Seattle Sounders Trade Up In Allocation Order To Nab Sammy Ochoa
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 26, 2011 2:21 PM PDT
in Sounders: Trades, Transfers and Rumors
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It might not be the big-name player everyone was hoping to get, but the Seattle Sounders have added at least one new player before the Sept. 15 MLS roster deadline. The Sounders traded a third-round pick in the 2012 draft to move into the Chicago Fire's No. 4 spot in the Allocation Order and picked Sammy Ochoa, who was here on trial earlier this year and played for Sigi Schmid on the U.S. U-20 team.
"He's a good back-to-goal player and a good finisher around the box," Schmid said in a team release. "Those are qualities that he's had. In all his time in Mexico he was in and out of the lineup because they had so many head coaches so it was tough to establish a rhythm."
Ochoa signed with Estudiantes Tecos of the Mexican Primera in 2006, but only made 26 appearances during five years there, scoring two goals. He scored in his one and only Reserve League appearance with the Sounders back on June 13 against the Los Angeles Galaxy.
Ochoa is a native of Mexico, but grew up in Southern California and attended Riverside Poly High School. He is 24, stands 6-feet tall and weighs about 165 pounds.
The move is likely of the low-risk, potentially high reward variety. The Sounders could not have found a player of Ochoa's pedigree in the third round of the MLS SuperDraft and if they did not use their allocation spot by Sept. 15, it would have reset at the end of the season anyway.
Adrian Hanauer's talked with reporters about the move.
After the jump, check out a video of Ochoa we found.
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As an addendum to this being a good risk to take I’d point back to whatever article it was, I think it was on SBNation, that pointed out that Sigi’s draft picks tend to underperform. Which leads me to believe trading draft picks is a worthwhile strategy given our excellent scouting of non-draft picks. That’s my feeling anyway.
Boo! Tomorrow AM. I want all things now!
I'd be willing to be if you went and looked at all draft picks for all MLS teams
and correlated their draft position and their performance, I bet Sigi wouldn’t be worse than league average. Picking guys in the MLS draft is harder IMO than in other sports where the gap between college and the pros is smaller (at least for top college teams).
The author did
and Sigi doesn’t compare well (as of April). Here’s the story.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Not sure I buy their analysis, frankly
They seem to base a lot of this on minutes played, which to me isn’t necessarily the be-all-end-all, especially after a season or two for several reasons. Anyway, to make a long point short(er), while I think we can safely say Estrada is a bust – at least based on his draft position – you also have to count a guy like Carrasco as a huge success compared to his draft position (and where he was on anyone’s radar before the draft). And let’s not forget a guy like Fucito in the 4th round.
Minutes played is relevant
when you are comparing guys who manage to play a few years vs guys who hardly see any minutes at all and are then out of the league. The Sounders have seemed to draft a higher than usual number of that latter category.
Yes and no
Is Fucito a draft bust from the 4th round? I doubt many would say that, but it’s not like he’s had a ton of minutes. Does that make him bad? What kind of skill has Mwanga shown – and Nowak plays him very oddly. Plus teams with lots of quality or multiple good players at a particular position can have a very solid rookie and barely play him while other teams who are worse and more desperate might play the guy every game. That doesn’t mean the player is better one way or the other and it can drastically change his minutes. Minutes do give some kind of indication of quality (I’d rather be in Carrasco’s position than Estrada’s), but they don’t definitively show who’s great and who’s not.
that's an interesting opinion...
How many college players come straight out of college and start more than half their games their rookie years? A couple a year maybe?
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 26, 2011 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I think a very small percentage of college players have a large impact in MLS within a year.
Sort of the statement wondering how the best team in college football would do against the worst team in the NFL.
I was looking through the previous drafts, and each draft there are a few standouts of folks, at least who stand out now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MLS_drafts. But looking back at 2010, it’s not like there are dozens of draftee’s who stand out now. There are a few.
In other words I think the there is definitely a gap large enough that “really good” college players aren’t good enough to play in the MLS. Only the VERY best college players actually really stand a chance of getting any playing time.
by SoundersForever on Aug 26, 2011 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Good move.
Really not a lot to give up for someone who could potentially be outplaying everyone else at the target forward position in a month.
by Greg Pirkl Lives on Aug 26, 2011 2:24 PM PDT reply actions
Id say for a THIRD ROUND pick...
This is a steal. It’s about as risky as any draft pick would be. And we didn’t give up any players either, which is important. The team just got one player deeper. No arguments or complaints.
But I absolutely didn’t see this coming at all.
It tough to base too much on the 1 reserve game he played
but since that’s the only time I’ve seen this guy play, I’m going to do it anyway. :) I remember him as a ‘loitering-with-intent’ kind of forward who was physical enough for MLS. His goal was a close range scrap-in-the-box kind of goal IIRC. Overall, it tough to be unhappy with this. Why Chivas passed on him I will never know (unless of course Eddie Johnson changes his mind or something).
I wonder if we'd do this if O'Brian White were healthy
I don’t really know anything about Ochoa, but he sounds similar to OBW.
Again, this is after having seen him once
and OBW not a whole lot of times, but I’d say Ochoa is not as fast or athletic as OBW. He hopefully also doesn’t have as many injury problems.
I concur
Definitely not as fast or explosive. He’s also a tad shorter. Definitely looked like a scrapper in the reserve game. Reminded me a bit of a younger Conor Casey. Best hope is for him to be a threat on crosses, hold up play and beat up a bit on opposing CBs so Montero has space to operate
Which is kind of what we're looking for
and Jaqua, Noonan and Levesque haven’t been able to consistently provide. Sigi want Nkufo to do that too, but Blaise couldn’t handle the MLS slam dance.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
He takes the last senior spot, right?
No roster gyrations necessary?
Hopefully he’s another reclamation success like Rosales.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
yes
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 26, 2011 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Does this impact the ability to acquire Hahnemann?
And what is the likelihood that happens?
by Chief in Seattle on Aug 26, 2011 2:40 PM PDT reply actions
Honestly, I don't think it effects it at all.
Its pretty clear now that he isn’t coming before Allocation gets reset for next season. Rosters lock in early september. If Hahnemann is oging to be on this team next year he will be signed in the offseason.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
How does the allocation order get set?
Is he playing anywhere right now?
by Chief in Seattle on Aug 26, 2011 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
It gets reset every season based on a teams performance
Bad teams go first. At least thats how it works as far as I know.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
From the MLS site:
(A) ALLOCATION RANKING
The allocation ranking is the mechanism used to determine which MLS club has first priority to acquire a U.S. National Team player who signs with MLS after playing abroad, or a former MLS player who returns to the League after having gone to a club abroad for a transfer fee. The allocation rankings may also be used in the event two or more clubs file a request for the same player on the same day. The allocations will be ranked in reverse order of finish for the 2010 season, taking playoff performance into account.
Once the club uses its allocation ranking to acquire a player, it drops to the bottom of the list. A ranking can be traded, provided that part of the compensation received in return is another club’s ranking. At all times, each club is assigned one ranking. The rankings reset at the end of each MLS League season.
Not sure I agree with you...
Let’s say that Hahnemann wants to come.
Let’s say he realizes how he would have to come to Seattle (allocation draft).
Let’s say he realizes Keller is playing out the year.
His best method of getting to the Sounders would be to wait until the last possible moment (September 13th or thereabouts), in order to have Seattle select at the highest point in the draft possible after other USMNT pool players have already come over.
That the Sounders traded for Ochoa instead of drafting him themselves and using their own pick somewhat furthers this theory.
It may not happen, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hahnemann announce his return to the states in several days.
sounders gave up allocation spot
Don’t think Hahnemann was going to sign with league before Sept. 15.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 26, 2011 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Mayers
addressed this on Twitter:
I asked GM Adrian Hanauer about that, he said Hahnemann’s value is so high the No. 1 team will likely take him and hold him ransom anyways.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Question is: do we pay up?
What price would be worth paying for Hahnemann?
Me personally?
I’m not fixated on Hahnemann, I think the Sounders can find an above-average MLS GK without having to sacrifice the players/allocation $$ to move up to acquire him.
You will hear us on Brougham, you will hear us on Occidental, you will hear us on King. Our yachts are all around you, there is no escape.
Checking our third round history on Wikipedia
2009 D Jared Karkas
2010 None (used in trade with Houston for Patrick Ianni)
2011 M Alex Caskey
Caskey and Karkas are never made the Sounders roster. The Ianni trade may be a comp. Both players were talented but stuck behind established players on their teams.
by James Bray on Aug 26, 2011 2:40 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Do we have any idea if he's near game shape?
How much and how recently has he trained with Estudiantes Tecos (or other teams)? Any indications? I’d hate to pick him up only to have him languish on the bench for fitness reasons for a month.
And be ready to go
Just in time for the playoffs? Not ideal, but still not terrible considering the empty roster spot that would have been the likely alternative.
"But who would listen to Little Old Me anyway?"
-by -Dave Clark
and -thehemogoblin
by Little old me on Aug 26, 2011 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
For this season he's likely a 30 min sub
Still, he can be used in CCL and Reserve games to help spread out the minutes at the two striker spots.
Fair enough
I’d just be nice if he could get on the field and produce sooner rather than later.
He trained with the major players. But the technico
didn’t like what he saw and now Lillingston (UAG) took his niche. I know because I go for UAG. (They need to rack up points to avoid regulation).
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"- Qui-Gon Jinn
By the way, MLS's player acquisition rules are ridiculous
There are 11 subsections, each describing a different method a team can use to acquire a player.
Yeap, it's minblowingly complex.
And who knows what kind of strange rules are hidden deep in there to preserve Garber’s ability to send players to big market teams when it benefits the league.
It reminds me of Calvinball
With the LA Galaxy in the role of Calvin 95% of the time.
Beckham does look a little like Calvin
And they call Ireland the “Celtic Tiger” so Keane=Hobbes?
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 26, 2011 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't we need to release someone
Since we already had 30 players on our roster. Does Montano (loan) or Zakuani (DL) not count against that number?
No need to release
Montano(loan) and Zakuani(DL) free up two roster spots
Montano loan doesn't free up a roster spot at all.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Okay thanks
I see that mechanisms K and L of the MLS Roster Rules outline injury replacements.
Maybe there's good reason no one has mentioned Hahnemann's age?
It would be nice to not have to worry about finding a quality keeper again in a few years. He close to 40 isn’t he. That being said, I suppose it’s no different to be constantly on the market for a keeper than it is for a striker.
Hmmmm...
According to Meyers:
Hanauer said they were interested in Ochoa even before striking out in the transfer window & were involved behind the scenes in his signing.
And he ended up here. Of course we had to trade a 3rd round pick, but I wonder if MLS ‘facilitated’ this a bit if both parties were interested in each other.
Sigi knows him from the 2005 U-20 World Cup team so if Sigi thinks he'll be a good fit, then that's good news
The Mexican-born striker played for the USA and manager Sigi Schmid at the 2005 Under-20 World Cup
Trust Sigi on this one...
I agree, that if Sigi’s had some experience with him on the U-20’s and he’s been able to see him on trial as well as track his progress in Mexico, then he must see something.
by Ruffneck Scarves on Aug 26, 2011 5:23 PM PDT via iPhone app up reply actions
In my pre-weekend sober, before Sat am
after seeing where the cards are, I am a little bothered with this. Ochoa adds nothing in the short term, the Sounders admit: “Now it’s just a matter of getting him fit and getting his game legs and he could help us.” Could help us? This takes up a roster spot and does not add immediate help. While I am all for “the future,” I am a little more for the “now.” This is not the type of addition we need right now for our battles. We are firing on all cylinders right now, and I really wish I could buy my Open Cup final tickets now, but this is more than a little troubling. There is no logical answer to the question “how has the FO sincerely tried to improve the team since Nkufo left, then Z and OBW injury?” Sanyang was not very impressive in his debut and they admit Ochoa may be someone for the “future.” Am I the only one who is bothered by this? The answer of “we almost got Cisse or Tagoe” doesn’t make much sense here. There was, and is, middle ground here with help at TF (and maybe at defense) and the FO simply has not gone there. They seem to be saying (and have kind of expressly said) we are good enough right now to win, or at least have a good chance, and that is enough. However, all I need to say is take either Rosales or Fernandez and injure them for the rest of the season, and we are hurting. Something is definitely wrong here.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 26, 2011 9:56 PM PDT reply actions
Let me put it this way...
Of all the players that have been signed by MLS this year, who do you feel like the Sounders really missed out on?
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 26, 2011 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is not meant to be a wholesale complaint, but just an observation
It’s not that I think we missed out on those coming into MLS, its that we did not make a tweak to the lineup. I have made my peace that we did not get a big time signing for whatever reason, but it just seems like we could use a little more offensive insurance going into the final stretch. We could have gotten someone earlier who could help now, not too expensive, maybe Braun or Oduro intra MLS, or maybe Zura on loan like SJ, or similar player. Just seeing what happened to Drogba today reinforces this notion the we are still a little thin upfront. Hopefully we kick the crap out of COL today and keep rolling. And yes, while I am still on the post MONTY high, Jaqnoonvesque doesn’t give me comfort on this going into crunch time. If you ask yourself, what is our plan right now if our best player goes out for the year on 9/16, how will we deal with that? Take out Montero, Flaco or Mauro, and I don’t like how the pieces rearrange. It’s definitely a weakness that I would wish we shore up before the roster freeze. The conversation about what we do offseason is completely separate right now.
by Brougham Hooligan on Aug 27, 2011 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Well of course...
But we have limited resources. All teams do. that we’ve already overcome injuries to two of our top offensive starters is pretty amazing. It kinda goes without saying that more injuries would be potentially problematic. The problem is, none of the solutions you offer seem to be any better than what actually happened. It’s just not a very easy task to find someone is capable of replacing one of your top players that a.) is out of contract b.) isn’t looking for a longterm deal.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Aug 27, 2011 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
You are aware that the Sounders have lost one game in MLS competition since May, correct?
And that they just beat Monterrey, in Mexico? And that Nate Jaqua and Pat Noonan are almost certainly gone at the end of the season and will need to be replaced by someone, ideally someone exactly like Sammy Ochoa?
There is literally nothing not to like about this move.
by Aaron Campeau on Aug 26, 2011 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Jaqua
doesn’t need to be at the end of contract for seattle to get rid of him ie selling him, putting him in the re-entry draft
Awesome
that we got Ochoa. Looking forward to see how he pairs up with Montero.
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