Sounders FC 0 - Chivas USA 0: Penalty Agony
by sidereal on Aug 13, 2011 8:07 PM PDT
in Sounders: MLS Regular Season
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Today's scoreless draw against Chivas had many defining moments, but the one freshest in everyone's mind is the missed penalty call by Kevin Stott in the waning minutes. I say 'missed' not 'potential' or 'disputed' because the challenge that sent Neagle over was a foul anywhere on the pitch in any league in any competition in the world. It was so obvious that it was a reflex call — something a ref shouldn't even have to think about. All the more surprising is that Stott was maybe 3 yards from the play when it happened. He can hardly claim he didn't have a good look at it. And we all remember that Stott is the same official who yellow carded Zakuani for diving rather than awarding an equally clear penalty last season in Houston, which you can relive here if you're a masochist. What more can you say? What can you say to that at all? (But as a point of clarification, Stott didn't signal for the penalty and then take it back. The signal for a goal kick is basically in the same area, which is stupid. FIFA should consider coming up with signals more communicative than pointing in a direction, but probably won't because FIFA is incompetent).
Sadly, that wasn't the only penalty heartache of the day. Stott awarded the Sounders a penalty on a Chivas handball (that was perversely a little borderline, to be honest) and Alvaro Fernandez continued a well-worn Sounders tradition by missing it — sending it off the post to bounce off the back of Dan Kennedy's head and then out. Penalties were a huge problem for Seattle over the last two years — arguably costing the team the Supporters Shield in 2009. Seattle's looked better recently, but is still 4 of 6 this season, which is not an impressive conversion rate.
Penalty kicks weren't the only failures around the box. Despite completely dominating the chances against a Chivas team that was clearly content to sit back and counter with slow players who aren't particularly effective at countering, Seattle couldn't drive a goal home. Pat Noonan failed to get enough on a ball into an open net, which gave Kennedy time to make a diving save. He also headed an early chance over the bar. Tyson Wahl shanked an uncontested shot on the left side of the box. Fredy Montero dawdled too long on a ball when he was through the defense and it was tackled away from him. Fernandez had the best non-penalty chance of the night when he tried to deflect a Mauro Rosales cross in on the far post but Kennedy, who I'm pretty sure didn't know anything about it, managed to save it with a shin.
The inability to score from a pile of chances combined with the unfortunate news that O'Brian White has had a setback in his recovery from a blood clot put in stark relief the team's need for a reliable finisher. The international transfer window closes tomorrow. By some reports, the team already has to have submitted paperwork by yesterday to make the deadline (though I suspect MLS would bend over backwards to let one of their teams sign a big name player from abroad). Though a lack of moves this weekend wouldn't mean the team is prevented from making changes — there's always the possibility of a trade within the league — it would have to be acknowledged as an enormous missed opportunity for a team that glaringly has a need and has the resources to fill it.
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Transfer Window
With the 14th being on a Sunday, does it technically mean that the transfer window is open till 11:59pm on Monday? Could be wrong, but I thought that this was the case.
Disappointing match, and while it was a bad no-call on the PK. We should of put one of our chances away (which I know is preaching to the choir here).
I am hoping for a signing, but I do not see one coming. I think the FO tried to do a signing, but it did not work. With that said, I expect us to Sell and then buy in the off-season.
Here’s hoping it does not come to bite us in the end (Playoffs) as the O’Brian news is disappointing and I expect that he like Zak, is gone the rest of this season.
by TheDarkPassenger on Aug 13, 2011 8:41 PM PDT reply actions
Penalty debacle aside.
The game today was the most glaring example of our biggest weakness. Finishing chances would put this team at the top of the League without a doubt.
Sign a damn forward already!
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Aug 13, 2011 8:41 PM PDT reply actions
We ARE second in the league in goals per game.
I think performances like this one stick out because they’re so frustrating. Really the only results I can think of where we dropped points because we didn’t finish our chances were the trio of opening games and this one. All teams have performances like this one.
I think it’s accurrate to say that the Sounders probably have below-average finishing and manage their great GPG by creating a ton of chances, but I also think that fans have consistently overreacted to our lack of finishing prowess.
If you combined our number of chances with even average finishing
we’d be blowing teams away consistently and our defense would be almost irrelevant
Nos Audietis
by sidereal on Aug 13, 2011 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We were lucky last week, today Chivas was lucky, and that's how it goes sometimes
For example, that ball that hit the keeper after missed penalty goes in almost every time. Today, it did not. Or, Flaco’s chance 15 minutes before the end. I am sure it is goal on any other day. We will get payback some other time. No cause for any panic. We just need to continue to play well and create chances, and goals will come.
Would they come at a slightly higher rate with a more composed forward?
Because that would be great
Nos Audietis
Sounders are 5th in the league for shots converted with 11.6%
Only teams beating us are Colorado (14%), New York (12.7%), DC (12.5%), and LA (12.2%)
Yeah
We had a really good run there for a while.
I thought I recalled seeing that our shots-converted rate was right in line with the 10% figure that had been tossed around at the beginning of the season as the “mean.” Early in the season, we were way under that due to bad luck. We regressed to the mean, and then got lucky for a few games.
I'm not sure how good of a measure that is of finishing
There are many chances that can be blown without being registered as a shot.
Shouldn't use Zakuani case as an example.
The only thing the ref did wrong is give a yellow card to Zakuani and miss the offsides. The play should have been called offsides on Zach before all the other crap went down. Zach was offsides on that play (watch the video) and play should have ended there.
He made a bad call In this game, and Kevin Stott should not be a ref in MLS, much less at the High school level.
@cosman68 follow on twitter if you want.
It wasn't offside because it was a backpass by a Houston player
Regardless, the play was live. So Stott saw Zakuani get cleaned out by Tally Hall and carded him for diving. I think that’s a great example.
Nos Audietis
by sidereal on Aug 13, 2011 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Untill this mistake, I thought he had a decent game
To be honest, I was getting frustrated with our fans and players protesting every decision today even though the ref got majority of his call right. It reminded me of Ljungberg and Marshall chasing refs after each call.
I always boo calls against my team.
I boo LOUDLY if they are actually bad calls. It is called being a fan (though I acknowledge not all fans will do the same).
What sidereal said
Since I happened to grab a copy of LotG the other day, p33 states:
A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his own team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
* interfering with play or
* interfering with an opponent or
* gaining an advantage by being in that position
Only two subs used today?
Why was Sigi waiting with subs today? Usually, if you are trying to change something, you bring the first sub around 60, the second around 75, and the last one in the last 10 minutes of the game. Nate came around 68th minute, and Neagle just played last 10 minutes. I was sure Sigi will sub El Flaco, but he took Montero out. Plus, the third sub was never used.
Fuck MLS referees. Killing the sport, one game at a time.
I fucking hate you Mariners
It seemed like there should have been a lot more fouls called today than there were.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Or obvious 'hard' fouls that weren't called followed by 'soft' fouls almost immediately. It's so damn common, it's sad
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Aug 13, 2011 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you for putting my thoughts into words on the internet.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
A few thoughts on the first Sounders (MLS) match I've ever attended:
1. Rosales and Alonso are awesome and even more fun to watch in person.
2. The match atmosphere was as good as advertised and a lot of fun.
3. Yes that was an egregious non-call at the end but we completely dominated that game and probably should have put it away much earlier. Seriously how many more chance do we need before we put one in the back of the net.
All in all, despite a disappointing result, but a great experience. I’ll be coming back for more, and I won’t be happy with just a draw.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
I don't know that we actually dominated the game.
We had more shots, but they had 55% possession, more corners, and 82% passing accuracy . Watching at home it did not seem like a dominating performance by the Sounders.
Maybe not dominate.
It just felt as if the Sounders were in control for most of the match. Probably because we did more with our possession, at least to my very untrained eye.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Excellent choice on your profile picture by the way.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
A lot of short passes
especially in the defensive midfield. That will add up to possession and passing accuracy, but it doesn’t create much danger.
Nos Audietis
We had much better chances
They created one or two decent chances, and majority of their possession came between 35th and 45th minute of the first half when they had a real nice spell of possession. There was one instance that had at least 20 passes exchanges (that resulted in backheel pass that put their player in a good chance).
COME ON SEATTLE!
FIGHT AND WIN!
We will be just fine if we don’t get anybody. Let’s not let this damper our spirits.
We dominated today. 9/10 similar performances we win.
"a team that glaringly has a need and has the resources to fill it."
I came away from today’s match feeling like we need to do something about our fullbacks, more than anything… don’t get me wrong, Noonan is little more than a place-holder and it is always frustrating to have such an ordinary player at what is supposed to be a superstar position, but that is on Sigi for not trying to move people around and try something new, defaulting to a veteran who he feels won’t screw anything up, rather than really be creative. We can carry on about missed chances all we want – and one of those is certainly a shocking missed penalty by Stott – but this is a team that wasn’t particularly sharp in many aspects of the game today, and blaming a lack of finishing, and praying for a messianic striker to apparently save us from ousellves, is just too simplisitic. Despite our apparent domination, Chivas put more shots on target, had more corners, committed less fouls, completed more passes, had a higher pass completion %-age, and had more possession. These are just the facts. We had a good little run, but maybe the law of parity is going to catch up to us a bit, and maybe dreams of pushing LA for the Shield were a little too hopeful. Who knows, really, there is a lot of soccer left this year for this team…
BTW, LA is a team that has gotten very little out of the forward position this year, and they are looking about to lap the field in the Shield race…
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 13, 2011 10:48 PM PDT reply actions
almost forgot
they won more duels as well…
just sayin ;-)
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 13, 2011 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Out of curiosity
that is on Sigi for not trying to move people around and try something new, defaulting to a veteran who he feels won’t screw anything up, rather than really be creative.
What would you suggest he try?
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
I think Neagle would deserve a look
I’d prefer him over Noonan in any case. Skill-wise they’re pretty similar, but Noonan is glacial whereas Neagle has decent speed, which is extremely useful in breaking bunkering teams.
okay, just brainstorming here
try to get some more speed on the wings. Maybe move Rosales into a forward role with Montero and try Fucito out there, or at least bring Neagle on. I feel like he should have made a switch at halftime, when it was clear we weren’t really breaking them down. I feel like the interplay between the fullbacks and wide mids was lacking. On the left you just had a too-slow Wahl and Fernandez, who is technically gifted but plays with no pace. On the right you had Rosales, who works hard but is hardly going to set speed records himself, and too many missed plays by Riley.
If you don’t have forwards then don’t use forwards, I know that seems weird but run out Montero as a false nne with maybe Roslaes and Fucito has wingers, allow Fernandez to play a more central role (which I think is more natural for him) with Friberg and Alonso as a holder in behind them.
But there are limitations, of course. like I said I just don’t feel like we have the fullbacks. Gonzo was brought here to be a classic marauding left back, and he seemed to be for a time, but Wahl has taken over because he is a better defender and good on set pieces, but he is just… slow. Riley did not look particularly sharp in the attack today. I also feel like Fernandez needs to hit the gym ;-)
but the morale of the story is there are things to try but I just feel like Sigi just has too rigid of an approach; he feels like players have specific positions and is largely unwilling to move people around and mix things up.
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 13, 2011 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Is now really the time to be mixing it up?
It made sense back when we lost Nkufo, Zakuani, and OBW. But now we are 3rd in the West with just 11 games left. Changing things could really throw the team off balance.
you are missing my point
in this conversation “mixing it up” is making 2nd-half switches to throw something different out there and get the result, which good managers at good clubs are consistently able to do around the world. This discussion exists within the context of today’s match, but if you want to look at the bigger picture, it is possible to make some adjustments and provide some new twists without completely revolutionizing your overall approach. The idea that changing things can throw a team off balance is absurd to me. Soccer teams are like languages, when they have stopped evolving and responding to changes, they are essentially dead. Players should be able to understand subtle shifts in roles, that collectively give the team a whole new look, and managers should understand how this all works. if this is not the case, then something is wrong.
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 14, 2011 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
also with CCL and Open Cup coming
we will be playing 2 games a week. so we will be changing up the lineup a lot
I will preface this by saying
I mean this conversationally, not argumentatively, but hasn’t Sigi tried much of this already? We’ve seen Rosales on both wings, the middle and WF. Flaco has, albeit briefly, played in the middle (where I too would like to see him more). Neagle has played one of the forward spots late in a match or two. Noonan has played on the wing, in the middle and up top. Yesterday we saw Sigi bring on Neagle (probably too late though), flip Flaco to the right and move Rosales to WF.
Sigi’s trying to use the pieces he has I think, it’s just that they are limited. I do agree with you that he needs start bring in subs earlier (halftime would be too early though) and use all three. I don’t understand his reluctance to use his third sub.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
so what did he do yesterday?
Jaqua for Noonan in a straight swap, 69’
Neagle for Montero, shifting Rosales into Montero’s spot, Fernandez to the right, and Neagle at left, 83’
net affect: two essentially like for like swaps.
Yes, Neagle won a penalty that wasn’t called
So Sigi didn’t really change anything yesterday, he didn’t try a new tactic or formation, and he waited until awfully late. He said himself they were outplayed in the first half, so make a change, send a message to all 11 guys, not just the one getting subbed off.
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 14, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I wont claim to know how LA plays him
But after glancing through the LA blog, Donovan seems to play forward about 50% of the time. He also has an absurdly high 35% conversion rate. Which easily beats out Montero’s 9%.
This result was frustrating
But overall pretty much irrelevant. We’ve got a 99% chance of making the playoffs, and that’s where the real action is in MLS.
And now, for the ridiculous but awesome thought of the day, Samuel Eto’o might potentially leave Inter. In a perfect world, Hanauer makes a flurry of phone calls tomorrow and works out a deal with him as our third DP. Yeah, I know. Ridiculous, but there aren’t a lot of players more clinical in front of goal than Eto’o.
Sky sports is saying this am that Chelsea is ready to axe Torres
If we are dreaming…
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 13, 2011 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions
he played well today so i dont think he will be going anywhere
i wish some of our dreams could come true
He's going to Anz$i
Plus, If we arent willing to pony up for Tagoe’s salary, how will we beat the 15 million euro a year bundle they are offering him in Dagestan?
La Vecchia Signora Forever!
I'm truly trying
to see the big picture here. We’re still one of the 4 or 5 best teams in MLS, and the best on any given day. So how come I feel so…… forlorn about the season?
I guess it’s a case of unrealistic expectations. I expected that Seattle would somehow revolutionize the way the game is managed in the front office and played on the field. I guess I thought that we’d always be just a little ahead of the arc, always pushing the boundary. I guess I also thought that we’d find ways to bring just a little better caliber player here. And, by and large, we’ve done all those things. The one thing I never expected was to see such a classy organization go after a quality player and get utterly and completely shut down. Might feel better if we knew the reasons why we were failing (transparency anyone?), but we’re left to guess. The field? Seattle too small-town, USA? Who knows? But it all leaves me feeling a whole lot of despair.
Then seeing LA sign Keane….. a guy who I believe will rip this league a new one for at least two years provided he stays somewhat healthy stings in the worst kind of way, because it feels like we’re none of the things I’ve mentioned above. It’s left me pretty deflated about our organization and our ability to be cutting edge. No, I don’t want to do anything silly, Adrian. I just want you to work on multi-signings at one time so that when one falls through, you’ve got the other one lined up.
So…… we’re still a good team. It’s still a very good organization. But this has been one hell of a trying year for anyone who cares about the Sounders.
LA can have Keane
don’t understand the complex we have for aging strikers washed out of Europe… not a way to build a League or a Team. Too much money…
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Aug 14, 2011 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not that the Sounders are a bad team, it just doesn't seem like they're improving
over previous seasons. Yes, they’re almost sure to make the playoffs, something that they accomplished twice before. But, will they make it past the first round, which they weren’t able to do before? Will they even score a goal in the playoffs? Will they make it out of the CCL group stage? I can’t say that I’m brimming with confidence. If you recall, the Seattle Mariners recorded a league record setting 116 wins in 2001, then were knocked out in the first round of the playoffs. I don’t want the Sounders to just make the playoffs. I want a run for the Supporters Shield until the very end. The FO has been duly credited with the team’s success over the first two seasons. For the them to be given any more credit, they need to make improvements that translate into results.
by Eastside Ajacied on Aug 14, 2011 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
and I really do remind
myself every day that there are at least 10-12 teams worth of fans who would give anything to be in our position. Let’s face it…. I’m spoiled.
Perspective
The 3rd year version of the Sounders in MLS is an improved team. It took a herculean run of form at the end of last season for the Sounders to qualify for the MLS playoffs. This year that isn’t in doubt. Last year the Sounders scored 48 points for the entire season. This year they have already earned 42 with 10 games still to be played. The team is deeper and considerably better positioned to compete in multiple competitions.
The fact that a third year franchise is a legitimate contender for the SS is not a meager feat. Toronto has been in the league for 4 years and doesn’t even begin to touch the success the Sounders have enjoyed. Are the Sounders likely to win the SS this year? Probably not. Do they have weaknesses? Yes. Would we all like to see them bring in a quality striker to compliment Montero and shore up their defensive liabilities? Duh. We’re fans. We want it all.
But to claim that this team isn’t improved is not fair to the efforts of the FO. The loss of Zakuani and OBW has had an impact on the offensive tools the Sounders have available. Imagine where the team would be with those two pieces in the lineup. We all want the FO to find another player for Sigi to inject into the mix. We all want Sigi to continue looking for a more effective combination up front than Levesque or Noonan. Fucito has wonderful skills but he doesn’t seem to bring out the best in FM. Sigi is searching for chemistry. Maybe some combination involving Neagle will be the answer? At this point, I’d certainly like to see Neagle get a start with FM, Flaco, Rosales and Friberg and see what they can come up with.
Yet, for all of this, the Sounders are currently in third place in the league and only one point behind second place FC Dallas. Last year they finished in sixth. This is a better team. We want them to be in first. But to claim that they are not better isn’t a fair assessment of their performance.
by Abbott Smith on Aug 14, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I guess I mustn't care about the Sounders then
Honestly, the most trying thing for me this year has been reading endless breast-beating about our manifold “failures”. Our “failure” to be have a far better season this year than either of the two that preceeded it. Our “failure” to maintain our challenge in every competition we’re involved in. Our “failure” to be determined to sign the right player instead of signing a name to address the frankly minimal gaps of our squad.
The only real failing I’ve seen this year is a failure to truly appreciate what we have here, to revel in the luxury of getting to see one of the most, if not the most watchable teams in the league week after week. For anyone who really cares about the sounders, this year hasn’t been trying, it’s been a joy.
by Targaff on Aug 14, 2011 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're right
And us locals should appreciate it more. It’s not like we’ve been spoiled by the success of our other pro teams
This is where I'm at
After 30 years of watching the Seahawks and Mariners disappoint this town year after year, I saw in the Sounders a FO that cared about winning, the building blocks being placed to win, and success out of the gate. Are they expectations? Or hopes? Wishes? Pipe dreams? I don’t know, but just once in my life, I’d like to see a fucking parade in this town with a winning team rolling down 4th Ave carrying a goddamn league trophy. The last championship in Seattle was in ‘79 or ’80 I think (no, women’s basketball doesn’t count). The Sounders have given me hope where I’ve grown to accept mediocrity and failure from our other franchises. Forgive me if I’m a little impatient.
by central_scrutinizer on Aug 14, 2011 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if bring someone, it takes some time to become familiar with the system and other players
People are expecting that a new forward just show up and start scoring goals. It is not going to happen. If Keane scored 1/3 of his chances when playing for West Ham, West Ham will be still playing in Premiership. I do not think he is an upgrade over Angel.
I am satisfied with the season so far. I was a little bit concern during the first part of the season, but it looks much better now.
Nkufo made a quick impact
as well as a quick departure. Also, there are some other key differences between the EPL and the MLS that would make an older player be less important to them then to us.
On Sounders' PK attempts, does it seem like
they always aim for one of only two spots, left lower corner, right lower corner? If that’s the case, keepers always have a 50% chance of guessing right. Is there such a thing as a PK coaching specialist?
by Eastside Ajacied on Aug 14, 2011 8:53 AM PDT reply actions
It is probably the safest place to take penalty if taken with power
There is a bigger possibility of missing the goal completely when a player tries to hit the upper corners.
Even if Flaco didn't hit the post
His goal would have been blocked. I’m not a fan of giving the keeper 50/50 odds
He beat Kennedy on the PK
but drew woodwork. The rebound hit Kennedy and went out.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
I think his point
Was that Kennedy would’ve had it covered if it was on target.
Incidentally, there’s encroachment by a defender on the far side. Since the only criteria for retaking the penalty is goal/no goal (as opposed to missed/saved), it should’ve been retaken.
NOOOONAAN!
On younger, more agile notes, passing was fast and crisp yesterday. It looked like real, good soccer, at least in the middle third. But whenever the Sounders made it to the scoring third, they reverted back to early ’10, and lost their ability to finish.
Also, we had a lot of players back on defense today, more than usual. I think that’s got to be the reason for both the shutout and lack of goals scored, even more than NOOOONAAN! I often criticize other teams for having 8 men in the box (not including the keeper) but that was very much us yesterday. Not sure what we were so afraid of; Chivas is up-and-coming but not some scoring juggernaut, and counter doesn’t really suit us, especially the way we were passing yesterday.
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