Playing Devil’s Advocate: Will it be a Front Office Failure?
by DarthGreedo on Aug 11, 2011 9:29 AM PDT
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PrintEditor's note: Was thinking about this very topic and rather than posting something very similar, why not just put this out front and center for all to discuss. - Jeremiah
Something in the comments thread of this post got me thinking. If Hanauer doesn’t make a deadline deal to bring in bigger talent, is he a failure?
One side of the argument claims that the Sounders have the room on their budget and the open roster spot to add big name talent. There are definite holes in the team’s roster that need filling, and if the Front Office fails to fill those holes in this window, they are failures.
However, one might argue, being a General Manager of a sports team is not just about the deadlines. Their job is to continuously add talent in order to build a competitive team. Some could argue that the Sounders Front Office has done a stellar job of building the current roster. A roster that, as currently constructed, is successfully competing for four trophies. It is also a Roster that has a good mix of young talent and veteran leadership.
If a move is not made to bring in a dangerous, goal scoring forward, it would definitely be a disappointment, and it will probably hinder the team’s chance to win a Supporters Shield. However, as currently constructed the team has a good chance to advance out of the group stage of Champions League, win the Open Cup, and has the ability to go on a run in the playoffs and win MLS Cup.
The window is not closing on this team’s championship hopes. Our core is made up of solid young talent augmented by veteran leadership. Most of the veteran's aside from Kasey Keller are easily replaceable, and most of the young talent is locked up on long term contracts. If the roster was filled with short term players (like New York for one example) i would feel more desperate to sign anyone that could help now, but this team is built for the present and the future. Personally, I hope the Front Office can sign their number one, two, or three pick. However, if those deals don’t work out I would hate to see them waste the resources on subpar talent just to get someone in the door before the deadline.
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Best post on this i have seen so far.
And for all of you who keep saying the AH is a failure, please look where we are now and how good we have been over the past 2.5 years. Then look at Portland, Vancouver, Toronto, and The Union. Our FO put together a great team from day one and i will continue to trust them.
Also i feel that many people are missing i key point about this transfer window. Not all players will come to play in the MLS, No mater what you pay them. Everyone wants a big name, but someone who is not old (less than 30). Those players dont come here yet. Just paying them big money does not always make them want to play here.
by MurrayD on Aug 11, 2011 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Agreed.
If no deal gets done despite the FO’s best efforts, it will be a failure; just not a culpable failure. It will simply be a failure to get a deal done and nothing more. Sometimes things don’t work out despite best efforts. I just cannot see blaming the FO after everything they have done to this point.
Hanaur is not failure based on transfer window, I base it on results
Even if he doesn’t sign a great finisher before Sunday, I don’t think he’s a failure. I just think we have to scale back our expectations a bit for this season. It doesn’t me he’s lost my vote when he’s up for the Alliance GM vote.
However, without the addition of a great finisher I don’t think we have a legitimate shot at the SS. Sure it’s still possible, but it becomes unlikely. Does that make the season or Hanaur a failure? Absolutely not. The Sounders have been the class of the league since day one. Hanaur is responsible for that.
So what constitutes Hanaur’s success/failure this season? For me, maintaining the status quo (USOC+playoff appearance) would be a small success at maintaining the high bar set in previous seasons (some probably would consider this a failure though). If we blow the USOC but advance out of our CCL group and do poorly in the playoffs, I’d consider that equivalent success to previous seasons as well. Winning USOC, advancing out of CCL group, and a deep run into the playoffs would be the bar for “big improvement” for me. If we don’t sign a bigtime finisher before Sunday, this becomes my hope/expectation of the team this season.
Of course the best we can hope for is another USOC, advancing out of CCL, our first SS, and an MLS Cup victory. I don’t think that’s very likely without a bigtime striker. I don’t think Hanaur should be considered a failure if we don’t achieve that.
I do wonder how much he’ll second guess the deals he’s not making right now if no deal is made, the tranfer window closes, and all we do is maintain the status quo this season (detailed above). I’ve got to believe he’s close to signing someone great (or even that there are a couple of candidates) and if they all slip by, and we fall short of our lofty goals, only he’ll know how close we came to getting that missing piece we all knew we needed.
Two things I think we should consider
If a move is not made to bring in a dangerous, goal scoring forward, it would definitely be a disappointment, and it will probably hinder the team’s chance to win a Supporters Shield.
-Only NYRB has scored more goals than the Sounders right now. Yes, most of that production is from behind the forwards. A clinical finisher would be delightful, and I cannot argue that we don’t need to improve at forward. But if we cannot get the right guy, I’d rather continue trying the no-cost approach of teaching some folks to flipping finish.
-At this point, I think the biggest hindrance to the Supporters Shield is net -2 pts in two games vs. LAG. A win tomorrow and we’ll have equal games played and be 4 pts. back. A lot of folks can make a case we should have drawn the 1st LAG game and won the 2nd. If my math is right, we’d be trailing them by 1 point if that had panned out. Instead, we’re hoping for them to trip.
All that said, would that everyone would keep this perspective:
However, if those deals don’t work out I would hate to see them waste the resources on subpar talent just to get someone in the door before the deadline.
by jayw913 on Aug 11, 2011 1:46 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Right now our scoring is so up and down.
We do score a lot in bunches, but unfortuntely those bunches don’t transfer from game to game. I think without a consistant scoring threat at forward we will continue to drop points in games we should win.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
So he didn’t have to go through the returning national team player process (what is it called? Allocation?). I’ll be curious to see how he does there. I had fun watching him in the GCup in June. I hope he doesn’t help them out too much of course.
We need...
… a dangerous goal-scoring forward. There’s just no way around that.
As good as he is at free kicks, Montero doesn’t PUSH up the field with a sense of urgency. He dances a lot. We need a Zakauni-esque striker. Someone who is good with the ball at his feet and relentlessly attacks the goal. And oh yeah.. finishes.
I think DarthGreedo would agree with you. I suppose the greater point is that it wouldn’t be good for the team to be making a deal because they have to make a deal. They should always be looking to sign the guys they want at the price they want. Ideally it works out, but I can’t say that I feel our FO has dropped the ball up to this point and so I’m willing to give them slack if they say the right deal wasn’t there. Look at it this way, we could sign a big name or an up and comer to a giant contract and then see him flame out in MLS for whatever reason. That would be worse than not signing anyone. So I’d like to see the right move rather than any move.
Boo! Tomorrow AM. I want all things now!
There's a middle ground
between signing a high risk DP and signing no one at all. The team has other needs that could have been addressed in this window. Personally, if Hanauer can’t sign someone in the international window, I will be happy if he can beef up our back line (I’m worried what happens if Riley gets injured) during the domestic transfer window.
by mikebelle on Aug 11, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
We keep forgetting that our FO is relatively new
and have made more errors than not in the DP slot. I often wonder if they feel the DP as a monkey on the back, and are way too concerned with getting it perfect. I would call not getting anyone at all in the slot a failure, but not getting a DP by itself is not bad management here. If the window closes with no one for us, my response would simply be: “we couldn’t at the very least get a loan of a halfway decent striker for 4 months to see us through the season—really?”
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 11, 2011 2:06 PM PDT reply actions
more errors than not?
Failures: second year of Ljungberg, second year of Nkufo, maybe first year of Alvaro
Successes: first year of Ljungberg, first year of Nkufo, second year of Alvaro, first year of Montero
Saying they are not using their DP slots perfectly seems fair. Saying they are missing on more than they hit seems a bit harsh.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And compared to the rest of the league's record with DPs
frankly that record is sparkling IMO.
But the failures are incredibly visible
To me the jury is still out on Montero as DP, and Flaco is looking great (If I recall correctly though, his transfer fee made him a DP, not the salary). Ljungberg and Nkufo went out with bangs and us with black eyes. And say what you want, if we don’t get someone and don’t win everything we’re in, or worse, win anything, this would be called a failure in pure hindsight—the boobirds would say you could of at least tried something here. I don’t think that by itself is a reason to sign someone, but its there.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 11, 2011 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Montero and Flaco could be considered failures under the old DP rules.
but since we have multiple slots and a smaller cap hit I think they are perfect examples on how to use the new DP rule.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Aug 11, 2011 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mean, if we're screaming for a skilled attacking player...
…and they give us one, I’m just afraid, especially if the FO’s scrambling just to appease the people calling for Adrian’s head, that we’ll end up with a Landin. No freaking thank you.
I think you're grading too harshly...
We got good value from both Ljungberg and N’Kufo AND managed to get them off the books quickly when it became apparent that it was time. Alvaro’s first year…maybe he underperformed…but he gave us the header that got us into group play in CCL, the experience from which, I predict, will prove hugely valuable this year. Montero still draws defenders and has had a couple of incredible game-winning goals. Is he performing up to HIS potential?? Maybe not. Is he giving us DP value? I think so. In addition, if the Ajax rumors pan out and we get a fraction of a $7,000,000 transfer fee….well, I’m no mathematician, but…
In addition, the same front office brought you Mauro at almost no cost. We should judge our front office by the whole of their work. If they have made any missteps, I think they have been regarding which players we left unprotected in the expansion draft. However, overall, I think our front office has done an outstanding job. I stand by them.
Great points
How can Ljungberg and Nkufo be considered failures? They helped us win when they were here and we got them off our Roster and off our salary budget as soon as they weren’t helpful. Its not like they ever got in the way of us adding talent.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
More errors than not?
We have had 4 DPs in our history.
FL-1st season ok, 2nd season error
Nkufo-1st 6months decent, 2nd season failure
Montero-Excellent
Flaco-Excellent
I don't understand your math
Locking up Montero was an error?
Flaco was an error?
Nkufo didn’t work out but was productive while he was here. I don’t see how the FO could possibly have known that he would choose to retire. Even so this did not saddle the team with long term sunk costs.
Ljunberg had an immediate positive impact on our image, ticket sales and play on the field the first year. When he became a distraction the FO moved quickly.
Maybe I am an easy grader but I would call 3/4 of those net positives. Sure none of them are home runs but if you look around the league it could be way worse.
by look4wrd on Aug 11, 2011 2:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
After that entire comment section, I'm afraid to beat the dead horse here...
But it’s ok to be disappointed in the front office. I guess I’m confused at the relentless defending of the FO when there doesn’t need to be. I think highlighting the fact that we could (and should) have added talent in this window, but didn’t – doesn’t mean anyone is a failure. Clearly our FO is one of the best in the league, and this isn’t even up for debate. All that said, it doesn’t mean they are infallible either; it’s ok to point out disappointments.
The world isn’t ending, our chances haven’t dried up, and we’re still spitting distance out of the second spot on the league table. Faith in the team isn’t the issue – it’s the lack of action during one of the windows of opportunity to do so, that causes the disappointment.
Hey – if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen. Life will go on. I know we’ll continue to do well for the remainder of the season, but I also know what we ALL will be thinking in the back of our minds next time Levesque misses a sitter.
(And of course after all this stink I’ve been making, we’ll probably sign someone huge on Sunday and I’ll be the idiot that complained for nothing ;-)
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
Haha, it wouldn't be for nothing
The FO feels the pressure, Adrian has admitted as much. They know they’ll need to make a move, or probably will have to explain very explicitly why they didn’t. Even if they don’t read the comments here (I wouldn’t be surprised if they have someone at least browsing blogs and forums fairly reguarly), I know Dave and Jeremiah’s questions and comments to the FO are influenced by what we’re talking about.
Even if we dont sign an international by Monday...
We still can trade within the league. AH will still have time to improve the team.
I can assure you...
They know what’s being said here as well as other comment boards.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Hopefully they don't read the SSFC forums
For their own sake.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 11, 2011 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I here
yea SSFC is the worst sports team site forum i seen.
Yes
i red the comments. And i can understand why they were not happy at Oakland loosing Miller to seattle.
That's certainly true
I was more referring to the way the commenters treated each other.
But I guess with Raiders fans, that’s what you’ve signed up for.
by agtk on Aug 11, 2011 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
actually
i think i will have to correct myself Seahawks forums at the seattletimes is the worst.
So what your saying is...
They hear us?
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 11, 2011 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
BOOM!
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
There are two emotions at work...
One is disappointment. I think a lot of use would be disappointed if no player were added. I know I would.
The other is a sense of failure. I’m not saying you said this, but I’ve seen the word failure used a fair amount and that is what I personally take issue with. Saying the FO failed implies they could have done something and didn’t. We have no idea what they could or could not have done and I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on their track record. I know I don’t want them to sign someone just for the sake of signing someone, and there are definitely those out there who have said otherwise.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Use of "failure" apparently a confusing point in the discussion
I know you’re not pointing fingers at me, but to everyone else: if I insinuated Adrian was a failure, I apologize here and now for the confusion. I think I’ve since stated my case enough that I can save us from another one of my explanations here. ;-)
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 11, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that we can be dissapointed.
But we really have no grounds to get out the pitchforks and ask for heads from the FO.
by MurrayD on Aug 11, 2011 2:17 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Since when
Do you need grounds to do that sort of thing?
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 11, 2011 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
We are sports fans, right?
Reason goes out the window!
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Not a failure but..
Not bringing in talent would not mean AH has been a failure but I would say that he missed a great opportunity. It’s true that the team, as currently formed, could compete in the CCL, Open Cup and MLS Cup, but competing in these competitions isn’t the goal, winning them is. Dallas and Philladelphia could have said the same before the transfer window but their front offices have continued to strengthen their squads. If you look at successful clubs around the world they are always adding players to try and strengthen the squad. This time the “cap” cannot be used as the excuse.
If we don’t add talent then our front office and ownership clearly haven’t shown the ambition or willingness to invest. It’s Keller’s last year, let’s make a move and send him out as a MLS Champion.
by Alonso45 on Aug 11, 2011 2:19 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I think that's a good point
The “failure” being discussed is not one of utter ineptitude of the front office, but rather the failure to capitalize on an opportunity. We want the Sounders to compete for trophies, & the front office has an opportunity to make the team better equipped to do that.
Given that
-The team has tangible holes to fill.
-The Sounders have financial clout, a free DP spot, & growing international respect.
-There were serious rumors surrounding BIG name players possibly coming to the Sounders (regardless of whether these were possibilities or not, it shows the respect that the Sounders garner as a club now).
Then, if no moves are made, we have to ask why. Having a good team is nice, but a great team would be better!
I liked Hanauer’s recent comments suggesting that the front office is working frantically, & has several choices lined up. I hope that they can land at least one of their targets & improve the team.
DP Allocation Charge
A third DP slot costs a team an additional $250K that is distributed as allocation money to all teams without the 3rd DP.
Is this a once a year charge and if so, have the Sounders already paid it? Seems to me that because Nkufo left before the season started, they may not have this cost on the books yet. If not, then the costs for a 3rd DP would include transfer fee, player salary, the DP charge and most likely an International slot. I assume the Sounders have an open international spot due to all of the Green Cards that the players secured earlier this year.
one time fee sounders have already paid
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Brining in ANY player will have some negatives
…beyond just cost. I’d rather they hold out for a pick they think is good for the team than just doing SOMETHING to appease nebulous demand.
FO rather than Player focus
Interesting that the lack of anything approaching a credible rumor has focused all of this discussion on the FO. So many of us are so new to following the global game and the potential player pool is so deep, that we’re left wondering what’s up with the Sounder’s FO. In any other trade market, the discussion swirls around who a fan hopes the FO will go out an get. But since most of us only know big names and the MLS, trying to gauge a credible possibility is beyond the scope of our experience. : )
To prove your point...
Who was thinking that we would sign, Frieberg, Fernandez, or Rosales. Players we had never heard about. But all great signings.
Ironically it's that amazing scouting that is doing them in now
They set the bar so high, our expectations are a bit unreasonable at times
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 11, 2011 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Rosales
Any front office that landed Rosales for the salary they paid him does not deserve to be called a failure. He might be the best signing in all of MLS this year and if you factor value into the equation I don’t think it is even close.
by brokejumper on Aug 11, 2011 2:54 PM PDT reply actions 8 recs
And locking him up might be tieing our hands financially
Rosales is playing as well as any DP we could ever hope to have.
Pay the man.
by Jack Brando on Aug 11, 2011 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Failure VS Disappointment
I wrote this because so much focus on Front Office activities seems to be on how they handled the rush at a deadline, instead of the whole body of work. I will be absolutely disappointed in Adrian and his staff if Seattle doesn’t upgrade during this window. However, overall they have done a fantastic job building this roster.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
Also. Avoid being New York
I also think its important not to over pay for talent to fill a perceived hole in a rush to win now at all costs. Look at New York. They threw away a DP spot on an aging goalkeeper, and they still leak goals like crazy on set pieces and can’t win.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
yea i was
laughing at NY for wasting a DP on a keeper even if they were taking less cap hit.
Especialy a keeper...
who has already been injured.
Certain positions you don't need to find a DP for
Goalkeeper is one. Central defender another.
Striker? Usually that’s where you’d want to use that DP slot…
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 11, 2011 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
The only
spots i think were you would need to use a DP on Striker, CAM and Winger.
And left back, ha
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 11, 2011 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
outside
backs would be a waste of the DP spot.
Of course
seattle provided you don’t need to use a DP tag on a DM.
Not if we get Philipp Lahm
Tiny German’s for the win!
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Aug 11, 2011 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is a gentleman I'd DP!
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Are you telling me 10 years ago you wouldn't have tried to lock up Roberto Carlos?
Free kick wizard plus overlapping runs with the force of the Mongol hordes… I certainly would.
If the team
was perfectly fine everywhere else but Outside back then sure. Normally DP on the outside backs is 2nd to last position i would use a DP on.
on the right, maybe, but on the left? it's hard to find quality there
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
They way I used failure in the last thread is meing misconstrued
I wasn’t “calling for heads” or saying that the front office as a whole is a failure. But there are some simple facts at play here.
We have known since the opening match that this team had a DP slot, an abundance of resources and a product that is as appealing as anything short of a premier European league. (Hey, wanna come to one of the greatest cities on earth and play infront of 36,000 founds every match? No income tax either, in case you’re worried)
That’s almost 5 months to the day now that the FO has had to add talent. And the argument that “they can’t find the right fit” is just bogus—the world is literally burgeoning with talented soccer players. Adding talent and building for the future are not mutually exclusive in anyway.
Nothing to me could more clearly be a failure
Just to follow the logic...
If “they can’t find the right fit” is “bogus”, you must mean the sounders are … what? Lying? I’m curious what people think the Sounders are doing if they don’t find someone?
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Some players will me unitnerested in comming here..
no matter what we offered them. Even players on our own team want to go play in Europe (Montero). This is not the soccer “destination” that you make it out to be. Yes this is the best place in the MLS. But it is still MLS. Its getting better but, its not great yet.
Money talks. Just ask Beckham and Henry
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Just ask two guys who have already peaked
And are no longer starting caliber for the teams they once played for?
Be cynical all you want, both have been tremendous for their teams
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I was more trying to point out the reason why the money talked so much
They are past their aspirations of making it big. The best they can do now is top a lower league and in that case the MLS is very good place to land.
To me, that's part of what "right fit" means...
They couldn’t find someone who they thought was worth they money they were asking for.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Let me flip the question back on you
Do you believe that they’ve exhausted the list of forwards that are: willing, affordable, and that will help the team today and into the future?
That seems like a long, long list.
True, there is an almost infinite number of players in the world to choose from.
However, there is a finite scouting budget. You don’t just sign someone on a lark because they have good stats. They have to scout these players. Talk to agents. Meet with trainers and coaches.
Its not like they do a google search for free agent forwards, sort by estimated market value, and start cold calling till someone says yes.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
I'm well aware that they have to scout and court these players
But if they made a list of players they were targeting to scout and possibly sign and they were unsuccessful in grabbing any of them that would be a _________.
Failure. Bad personel work.
a disappointment
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
letdown?
miscarriage?
catastrophe?
boo-boo?
Let’s analyze the connotations and subtext of a bunch of synonyms for the same concept some more, nothing better to do till Saturday’s game : P
by Philip Mueller on Aug 11, 2011 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Whatever, bro
Just do an attributes seach with a minimum of 85 speed like I do on FIFA. Then when they pop up, hit triangle and the good ones all show up at the top. Simple.
by Kyle Ritter on Aug 11, 2011 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perfect!
Then give them a really long contract so they accept less money, since there’s no way you’ll play 10 actuall franchise seasons!
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Aug 11, 2011 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think there is a list of prioritized players that Hanauer and the FO have idenitified.
I think that list has not been made public but Adrian has mentioned 8 to 10 on a few occasions. They have approached/offered to those players, or most of them at least, and those frees are weighing options with other offers and playing the wait for the best offer game. I think at times the Sounders are/were used as a negotiation tool to secure other deals.
I think that resources (even those as ample as the Sounders) limit how long a quality list can be. Should that list have been 16 instead of 8 to 10?
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
Totally Agree on These Points...
There are many players in Europe who entertain MLS possibilities with no real intention of ever coming so that they have some bargaining power with European top flight clubs. In addition, there are many players who would genuinely consider coming…but only as a fallback. They are waiting to see IF a top flight deal will materialize before considering going to a lesser league…be it Championship in England, Belgian, Swiss, or MLS. Until the majors figure out their situations out, we wait. Alpha dogs eat first…and we’re not Alpha. Fortunately for us, it’s a big meal and there should be plenty of good bits left when they are done if we’re in the right position. That’s where we’ve just gotta trust the FO and let them do their thing. I, for one, remain hopeful.
by exSlacker on Aug 11, 2011 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Failure" is a good word here (if nothing comes to pass)
The “failure” is limited here to whatever the FO have (or had) up its sleeve. [Rant On] AH said at NKufo’s departure that it left us a lot of “options” with money and DP available, 3/15. Then Z goes down for the year, 4/23, OBW goes down indefinitely, 4/28 (and is still not fully back). Here we are at the window 2 days of 8/14 (they really likely need to get any international deal done Sat at latest to allow for a physical and ITC request with FIFA on Sun). Have we replaced Nkufo, Z, or OBW? This wasn’t a one month window, this was a five month window—recall that we signed Nkufo last March for the July window. In five months, they could not arrange deals-really? If we miss this window, we would have to rely on MLS to provide any bodies that could replace those three. Yes we are winning, yes we are great, and yes we need bodies. If we let the intl window close with no one, then either (1) we had a plan that did not work over 5 months or (2) we had no plan, and we are letting it ride. Didn’t they teach you in school not to wait to do your paper until the night before its due? [Rant Off] Let’s hope they do something here as I would hate to rely upon MLS for reinforcements.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 11, 2011 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
all fair points
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
You summed up ALL my frustrations better than I could. Thanks.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions
A plan that did not work over five months?
I thought we were through talking about the Chivas friendly last year?
One reason not to come here.
If you are prime age 26-30 and from Europe, you might have a hard time getting called up for your national team. We have already seen this for some players in the MLS.
by MurrayD on Aug 11, 2011 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let me toss this on it's ear
Would you rather resign Rosales for what he’s worth or take mystery the DP behind curtain number 2?
Put another way, how thrilled would you be with a DP that performed as well (and blended in the clubhouse as well) as Rosales?
If we sign a name DP, will we be able to keep Rosales? He’s playing as well as any player in MLS. We’re getting him for a song this year. Can we hope he sticks around or is his departure a sure thing?
by Jack Brando on Aug 11, 2011 3:54 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm sure that's at least part of the equation
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 11, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
he seems to like it here
I’ve never been a pro athlete (surprising, right?) but I’ve been around a small handful. Happy ones tend to want to stay places. And with the nomadic run he had to get here, I would think he would prefer stability.
But we’d be foolish to think he’s not going to want a bunch more cash. Judging by nothing other than banter and cheering, I think the fans here would hate seeing him go more than they would hate not signing someone right now.
Not every good player needs to be made a DP
As good as Rosales is, don’t forget he came to us looking for a job. He’s done well and certainly deserves a raise, but we can slowly bring him into six-figures territory while still keeping it fair for both parties.
We can’t make every good player on the team a DP, obviously. We have to pick and choose when to use it, but I’d be more inclined to use it to lure overseas talent to us – talent that might need that extra $ to come to the MLS.
If Rosales was willing to play for ~$42k this year, I’m sure he wouldn’t complain with “only” something like $100k (or anything less than DP salary) next year.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions
True that he came to us looking for a job, but he has very clearly proven that he is a quality MLS player. I don’t expect him to give us a loyalty discount. His need to find a job was priced into his current contract, doesn’t mean his future ones should be hampered by that.
Boo! Tomorrow AM. I want all things now!
Don't disagree, but that doesn't mean he needs to go from $42k to $335k+ in one year
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
True, unless...
…some other credible team offers him $335k+ as a free come November.
One thing I'm curious about
Does anyone here wish we had made any of the signings other MLS teams have made during the transfer window? I would think that those signings are as good example as any of what was available to an MLS team, as far as price availability, and willingness to come stateside. Personally, no one looks that interesting.
Eh
Personally I liked Houston’s bagging of Diego Forlan. New York also did nice to swing Schweinsteiger at the last minute. (MLS 2017)
Seattle's trash
is Houston’s treasure?
by Derek R on Aug 11, 2011 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would have
For the 30 seconds it took to read the article titled “Seattle make a Costly deal” to realize that it was actually a good thing.
He's a decent player for Honduras
but I discovered he’s done little at club level. For a striker, he’s not a frequent goal scorer.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Neither was the new Revs DP
Curious as to why these guys were deemed DP-worthy? Guessing it is due to transfer fees…
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Transfer Fees are so in right now.
In years past MLS teams never paid Transfer Fees, We just looked for Frees. There are several DPs out there making little money in salary, but their fees made them a DP. I think a rule change is in order to help teams bring in good talent easier. Especially young talent. A young player is much less likely to be available on a Free Tansfer. The selling club will want to get somthing for the player and move them before their current contract expires. To bring good young talent into the league a rule change is in order. I dont know exactly how i would do it to make it fair, but there has to be a way.
Teams should be allowed to pay transfer fees out of pocket, not counting against cap
This would allow MLS teams to be competitive in the world market while still maintaining the parity of the salary cap system & DP rules. It would free up some DP spots for many teams that have players as DPs only by virtue of higher transfer fees, ultimately bringing more talent to the MLS.
I can’t think of a legitimate hole in this idea either. Teams can’t “cheat” by paying players lower salaries and instead paying artificially higher transfer fees because those fees go to the losing club, not the player. Plus, artificially lowering the player’s contract would be pointless since you’d be only dinged for $335k anyway. Finally you have Garber & Co. overseeing all incoming moves which could act as the judge against any funny business.
By this idea, the only thing holding teams back from spending big in the transfer market would be the owner’s desire to open his wallet. Why not?
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
How does allowing teams to go around the salary cap still maintain the parity of the salary cap system?
by yuniform on Aug 12, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I could imagine transfer fee allocation money
To keep the transfer hits from directly impacting the salary cap but still enforcing parity.
But I agree, parity is what makes this league great. Who wants to watch a league where the only game you might lose is to the #2 team.
We have to be carefull not to end up like this.
“A new season will kick off this weekend. Manchester United will probably win.”
and
“West Bromwich Albion vs. Manchester United
4:00 PM GMT (11:00 AM EST); The Hawthornes
Well this doesn’t seem fair at all.”
Quotes from this post. It is actually pretty funny.
Guessing none of you guys actually read the post
The salary cap is still in place – teams still have to conform. How does that remove the parity? I definitely do not want a MLB or EPL model of a handful of contenders, but I don’t see how that comes about through this.
The difference is fringe DP-cost guys like Flaco are signed for their regular non-DP salaries, thus freeing up the DP spots for bigger talent (think salaries that wouldn’t clear the DP number absent a transfer fee).
If you think about it no player would have a $10M transfer fee but only a $200k salary – so the parity is still there. Teams still only have 3 DP spots.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, subject line sounded rude. Didn't mean to be
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Because it gives richer teams an advantage
The Sounders could afford to pay a team more to release a player they already had under contract. We could afford more guys like Flaco, smaller teams can’t. It gives bigger teams more options.
Richer teams are richer for a reason
This gives something back to the profitable teams for bringing the riches to the MLS – but it does so without being too unfair to other teams since everyone still has to follow the salary cap.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
The richer teams can already attract bigger and better players
That’s their advantage. And they can also afford better grounds/coaches/training facilities.
This would substantially decrease parity and substantially increase the amount of money FOs had to spend to compete.
The first actually wouldn’t be terrible; maybe it’s just because I’m from a club that would benefit, but I think MLS proves that too much of a good thing is a bad thing, and that the league could stand to have just a bit more stabiltiy from year to year so you can actually enjoy your success once you’ve risen to the top. Statistically, we’ve still got a long ways to go before we hit NFL’s level of parity, which I think is ideal.
The latter kills it even if you’re of my opinion about parity, which MLS’ management doesn’t seem to share.
After all that, it looks like this will happen after all
Adrian hinted to new DP rules that allow teams to acquire these younger players with having it not count as much against the cap. That sounds exactly like what I was alluding to with this post last week.
I’m not going to pretend I am that smart, but it is a good idea. ;-)
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 15, 2011 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
How many teams added what we need though?
There were several good additions at positions we’re not looking for.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions
He's looked very good
And plays a position we need. I also like Jarju although he wouldn’t fill a need for us. Oh well, can’t get them all…
Doh! Momentary lapse. Agreed, that was one of the guys
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
until my dying breath
I will warn people about the messianic complex that develops around so-called “star strikers”.
the vast wealth that has been sqaundered in international transfer markets the world around in the quixotic quest for this strange beast is simply astounding. The Sounders already have a DP at forward. There are literally dozens of things they could do to improve the quality of their 18- and 23-deep rosters as they take on multiple competitions year after year.
Or we can all hope and pray for a forward, and rend our garments in anguish when He doesn’t arrive…
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 11, 2011 8:55 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
I don't want the next soccer Messiah...
…I want a TF who can crack a starting XI. There has to be someone in that vast soccer universe that is a better TF than Roger Levesque.
by Dizzo on Aug 12, 2011 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree
Now we just need to find the one that’s better then Levesque, but not quite good enough to really push higher leagues. Someone willing/wanting to play in the MLS, but not tied up in a big contract. Someone who AH believes will work well the team, and be worth the possible DP money.
personally...
I don’t understand why everyone thinks this is so easy. EVERY team wants a clinical finisher.
EVERY team wants a star. But even as ‘rich’ as the Sounders are, they are in what, they 10th or 12th best league in the world(?), in a relative soccer backwater. Yes, the situation is improving, but these mystical star strikers know they only have a few years in their prime and it behooves them to try and get the most that they can for their short turn. AH has FAR more of a personal investment in this team than any of us do. Why wouldn’t he and his staff be doing everything possible to sign someone?
You don’t always get what you want in life. And even if you do, you might have to wait awhile.
Go back to the beginning of the season and almost every article on SAH was about how much depth the Sounders had added. The FO has added new talent, done right by the Academy kids and has IMO, built of the future. This cost time AND money.
Personally, I feel a steady, prudent improvement of the Sounders ‘product’ is better than a win-all-costs and flame out approach. Missing this transfer window does not automatically doom this season and may even work out better for us in the long run.
Terrible's what it is.
-Big George
by Stacius on Aug 11, 2011 10:10 PM PDT reply actions 6 recs
Who said it has to be "win at all costs?"
It’s not an either-or proposition. We can still grow the youth academies and sign a DP striker. No one said it was easy, either – but that said, they have an open DP slot and have known for ~5 months what position to look for.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Well...
With people throwing around terms like ‘disappointment’ and ‘failure’, perhaps I was reacting to that.
What I wanna put across is that AH has millions of dollars and a serious, concerted effort to improve this team. He’s not out every day giving us specific details of the search, but it IS part of his JOB.
What I also want to reiterate is that is doesn’t matter (at least to me) how long this search has taken. There are qualified people out there looking for jobs for longer than five months, maybe you’ve been one of them. Does that make someone a failure or a disappointment? No. We do what we can, and when the time and opportunity arrive, we take it.
Sounders fans are a passionate group, but sometimes (I feel) we need to step back and let the FO do it’s job. They have the same goals we do…a winning team. And unlike us, they deal with all the details. I’m not implying the FO is infallible, just that they’ve been at this longer and deeper than most of us on this board.
Terrible's what it is.
-Big George
easy
LAGalaxy and FCDallas both made moves to improve. If they can do so can we.
by Ryan R Ray on Aug 12, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I sometimes thing scouting for a league like MLS must be much more difficult then scouting for a top league
They can get any player they want if the price is right. We have to find players that are better then what we have, but not so much better that they feel they can make it in a higher league. Its an interesting conundrum.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Aug 12, 2011 7:44 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Today, Sigi made reference to the NFL Draft's "BPA" strategy
which was interesting – maybe telling? (BPA = best player available)
Sigi specifically cited Mauro as an example, saying the Sounders weren’t looking for a winger but found one. Sigi made a point to say sometimes you find a player at a position that isn’t of need, but the player is so skillful you can’t pass up the opportunity to sign him.
It’s a very good point, but not one you’d think would be brought up unless there might be something to it.
Mayer’s Article: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soundersfcblog/2015892184_schmid_on_the_transfer_window.html
Thoughts?
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
New question
Would this transfer window be a success if we pick up JPA? Would it depend on the price?
Rumor mill Friday
I was going to drink a shot today for every rumor that I hear, but I want be sobered up enough to drink again at the game tomorrow. :) Rumors so far are NYRB, SKC and LA-Gag-axy are shopping players. I don’t think JPA would be a good fit here, although, it might be an interesting pairing with Montero. No way for DP wages though.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 12, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Two Colombians leading the attack
with another leading the back line and a fourth buried on the bench? Sounds alright to me. I think I’d be willing to part with a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.
The whole reason for this is that it is being widely reported on Twitter that LAG has come to terms with Robbie Keane, so they have to move JPA (can’t see Landycakes or Becks going anywhere).
With all these Colombians
we’ll need to add Sofia Vergara as our sideline reporter, or at least get her to accept a golden scarf on behalf of her country.
by agtk on Aug 12, 2011 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, for all that is good and holy
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Great, now I have to take another shot...
http://www.glenndavissoccer.com/soccer-news/la-galaxy-looks-set-to-acquire-robbie-keane/ Now I will just have to stay drinking all night to make the Chivas game. The Twitterverse also says JPA is looking to go back east. It would depend on the deal, but we could do a lot worse than him. Is Carlos Valderaama looking for an assistant coaching job?
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 12, 2011 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
What if...
The Robbie Keane rumors were true, except that he was headed here?
That would make me happy.
by MurrayD on Aug 12, 2011 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sooo happy
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 12, 2011 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Hopefully he doesn't talk to Ljungberg about the refs
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Were they at Celtic at the same time? I though Keane left before Freddie got there.
If not maybe Ljungberg put in a good word for us. I will have to fly to scotland and thank him personaly
NO
We do not want him. Kevin McCauley will tell you.
by chrisperry1983 on Aug 12, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
JPA would be a good 1/2 year signing
He’s still a big upgrade over Levesque. Also, he’s good at PKs and set pieces,
And how big a smile
Would adorn that face if he scored on LA for us?
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 12, 2011 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
He wont play on Turf.
JPA is ending up here.
Didn't you hear
The MLS cup is in LA anyway…
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 12, 2011 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
JPA wants to go back to the East Coast
I don’t think it’s an option for him to come here. But if it was, I’d only be interested in a loan for the rest of the season.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Aug 12, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Fail
Yes. If LAG or FCDallas (who both made moves in the window) win either the MLS Cup or the Supporters shield and we move no moves … people will see it as a failure.
If we lose the Open Cup too then I would agree them. There is no reason better teams with less support should get better while we stand pat.
JPA to Chivas is latest Rumor
Everyone, take a drink.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 12, 2011 2:52 PM PDT reply actions
LOL
He would not even have to move.
No way JPA comes here. He does not like Turf. Im wondering if that could be a big problem when trying to sign a big name player.
Absolutely
Rightly or wrongly, turf is viewed as bad. Why do you think Chelsea, Barca and ManU made us put down grass for the friendlies?
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 12, 2011 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Whoa, Keane for $3M?
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Tottenham-Robbie-Keane-set-shock-move-Los-Angeles-Galaxy-has-agreed-3million-a-year-contract-article784685.html It’s the Mirror, so it must be true.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 12, 2011 3:06 PM PDT reply actions
Correction, that's 6M pounds
or about $5M a year
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 12, 2011 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
non-Mirror stories
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/sports/2011/08/12/source-keane-to-sign-with-galaxy/
And one by our very own Jeremiah! http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2011/8/12/2360145/mls-transfer-rumor-robbie-keane-la-galaxy
by chrisperry1983 on Aug 12, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Yea but they are seem to be from the same source.
Still not convinced. Moving JPA will be a big problem.
Can LA sign him at all
If JPA isn’t moved first? Can you have >3 DP’s on a roster even for 12 hours?
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
No
you can’t have more than 3 active DPs. JPA will have to be moved before they can have Keane become active on their roster.
Breaking news!
MLS set to announce new DP roster rules raising the limit to 4!
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 12, 2011 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
But only for teams that play at the Home Depot Center
And that rhyme with “fallacy.”
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Now breaking?
Chivas to unveil new club name, rumored to be LA Rhapsody
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 12, 2011 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
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