable of starting, and in various roles, than the average MLS team.

We will continue to see experimentation in short bursts, but they are in no way indicative of a permanent change.

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I may end up using your formation in Fifa, lol. It could be pretty nasty if they’d only add Rosales on the roster!

by Aasenb on Apr 17, 2011 6:00 PM PDT reply actions  

You can find him

He’s in 2011

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 17, 2011 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

thanks

I just figured he wasn’t in the game because he was out of contract. Won’t be able to use him online though :(

by Aasenb on Apr 17, 2011 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

For FIFA put Alvaro up there

and Riley in middle three

You then have Friberg, Jaqua and Fucito on the bench

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 17, 2011 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

remember where exactley he can be found? It’s pretty confusing transferring players in this game at times

by Aasenb on Apr 17, 2011 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I could be wrong but

i seem to remember finding him on Queretaro FC.

by Boz86 on Apr 17, 2011 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just know that MLS-Rumors found him and put him on Cascadia XI

I only get FIFA every other year

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 17, 2011 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I couldn't find him either

And rolled my own Rosales. Rosters sure are a pain to manage in there, especially what with that Virtual Pro DP slot.

by joesz on Apr 17, 2011 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

The problem I have with 4 in the back is....

Lack of offense going forward from Riley and Leo. They have rarely been in the box and in an offensive position. The only crosses they serve in are from greater than 35 – 40 yards out and are bloopers.
I’d be okay with the lack of offense if we had one of the better defenses in the league, but we’re leaking goals.
So what do we do? Hope that Riley and Leo suddenly become offensive threats? Well that hasn’t been the case for almost 2 years. Hope that Riley becomes a better 1v1 defender….hope Leo finds some after-burners?
I think that a change in tactics might (again might) suit our talent a bit better. We have 2 more midfielders than we know what to do with….at least until our other competitions start. “The Special One” finds ways to change tactics to suit the team and the needs of each game, why can’t we?

http://web.me.com/lienc/Site/Sounders_Talk/Sounders_Talk.html

by sounderstalk on Apr 17, 2011 6:17 PM PDT reply actions  

This team is currently better than league average for goals against, at least for historical purposes

And these fullbacks may only be half full/wing but they aren’t the problem. The problem is conversion, and over time that works in a teams favor.

Right now the easiest thing is for Alvaro to become a b2b CM and be Super Evans. That upgrades the talent overall within the Sigi System. But the system isn’t the problem, nor is the talent. Maybe execution, but for the most part luck.

Seattle should be on a pace for 1.47 PPM (50 points in 34 played). They aren’t, but it isn’t because of their tactics, or talent. Tally Hall was the keeper of the week. Saunders came in 2nd.

Sigi has changed tactics, but in the end I prefer a team that is self-defining than one that is reactive.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 17, 2011 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Where'd you get the 1.47 ppm?

Previous year’s result, or expectations based on shot differential?

by Tohoya on Apr 17, 2011 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

not just shot differntial

save % is part of it

I’m unleashing the formula this week

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 17, 2011 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just based on average number of goals per shots generated

That PPM feels about right.

And, if we reverse the formula, we should be allowing right around 1 PPM. This team doesn’t need to do anything radical – just stay the course.

by Orothar on Apr 17, 2011 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

That 3-3-3-1 looks sexy

Is the only barrier to its implementation that coordinating it mid-season will be a problem?

by Tohoya on Apr 17, 2011 6:40 PM PDT reply actions  

sorry, but I just think this discussion is silly

its a far cry between a late-game change to try to get a goal and a system change.

first of all, 3-5-2 is basically a garbage term, as it can imply so many different things that in and of itself it is meaningless. Yesterday, Sigi shifted to what I basically call a 3-2-3-2, which is not uncommon for teams in situations which the Sounders found themselves in yesterday…

Generally, as a system, 3-5-2 often manifests itself as 3-4-1-2. What Dave discusses above actually brings to mind more Chile’s 3-diamond-3 which was an outcome of their 3-3-3-1/3-3-1-3 system which didn’t employ wingbacks (but instead a single CDM to help out the back 3)

They are all interesting ideas, but I’m not sure what gives rise to all of this, other than the desire to get Fernandez on as a starter… and even this doesn’t necessarily get him on in his desired role as a wide attacking midfielder…

Brad Evans might make a pretty good right wingback though…

...that's MISTER Keller to you!!!

by malcontentjake on Apr 17, 2011 8:24 PM PDT reply actions  

I like the 3-5-2 line-up you got...

with a couple exceptions. I’d play Riley at the RW over Fernandez and allow bring Fernandez on as the first sub for ANYONE but the back 3. Having Friberg also gives us depth across the middle if anyone needs a night off/is dinged up.

by Kyle Ritter on Apr 17, 2011 9:14 PM PDT reply actions  

I think there is a big difference.

A starting 3-5-2 and 3-5-2 to chase a game are completely different in personnel and objective. Like Dave mentioned, if we you do a traditional 3-5-2 you are playing 3 centerbacks and 2 wing backs. If you are thinking we should do a 3-5-2 like we did to chase the Philly game you are looking at 5 attacking midfielders and only 3 natural defensive players. It’s a bit crazy to think we could get by in the league with only 3 natural defenders in our lineup, or to think that are fullbacks can pick up the offensive slack that we would have by having 1 less midfielder.

I think the real issue is the desire some fans have in wanting a combination of Rosales, Alonso, Evans, Friberg, and Zakuani in midfield. That is why the 3-5-2 seemed so magical. The only viable way to have those midfielders on the pitch at once is not to have one less defender, but one less forward. However Montero is not going to be the only man up top and we like someone with a bit more size in there as well. Perhaps if Montero and White had a lovechld this offspring could play up top alone in this imaginary land where a 4-2-3-1 featuring the 5 aforementioned midfielders would work. The reality is we need Montero up top paired with a big forward, and we need 4 in the back. We’re not going to get all 5 of those players on the field at once, especially if Montero is playing.

-Ben R.

by reesebw on Apr 17, 2011 10:39 PM PDT reply actions  

If the Sounders were really going to use a 3-5-2 to start a game

Keeping in mind that I don’t think this is happening, but if it were, I think you’d have to see a defense of Ianni, Hurtado and Parke. I think you’d be almost guaranteed to see Riley on the field as a wing back. You’d have Montero and White as your two forwards. You’d have a central midfield, most likely, of rosales, Zakuani and Alonso. That leaves you with a left wing back to fill, and it seems like the only legitimate candidate for that would be Evans.

Unfortunately, this is a personnel solution begging for a problem. All you’ve really accomplished is taken Leo off the field and replaced him with Ianni. Like reesebw said, the thing that seems so attractive bout the 3-5-2 (or whatever iteration Jake prefers to call it) is the idea of getting an extra mf on teh field in place of a defender, which I really don’t see as a likely outcome.

I will say that this formation potentially fits the skills of the players more effectively. Riley is probably a better wing back than he is a full back. Evans might even be a better wing back than a CM. It would be interesting to see Zakuani working in the center of the field.

But if people think are hoping that Sigi is suddenly going to start out with a formation like we saw at the end of Saturday’s game, I think they are sorely mistaken.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 17, 2011 11:07 PM PDT reply actions  

this is a nice problem to have...

a depth of talent — no one wants to see them on the bench because they can contribute. As long as everyone can manage the ego’s, this depth will prove a difference maker for this team as the season wears on.

Life's what happens while you're making other plans

by LGoofus on Apr 18, 2011 8:08 AM PDT reply actions  

I like to say a coach has 3 parts

tactician/strategist
trainer/educator
pyschologist

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 18, 2011 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Defending the counters...

This is the league of counters and I thought we defended their counters well with a 3-man back line. If you’re attacking that heavily, at best all you’d have to be able to defend are the counters, no?

I wouldn’t want to employ this formation on the regular, but it certainly made the match less boring once we started laying on the offense, and I’m definitely a fan of this formation if we fall behind and it’s late in the match.

by ABTsportsline on Apr 19, 2011 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

True, but this was Philly
This is the league of counters and I thought we defended their counters well with a 3-man back line.

I mean, it’s not like they have very much that resembles an offense right now. A team that was good at counters could have taken advantage.

by Nevtelen on Apr 19, 2011 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't really understand the logic

of taking Leo and Riley out and putting Ianni in? You’ve essentially put three bigs on the back (although our bigs aren’t really BIGS) and, although in a perfect system, Fernandez and Evans are tracking back to pick up outside players, the reality is that at least in counters, you’e got inane one-on-one with a fast, clever forward/mid…. usually a good formula to end up with Ianni on his back with his legs looking like pretzels. Ianni is so much more effective on the inside. If anything, I’d rather put Ianni on the inside in that formation and switch Hurtado out, who has the pace and tactical sense to cover past outside players. Parke isn’t a great option on really quick guys either, but he’s certainly better than Ianni in my mind..

by swansuite on Apr 18, 2011 8:42 AM PDT reply actions  

You make good points...

And it’s another reason why we’re unlikely to see a 3-back formation used with regularity.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter

by Jeremiah Oshan on Apr 18, 2011 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's kind of the point

The only way a 3-5-2 works is with 3 CBs. Riley can’t defend forwards for 60+ minutes, nor can Leo.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Apr 18, 2011 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd argue Parke is our fastest CB

Watching them play, Parke can turn on the burners if he needs to; he just typically plays slower in the middle when speed isn’t called for.

If you ever watch him chase a ball to the corner as the lone defender on a counter, you’ll see what I mean. He has wheels when he wants ;)

by ABTsportsline on Apr 19, 2011 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Where does Fucito fit?

As I read this thread, it strikes me that Fucito was barely mentioned. Is he again relegated to USOC and CCL play? As a protected player, he certainly was in Sigi’s plans for this year, but unfortunately he picks the most inopportune times to get injured. The wings look pretty loaded with talent who all are playing pretty well (with Fernandez debate aside), so thoughts of moving him out there are dampened – especially knowing Sigi’s propensity to avoid major changes when the team is playing well…..so looks like he’s Montero’s injury backup, and may compete for late sub minutes when we’re down – kind of like last year. queue up the PPM debate.

Sounds like he was ready to be in the 18 last week, but Montero was able to go. Side note – boy, I didn’t realize how much I missed Freddy until he played on Saturday.

by InternetCharlie on Apr 19, 2011 12:45 PM PDT reply actions  

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