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Trophies, Not Friendlies Revisited

SEATTLE, WA - JULY 20: Gabriel Obertan #26 of Manchester United passes the ball through the legs of Taylor Graham #26 of the Seattle Sounders FC during the second half of the game at CenturyLink Field on July 20, 2011 in Seattle, Washington. Manchester United won the game 7-0. (Photo by Steve Dykes/Getty Images)

Ah, the gnashing of teeth. The putting of words into the mouth. Many people over the past week or two have been putting forward the idea of #TrophiesNotFriendlies. Some have adopted the slogan as it is quick, easy and poignant, but they don't necessarily speak for myself. Considering how much chatter there has been concerning friendlies this year, and the latest statements from MLS Commissioner Don Garber, it is time to clarify. Let's look at the headline first, because it really shows the origins of the campaign.

Garber: Clubs should set their own summer priorities

That right there is the first significant issue. Who wants to be a fan of a team that decides that their priority is for a cash grab rather than winning games? Because due to fixture congestion prioritization is an issue. This year the Sounders had the advantage of a weekend game being canceled, but part of the reason that Seattle has emptied its bench in every friendly is because they do place a higher priority on the games that can result in a trophy. Garber goes on about this prioritization strongly suggesting that teams should be trying to win their friendlies, implying that losing League, Open Cup or CONCACAF Champions League matches due to a friendly would be OK.

Star-divide

"Nobody likes to lose 7-0," Garber said to a throng of media at halftime of Wednesday’s All-Star Game. "You don’t like to lose 7-0 in a schoolyard soccer match. Our view is that if we’re going to play these games, we ought to play to win. And if a team can’t fit it into their schedule either because of congestion or their own priorities, then they shouldn’t play in those games.

"I think Seattle regrets playing their second team, reserves, even trialists against Manchester United. I don’t think we’d ever do anything like that again."

Here's another objection to those that single out the Sounders for that result. Trialists and deep reserves play in friendlies in every league, in every country in the world. That's the non-financial point of friendlies. It is why unlimited, or high numbers, of substitutes are allowed. That Garber wasn't embarrassed when Jordan Jennings, invitee keeper, came on against Celtic last year proves that he's making statements based on a score, not a philosophical concept. He wasn't embarrased that United played their third keeper. It is only this one result that gets called out, not the fact that he set-up a tournament with 11 subs permitted. If reserves aren't supposed to play, why do his rules allow it? Why doesn't he object when the Euro sides do it?

Don Garber's statements show the very problem with friendlies beyond the financial gains. If a team is to treat them like competitive matches they would not be friendlies. If they actually mattered there would be a limit on the number of substitutes.

There are clubs that need the financial benefits of friendlies. But they are also losing interest among many American fans. Juventus and Sporting Lisbon had terrible attendance. The games among the minor clubs visiting Portland, San Jose, Orlando, etc did not generate great revenue, nor much in the way of increased local media interest.

Now, I agree with Jeremiah. If friendlies are to happen they should be amongst the biggest of clubs.

But I strongly disagree that any club should ever place a priority on friendlies over league play, ala the New York Red Bulls. Clubs should have two priorities, one on the pitch and the other off of it. The one on the pitch would be to win as many games, and thereby trophies, as possible. Off the pitch they should strongly connect with the community in which they exist. Between those two ideals an organization should have strong attendance that is not connected to a foreign power, but instead they would make substantial money because of who they are. Not who they aren't.

If it is a matter of priorities, both for your money and the club's effort, what is more important to you - one game that doesn't matter, or the three competitions that do?

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No brainer

Priority is winning silverware. I admit, I like the big friendlies, I enjoy watching top world teams and their players do their thing, but if it comes down to a choice, pick one or the other….#trophiesnotfriendlies

by Dan Olson on Jul 28, 2011 8:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Wonder if Graber thinks losing 4-0 is acceptable...

I’d be curious to know what MLS would think if Seattle pulled out of friendlies altogether though. I’d imagine Seattle vs big name clubs in front of 60,000 fans is good for the league and tv ratings. If the major clubs of MLS don’t do friendlies, will there be pressure from the league to do them for marketing?

Personally, I’m hoping that next summer the Sounders focus on winning trophies and skip a friendly all together.

Follow me on the twitters @AlanHoffmann

by 51dimes on Jul 28, 2011 8:46 AM PDT reply actions  

RSL doesn't do them anymore

They also don’t have a large enough stadium to host huge clubs.

And Garber does think that losing 4-nil is acceptable. Because it was when Seattle lost earlier friendlies. He didn’t make an issue of Fucito taking the pitch in 09. He’s embarrassed by the result only. Nothing else.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jul 28, 2011 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sounders starters did better against Man United in the first half than the MLS All Stars.

That should be embarrassing enough for the MLS.

(and yes I realize that this is a little bit petty of me to think this way about it)

by CMC_Stags on Jul 28, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't forget MLS (and Garber) get a cut

The MLS are majority owners in every club so they benefit financially from the friendlies. They might be OK with RSL not holding friendlies since their stadium (and smaller market status) doesn’t allow them to make the big bucks. However, they might object with the Sounders doing away with friendlies all together since they are so profitable here.

by Dizzo on Jul 28, 2011 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

I think the Sounders new philosophy (well, what we hope) won’t jive with MLS. Perhaps an emphasis on trophies and not friendlies is part of the transition to MLS 3.0. The Sounders are a strong franchise and established. They don’t need the regional attendance shot that a major friendly would. The Sounders will be fine without friendlies. But, will MLS miss seeing a sold out RBP with over 60,000 fans watch an American side take on a European giant? And will they miss the ad revenue that comes from it?

The Sounders are coming around to focusing on trophies more, but I wonder if they’ll face pressure from the league to continue them.

Follow me on the twitters @AlanHoffmann

by 51dimes on Jul 28, 2011 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

THIS

is the reason that we should use the midsummer friendly spot to watch teams other than the Sounders.
Would I have LOVED to play good money to watch MUFC take on Barcelona?
Yes.

Would I love to watch us host a USMNT, heck even a USWNT game?
Yes.

Could we fill a stadium and make money even if the Sounders weren’t a featured team? Yes.

Do the Sounders need more regional exposure to fill seats?
No.

Should the team instead be focussed on #trophiesnotfriendlies?
You tell me.

"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin

by Little old me on Jul 28, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

You do realize

that only 50,535 showed up for Mexico-Ecuador in May? And only 15,387 for the 2009 Gold Cup doubleheader (US MNT v. Grenada was one match). That’s a track record that indicates the stadium won’t be even close to filled if the Sounders aren’t playing.

You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.

by 108Ultra on Jul 28, 2011 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

They sold out DC United vs. Real Madrid a few years back

That ‘09 Gold Cup game was on the 4th of July and the US was playing a C squad since they also had the Confed Cup that summer. I’m not convinced there’s a huge USMNT following here (at least relative to the support for the Sounders), but something like a Spain vs. USMNT friendly is a totally different can of worms than that ’09 Gold Cup game.

by ubelmann on Jul 28, 2011 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

'09 Grenada match isn't really indicative of anything

regarding how full a stadium there would be if 30k+ people already had tickets via season ticket packages.

"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin

by Little old me on Jul 29, 2011 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

When we know we will be fielding our C team against a poorly showing international squad on a summertime National holiday.

"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin

by Little old me on Jul 29, 2011 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe that's exactly what this was...

…a shot over the bow to Adrian… don’t do that again (let Sigi get humiliated), but please keep having friendlies (because they bring cash and attention on the league).

by bmvaughn on Jul 28, 2011 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Who's decision was it though?

Do you think that AH told Sigi to play everyone? Personaly i think Sigi did that on his own. I know he did not want to lose 7-0 but he had no reason to think that would happen. If i was coach im thinking, this game does not matter and we have important games coming up. Lets get some reserves some playing time, and lets try a few different poistions for players. That way we get the most out of the “friendly”. It is unfortunate how it turned out, however you could not have predicted that before hand.

by MurrayD on Jul 28, 2011 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone was calling for friendlies to be a higher priority than league play

Just that they should be taken seriously. What is wrong with that?

To some extent I agree with Garber. Friendlies may not have any point consequences, but they should still be taken somewhat seriously – the fans are paying more money to watch a good match, not a pro bowl.

That aside, it doesn’t look good to anyone when you see a premier MLS side get shellacked by a PL side – even if it’s the second best team in the world versus MLS reserves. It doesn’t reflect well on the league.

Before anyone makes a rebuttal to that, I’ll point to the results from every other friendly: all were somewhat respectable. Make all the excuses you want, but the Sounders friendly result was the most embarassing of the lot – so why wouldn’t Garber point out that as an example? What Garber said was basically an echo of Sigi’s comments last week anyway “well, we’re not going to do THAT again”. Given that, I don’t take issue with Don’s comments as an attack on us but rather just a re-inforcing of Sigi’s comments for the rest of the MLS to hear. It was a lesson learned by the Sounders and Garber was wanting that lesson to be shared by all teams. Not an unreasonable tack for a commissioner to take.

As someone who shelled out stupid money to watch the Man U match, yes – I still have a bad taste in my mouth.

SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting

by ABTsportsline on Jul 28, 2011 9:50 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

But this is quite like a pro-bowl

If you’re an NFL fan living in Hawaii, would you expect the best players to play in the pro-bowl if the next week they had to play in the Super-Bowl?
Your answer has to be no. You wouldn’t want to see Drew Brees or whoever it may be get hurt and miss that big game.
How about if the next week he had to play in a regular season game, that would in part determine whether or not the team makes the play-offs?
No, I wouldn’t expect to see the best players on the field for the entire time as they have to play the next week and need to be rested and not injured.

But then again, the only people who play a game after the probowl are those playing in the super bowl, so none of them show up anyways.

My point: The league needs to stop having midseason friendlies, period. If I see Montero or Alonso or even Terry “can’t catch a ball to save my life” Boss injured in a game that has absolutely no point, I’m going to be extremely pissed off with the league.

As for people wasting their money on friendlies, boo hoo, learn to opt out if you’re disappointed in the team’s play.

by thegreatsultan on Jul 28, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey! Watch what you say about my Team!

The Nationals never lose 7-0! They are going to win soon. They have been getting SOOooo close!

by lysander on Jul 28, 2011 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Pro-Bowl only started being played before the Super Bowl this last year

And frankly that’s a stupid format. I thought it was better when they played after everything was done and over with. That’s your classic NFL over-tinkering.

Bigger point is I don’t think that’s what we should compare the MLS ASG to – I was specifically citing that’s NOT what we want ;-)

If the Pro Bowl consisted of NFL players playing top international competition and it was a display of the quality of the league, it might be a better comparison. Garber is just looking at this like it’s his child – you don’t want to see your kid get pasted on the playground.

SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting

by ABTsportsline on Jul 28, 2011 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty much agree with everything you have to say here, and I'd add...

Should the National Team stop playing friendlies too? Friendlies really DO serve a purpose other than just being cash grabs. For the Nats it keeps them sharp as they don’t play together every week and you want them to be ready when it counts. And for both the Nats and club teams it let’s you gauge where you’re at against clubs you either would not normally play, or against clubs that you may end up playing in Champions League, etc.

I guess I just don’t see why this has become such a big deal. Sure, losing 7-0 didn’t help and only further muddied the water on #trophiesnotfriendlies. But I think the more important issue is salary cap and roster size. A sizeable increase in both and most fixture congestion problems go away. After all, isn’t that the real issue with #trophiesnotfriendlies?

#TrophiesAndFriendlies

by SoundersRiot on Jul 28, 2011 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

National team is a bit different animal

The National team predominantly plays in tournaments and the qualifying stages. Those games are obviously all important to win. The friendlies serve the purpose of showing who has the ability to play on the team and what the starting lineups should be in the build up to a tournament as well as to develop some chemistry on the field. A coach does not want to be experimenting with lineups when the game is important. Look at the US-Spain game right before the Gold Cup. The lineup was not the A team but Bradley needed to make decisions about players and positions. Friendlies in the build up to a tournament are much more useful than a midseason friendly for an MLS team

by sdcoug09 on Jul 28, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh I totally agree

Nat friendlies and club friendlies are completely different animals in their purpose and meaning. But just because the result doesn’t matter and the coach is trying out new players, tactics etc., does that mean that people don’t care or that the players/coach don’t try? No. We do care. And the players/coach do take it seriously and they do play to win. It is after all still a competitive match.

Club friendlies should be no different. Sure, they don’t mean anything ultimately in league/tournament standings, but I see nothing wrong with making it a priority to be competitive going forth. I really don’t think any club (other than RBNY) is going to make it a priority over league/tournament matches. But if they want to, that’s their problem.

#TrophiesAndFriendlies

by SoundersRiot on Jul 28, 2011 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not to distract from your larger point, but

1) Were any of those teams gunning from best record in the league at that point? Most of those teams were relegated, or near it. If ManUtd beat Toronto 7-0, that’d be different. Hell, we could probably beat Toronto 7-0 on a good day. We could probably beat St Pauli 7-0 on a good day.

2) I hope every one of those teams was embarrassed and angry

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Jul 28, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

That only reinforces the point

Regarding the game ‘reflecting’ on the league. The reputation of the Bundesliga wasn’t affected by Stuttgart crushing BMG, because BMG is a bad team in that league. But a good team being crushed does reflect on the league.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Jul 28, 2011 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Real Madrid lost 5-0 to Barca in the last La Liga season

So what are we to believe? That La Liga is terrible because Real Madrid got blown out? Of course not. KC beat Man Utd last year—how does it reflect on the UEFA Champions League that its runner-up was beaten by a mid-table MLS side? The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t. It’s one game, one scoreline, and ought to be treated like a grain of sand on the beach.

by ubelmann on Jul 28, 2011 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

At some point you need to stop pointing to exceptions though

I can probably dig up exceptions to the point too, but you’re missing the message. It isn’t about how many times it’s happened in the past. It doesn’t matter when PL or La Liga sides get blown out to each other – everyone already knows these teams, their history, and what they’re capable of. The MLS is completely alien to most wordwide fans, and the world’s exposure to the Sounders is probably close to nil.

The Sounders are one of the top teams in the MLS. “Top MLS side gets blown out” isn’t a nice headline. I was embarassed for my club and how we represented our league. And yes I feel like I’m beating the crap out of the deadest horse ever here…

Sounder fans all know it’s a meaningless game. That isn’t the point. It’s the image of my team that I’m concerned about. That was our biggest defeat in our club’s MLS-era history, man. Fans should be allowed to be a little irritated. The image amongst Sounders fans is fine – that’s not who we’re talking about here, so you don’t have to sell me on it. I’m with you there.

Not trying to belabor the point as by now the entire issue is over and done with, but it didn’t sound like you understood what we were saying

SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting

by ABTsportsline on Jul 29, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure why we are so overly concerned of how others perceive us

I thought we conceded the Hipster culture to our ’lil brother town down there to the South.

I mean, I know we are having a hard time convincing people to show up to games and all… but come on.

"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin

by Little old me on Jul 29, 2011 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Sounders losing 7-0 is an exception

It’s totally valid to point to exceptions when my point is that no reasonable person should be basing their opinion of the league on one scoreline, and that any one particular game doesn’t really reflect on the league—it just reflects on that game.

I think that the Sounders being a top team is a red herring, too. New England played Man Utd closer than we did, so someone looking at those two scores might conclude that New England is better than Seattle. But we have a lot of evidence in the league standings that that’s not the case. So anyone thinking about this in anything more than the most superficial way possible is going to realize that that particular score isn’t meaningful of anything like a way to compare two leagues to one another.

I’m not a big fan of negative publicity either, but we got fans to the stadium and they got a taste of how fun it is to watch soccer live with lots of people cheering. Surely some of them feel the level of play in MLS will never be good enough for them, but out of 20-30,000 Man Utd fans who attended, surely some of them went home thinking that it could be fun to come back and cheer on the Sounders against a team of their caliber. To me, that outweighs a headline-making scoreline.

by ubelmann on Jul 29, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think what could help

Is for MLS to take a month off in the summer. Would allow for friendlies, Allstar, USOC, Champions league, National team friendlies and tournaments.
They could probably start the season a bit earlier and tac on a week at the end. If it could be done it would solve a lot of problems.

by fcjake on Jul 28, 2011 10:03 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

He agrees with you

From the same article:

What should help the teams make those decisions will be potential changes in the competitive calendar, which should ease the congestion if the discussions taking place among the league owners come to fruition. "We’re confined in our opinion by this narrow calendar," the MLS Commissioner said. "At some point we’re going to be able to push that calendar deeper and deeper into March and perhaps in to February. And when we’re able to do that, I think we’ll be able to free up some of the congestion.

The con of this is playing in some pretty dreadful weather in late February/early March.

You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.

by 108Ultra on Jul 28, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or fewer games

We’re adding Montreal next year, at some point we’ll probably move away from home and home series against everyone. When that happens, cut the regular season down 30 games and open up some dates for USOC, CCL, or Friendlies for those who don’t take the former seriously. I like the equality of a home-and-home approach, but I think he could be foreshadowing this.

by InternetCharlie on Jul 28, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

oops. didn't read the full Garber quote

about pushing into Feb/March. where is that delete button?

by InternetCharlie on Jul 28, 2011 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

There is none

However, we’ve all been caught out with a comment we wish we could delete 15 seconds after posting.

by Dizzo on Jul 28, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Weather..

Yea, could you imagine playing in febuary in Colorado or Salt Lake. Do they have under soil heating? If not that would be like playing on tundra. Even with heating it would still be cold and misrable(sp?)

by MurrayD on Jul 28, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some good could come of that

If we want the best conditions for soccer, it’d probably be best to play more of the games in the south (Houston, FCD, even KC to some extent—the heat there in July/Aug can be pretty miserable) in Feb/March and Sep/Oct and it’d probably be best to play more of the games in Salt Lake, Colorado, New England, New Jersey, etc. in the summer.

by ubelmann on Jul 28, 2011 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

But that would leave season ticket holders with a lot of dead space

in whichever part of the season that their team isn’t hosting games.

by Sounders4life on Jul 28, 2011 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't outright stop teams from hosting in their unfavorable weather

But instead of 3 home games/month throughout the season, maybe 1-2 home games/month in bad weather and 4-5 home games/month in good weather. Something less extreme than, say, SKC is doing this year.

by ubelmann on Jul 28, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Texas teams would benefit

A little more flexibility would be great.

by Dizzo on Jul 28, 2011 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pre-Season in Mid Season

To those that say it doesn’t look good losing 7-0 ( Garber and a few posters )

Let’s play these games in the preseason where they belong.
Man U won’t do that ?

Bingo, maybe it doesn’t look good having a league’s teams playing preseason games in the middle of the season ?

by Charles J on Jul 28, 2011 11:36 AM PDT reply actions  

The problem is the way the MLS season is scheduled and the way European leagues are

When the MLS season is starting, the European leagues are in mid swing and UEFA champions league is starting the knockout round, not to mention domestic cups. You would never get any of the top European clubs to come to the US in the middle of the season for friendlies. To them, the risk would be to great at that point in their season. Its hypocritical but thats the state of the soccer world right now.

by sdcoug09 on Jul 28, 2011 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

You need to put that in a sidebar Dave

Then you can just link when it comes up every week.

You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. We are all around you, there is no escape.

by 108Ultra on Jul 28, 2011 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Considering that Germany does a winter break

I’d say yes, they could come over here.

Also, considering that several other teams have traveled to the MidEast for mid-season friendlies with lower payouts than USA based ones there’s a chance for those anyway.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jul 29, 2011 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm saying its less likely to get the top teams that would draw the big crowds

England and Spain also take winter breaks, but they and Germany are back to playing matches in mid January. MLS preseason starts beginning of February, 2-3 weeks after those leagues are back to playing.
Add Champions League and Domestic Cup commitments and its a full schedule for the top European sides like Man U, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Bayern, Barca and others. If the MLS season gets pushed further into March or even February its more feasible but as it currently stands, I don’t think the those clubs view it as a worthwhile risk.
Plus I don’t know if I’d want to take on an in form Barca or Man U during our preseason.

by sdcoug09 on Jul 29, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

England doesnt take a winter break

Spain takes a week and a half long one..

by Sandra_R on Jul 29, 2011 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Since I think the Sounders are going to be in the CCL Knockouts

I think a pre-season friendly in January would be awesome.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Jul 29, 2011 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

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