Thursday Tactics 'n' Things: Do Forwards Need to Score?
[author' note: this was written on Monday, and with the busy schedule around here I didn't have a chance to run it until now. The context of this has changed a bit after last night, but not too much to require massive editing. I post it as originally written]
Saturday evening, as the sun sank lower towards the horizon and the elation of a comprehensive 6-2 win begun to turn to contemplation, a strange thought crossed my mind.
"I wonder how Fredy Montero feels right know?"
it wasn't as though Montero was a passenger in Saturday's match. He was active enough, and figured onto the scoresheet even though he recorded none of the 6 goals. But this is, after all, the player who is paid very well (by MLS standards) to be the feature man in the Sounder attack - at least in a nominal sense - and one just has to wonder about these things occasionally - at least I do. It is not as though I am figuring Montero ought to be upset, in fact, I would be upset if he were. It has more to do with a sense of self-evaluation, a trait that all good athletes really ought to have. Not that it matters to the media or the fans - these thoughts are rarely shared in a frank manner, and when they are we tend to judge them harshly against the context of wins and losses. This is the self-critical voice wherein an individual asks himself "am I really carrying my weight around here?"
Watching highlights I noted a couple of clear moments where he decided to shoot rather than make what should have been an easy and more threatening pass, almost as if he felt at least a modicum of pressure to join in on the goal-scoring himself; but it is also entirely possible to be reading too much into all this.
The 6 goals the Sounders scored Saturday have put them at the top of MLS in goals scored this season, with 42. This is actually a little odd considering that about 2 weeks ago the Sounders were virtually thrust into crisis, in the minds of some, by not being able to sign a high-priced forward during the transfer window. Never mind that it very well be fullback that proves to be this team's Achilles heel this year (if they have one), what we needed was a clinical finisher, a forward who would actually score goals and finish these myriad chances seemingly going to waste, and in the lack of such a person our season was ultimately doomed and success merely an illusion.
As it turns out, lack of goal-scoring is hardly a concern for this team (although expect that perception to change the next time the team goes scoreless in a match). This seems bafflingly counterintuitive, given the apparent need for an expensive mid-season forward reinforcement, and it all begs the question, do you really need forwards to score goals?
Ask followers of the USMNT and many of them will wring their hands about the lack of USA soccer's ability to cultivate elite forwards. The general perception is that we won't truly excel at the international level until we can begin to create Wayne Rooney level forwards. This has all led to a what I like to refer to as the messianic forward complex - something the English have perfected. Never mind that Clint Dempsey continues to thrive as probably one of the best players in the Premiership, and that Stuart Holden - before being waylaid by the thugishness of Nigel de Jong in a friendly - was one of the higher-rated midfielders in England through the first part of the 2010-11 season. If one goes back and actually watches the 2010 World Cup effort, one will see that Jozy Altidore - when freed from the dead weight of Robbie Findley as his strike partner - actually did a great job of wining and holding the ball and fitting into the framework of s system that called upon Landon Donovan and Dempsey to really be the attacking force. The fact Altidore didn't score is what many will focus on (although he did finish with as many goals in South Africa as Rooney, it must be said). Looking a little further into the last World Cup, the Golden Boot winner played as a right wing in Germany's 4-2-3-1, the Netherlands finished runner-up with Robin van Persie scoring 1 goal in the tournament, and Golden Ball winner Diego Forlan was used primarily as an enganche.
One need only look down the West Coast to L.A., who were cruising to the Supporter's Shield having gotten very little throughout the season so far from their forwards (although the signing of Robbie Keane has apparently made them unbeatable, according to some). Meanwhile, NYRB, with the best forward in the League and Golden Boot favorite Thierry Henry, are an absolute mess. The top four in the MLS goal standings right now include Eric Hassli - who plays for the League's worst team - and Brek Shea and Landon Donovan, who are both listed as outside mids/wingers.
But getting back to Montero and the Sounders. His all-competitions numbers of 7 goals and 8 assists are far from horrible; [edit: yes, after Tuesday he now has 8 goals in all competitions] although his League numbers of just 6 goals in 23 matches played do seem a bit thin (although his 6 helpers alleviate that). It is quite fair to say he has not been as productive as it is reasonable to expect he should be. But it is also hard to say that it even matters, and it is hard to say that forwards scoring in the first place matters.
If we have seen one thing over the last season and a half it is the importance of outside midfielders/wingers to modern attacking football, and how that applies to our home team. I have talked about this in the past many times (too numerous to link here, quite frankly) but in the type of systems the Sounders have run under Sigi Schmid for most of their matches the outside mids are not only free to be attack-minded players, they are EXPECTED to be attack minded players. This, in turn, puts pressure on defensive mids and fullbacks, where the true weak link in the team may really be (in terms of depth if not quality of starters).
It simply does not matter who scores the goals, so long as they are being scored. The incredible 10-1-2 stretch the team enjoyed in the second half of '10 was really defined by Steve Zakuani and Sanna Nyassi, far more than Montero and Blaise Nkufo.
So if forwards don't need to score, what do they need to do? This is the real issue, as it speaks to the one of the core values of Sigi's "big man/small man" forward pairing template he has had a hard time doing away with. Roger Levesque worked as the top man simply because we was willing to expend effort pressuring defenders, even though his abilities in possession we quite limited. Montero is still proving able to draw the attention of defenders and sort of soak up defensive pressure to create space for his teammates. In other words, the outcomes for the forwards may not be quantifiable in the convenient way we all want them to be, in a simple tabulation under a column labeled "G" on the stat sheets. We may have to think about this a little bit, and we may have to appreciate the holistic nature of the game itself and this team in particular. But at the same time, so do our opponents, and that is a lot harder then drawing a figurative "X" on a player and saying "stop him!"
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Good stuff...
Now, let’s move Lamar Neagle to Forward!
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
I'm not in any hurry to move Fucito out of that spot...
…based on one performance, even a hat trick (although, if Fucito were to not appear due to injury or rotation, I’ve been calling for Neagle to be tried up top for a while now).
It’s worth pointing out in this (very good) article that the consternation many felt over acquiring a forward was heavily dependent on the perception that Sigi was unwilling to make one of the personnel decisions that led to the Columbus result. Many were stating we needed a forward if Noonan or Levesque were getting the majority of starting minutes there. I’d actually state exactly the same thing now.
So if forwards don’t need to score, what do they need to do? This is the real issue, as it speaks to the one of the core values of Sigi’s “big man/small man” forward pairing template he has had a hard time doing away with. Roger Levesque worked as the top man simply because we was willing to expend effort pressuring defenders, even though his abilities in possession we quite limited.
I’d readily argue that Levesque as a top man didn’t and doesn’t work – at least not “well.” If the team is scoring off the midfield, there needs to be effective space created by the forwards and backwards distribution to Rosales and Fernandez (Neagle’s strong ability to find Rosales effectively across the field in space is a pleasant surprise, incidentally).
my sarcasm was clearly missed
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
You Evans'd your sarcasm.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Sep 1, 2011 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Enganche
Making links
When making a “link” highlight the text in your reply, click the link button and check open in new box.
I try to preview my post also to save myself any embarrassment.
For lots of cool tips, suggestions and way better explanations on how to do stuff go here.
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Drawing defenders
Looking back at the replay of the 6-2 thumping you can see Montero is actually drawing 2 defenders most of the time, creating space for those on the wing once they get by the fullback and opening up space for other people to run through the box. So he is “doing his job” in that sense.
But not having a clinical finisher becomes a problem with teams that bunker down against us, the Chivas game is the most recent example. Someone who can really finish in the final 3rd is needed against a really defensive minded team. My fear is that is what we will see in the play-offs.
I think Alvaro is one of our better clinical finishers if he can get into a dangerous spot.
He’s muffed a couple of headers, but his last couple goals from his feet have been excellent. The Monterrey one taking on two defenders, and the similar one from a few weeks back where he stayed on his feet against a defender and scored.
Yes, contrary to what I’m saying, Alvaro missed the PK against Chivas. But I think he’s very good shooting with his feet normally. And his headers were good earlier in the year.
@ritual605
by Greg Pirkl Lives on Sep 1, 2011 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Another great example of Montero doing his job is the Dallas game
On Rosales’ goal you can see that the back left Rosales for Montero thinking Montero was the more threatening.
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Sep 1, 2011 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Neagle to Forward?
Hey Jeremiah, I hope you are not being sarcastic. I absolutely agree with that statement. With Alvaro playing well at LW we can move Neagle in there with Fucito and try Montero in the middle with Alonso.
by Pauly "Pablo" Morris on Sep 1, 2011 9:24 AM PDT reply actions
With 14 games in 7 weeks
I have a feeling HEAVY rotation is going to happen. Although there is a chance that the CCL Group is locked up by the time at Comunicaciones happens, and then we’d see a weaker sqaud – Tetteh, Sanyang, Ochoa, Estrada, Montano, etc
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
That season i think is done by then
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
from Josh's blog
Sigi said
(Can he come back after Montreal’s season ends or is he gone for the year?) “I think it’s like a rest-of-the-year type of thing. I think they’ve got seven or eight games left and hopefully he’ll get some good playing time in there. For him, the earliest he’d be back with us would be the following season I believe because it’s an international transfer.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soundersfcblog/2015911309_miguel_montano_to_go_on_loan_t.html
It may not be an international transfer though
The LEAGUE is run though the USSF, not the CSA. I believe player registration is through the league.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
In any event, Sigi doesn't seem eager to get him back
He doesn’t have any plans that hinge on having Montano
Of course not
at Comunicaciones could be a meaningless game.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
It would be so nice to get 6 pts out of the next 2 games vs Herediano
Even 4 would be nice, and you have to think that’s pretty manageable. With either of those results, the rest of the group stage is all about placement (and we can let even more players rest instead of taking a long international trip).
Neagle might be great as a forward, but
at least as far as he’s shown, most of his goals have come from him being able to run at defenders in space (2 of the 3 vs Columbus and his goal @ RSL). I think that’s when he’s at his best and now, when he’s just starting to really feel it out on the wing, is not the time IMO to make him change positions.
Agree
Leave him where he is. He and Alvaro are a great combination on the left. Both are dangerous scorers, but their games are different enough that they cause real tactical problems when Sigi substitutes them in the 2nd half – particularly when bringing in Neagle’s speed late in the game against tired legs.
by Roger Sounder on Sep 1, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I was...
I just don’t see a reason to move a guy away from a position in which he’s excelling.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
sure, maybe next season...
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Rephrasing the question
For me the question isn’t, do forwards need to score? It seems that the real question here is do forwards need to carry a team with their scoring?
A forward needs to be a credible threat to score. There are many ways that this can be accomplished including creativity, post play, clinical finishing, opportunistic positioning to simple determination. But the key for a team is that the forwards need to be able to score and pose a threat to score. This creates the space you are describing and allows for tactical systems where a team can rely on multiple players to utilize that space and create scoring.
This is a different issue from the needs of team to have a clinical finisher as a part of their arsenal of tricks. Having a clinical finisher that can punish a bunkering defense is one tactical solution. Another solution is to work the ball in tight spaces with a variety of players all capable of scoring. The current version of the Sounders is using the second tactical system. Yes, a purely clinical finisher would help, but it could also be argued that both Neagle and Fucito are bringing enough clinical finishing to the pitch and that this in turn is opening more room for the skills of Flaco, Montero and Rosales. Right now teams are keying on Montero and he is dishing off to others. As teams are forced to spread their defensive focus, Montero will get more space and opportunities.
by Abbott Smith on Sep 1, 2011 9:29 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
I would add that Flaco is pretty clinical himself
a missed penalty and a couple of poorly taken headers aside; it seemed like early in the year he was the only guy on the team that could just calmly slot it home
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Sep 1, 2011 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Clinical and sneaky
I agree that Flaco is clinical.
For me the key is how he creates space versus how he can use space. Flaco uses guile to free up space for himself. The issue early in the season was that he can be closed down in isolation and this limited his opportunities for clinical finishing. Fucito, Neagle and Rosales added to the mix along with Montero and Flaco is creating more tactical space through team play rather than relying strictly on individual players to create their own room. Flaco has definitely benefitted. Fucito in particular is benefitting both Flaco and Neagle. Mike may not be tall, but he has a great center of gravity, strength on the ball and a bulldog’s tenacity. He is providing a physical grinding presence that is tying up the opposition CDs and freeing Flaco, Neagle and Rosales to isolate the defensive wings. And the fact that Fucito is a clinical finisher makes him even more effective in the role.
by Abbott Smith on Sep 1, 2011 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
How many more threats do we need to create space?
Consider Fernandez, Neagle, and Rosales are always threats to score as well, and given their attacking ethos they’re frequently as deep in the attacking third as Montero. Few MLS teams have so many attacking players constantly forward that are true threats; given that you’d think it would be easier (if anything) for a striker to succeed here. And that’s also not considering how much better the service is from the Sounders midfield versus many other teams.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Time
I agree with your observations. The Sounders are very deep relative to the MLS in terms of scoring threats. But for many teams, Montero is still viewed as the primary threat. The changes in the Sounders attack have really evolved in the past 6 games. During those games the Sounders have only played 3 MLS franchises. FCD twice, Chivas and Columbus. Quite frankly, I don’t think that the opposition has begun to adjust to the new realities of defending the Sounders. The only team that has played the Sounders twice in that spell was FCD. And look who scored on Tuesday night: Montero. Teams are going to have to adjust their defensive schemes and will not be able to key so much on Montero from here forward. This will pay dividends for Fredy. There simply needs to be time for the impact of this spread of offensive pressure to have an impact.
by Abbott Smith on Sep 1, 2011 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I share these views on Montero
He’s definitely not lazy and we all love the guy, but it seems like we should be getting more from him – especially if we’re looking at past precedent. He had 12 goals in 2009 with Jaqua as his partner, so you know he can do it without a world-class striker up top. The frustrations surround his streakiness, and this year the draught has seemed longer than any before.
I have a suspicion that the league has “figured” Montero out, so his striking effectiveness is diminished. In my opinion his double-digit goal-scoring abilities would only return if he had a true threat to compliment him up top as he can only really thrive when he has plenty of space. Unfortunately you don’t always get that in the MLS…
If we look at league play -
Montero’s goals per 90:
2009 – .43
2010 – .34
2011 – .29
You can see the diminishing returns there. Those stats make less sense when you look at Montero’s shooting accuracy, however – he’s increased his frequency of shots each year and still improved:
Shots on goal as a % of shots:
2009 – 41% (58 shots)
2010 – 46% (84 shots)
2011 – 59% (on pace for ~100 shots)
Montero has been increasing his strike rate and accuracy, yet his goals have decreased. Has the MLS figured him out?
All that said, I’m happy with our success right now so I’m with you in the “why complain?” bandwagon. Of course the second we have another 0-0 game you know we’ll all be asking the questions again.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
If you recall the analysis earlier this year
The correlation between accuracy and scoring goals is quite week. So disregard the increasing % of his shots-per-SOG.
What IS interesting in that data, though, is the number of goals-per-shot Montero has scored in each season. In the first season, he scored 12 goals on only 58 shots. That, according to the earlier analysis, is just unsustainable when the mean seems to be one-goal-per-10-shots. Even last season it appears he may have gotten a tad bit lucky.
This year, though, he actually seems right in line with the mean – I don’t think the league has figured him out so much as he’s just regressed to the mean.
I may be incorrectly applying the analysis from earlier this season, though, as that (I think) dealt more with TEAM data than individual data. I just thought it was worth bringing up.
Montero has a very low conversion rate
According to mlssoccer.com he has a 7.9% conversion rate. That’s 7-10% lower then almost everyone above him.
Hang on a sec
Where are these stats from again? Looking at league play (i.e. regular season only), MLS stats show:
2009 – 86 shots, 32 sog (37.2%)
2010 – 91 shots, 34 sog (37.9%)
2011 – 76 shots, 29 sog (38.2%)
I’m not saying the pattern suggested doesn’t exist – his accuracy is increasing and his conversion rate is decreasing – but either I’m not following something or the suggestion that there’s an 18% difference in accuracy doesn’t bear up.
Since I’m at it, I show goals per 90 as:
2009 – 2217 mins, 12 goals – .49
2010 – 2353, 10 goals, .38
2011 – 1798 mins, 6 goals, .30
I used ESPN. You are right the numbers are way off.... weird
Link: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/70745/fredy-montero?cc=5901
It would make more sense to use MLS site, but I was on the ESPN site already at the time and had no reason to believe the numbers would be wrong. Lesson learned.
Thanks for the correction. Yes the numbers are a bit different but the ratios are largely unchanged, so the discussion point still remains.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
If you're looking strictly at goals, you're fundamentally misunderstanding what Montero is.
by Brian Floyd on Sep 1, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Who said it's strictly about goals?
Why do we have to discount any analysis of goal scoring when looking at Montero? This response is getting a bit tired. He’s a forward; it’s perfectly reasonable to look at goal scoring.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
It's one thing to include them in your analysis.
It’s another to look at those numbers and ask whether MLS has figured him out. The most logical explanation – by far – for Montero’s decreased conversion rate is luck, and I’d be willing to make the argument that he’s been better the past ~3 months or so than he ever has.
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 1, 2011 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Appreciate your perspective
You don’t think three years of a decreasing pattern is more than luck though? What metric would one use to judge that he’s played “the best soccer here in the last 3 months than he ever has” (serious question). I know the team has been on an unprecedented streak of late, but there are too many variables (Rosales, Neagle, Fernandez, etc) to singular attribute that to Montero. I was wondering if you have a particular method so that I might better understand going forward.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't put a great deal of stock in individual player metrics in soccer.
I think they can be somewhat illustrative and interesting, but I don’t think they tell you nearly enough to draw conclusions from. So, with that said, I have to trust my eyes. And mine tell me Fredy has been an absolute holy terror these past three months.
And no, I don’t think that pattern is indicative of anything more than luck. We’re dealing with very small sample sizes here. There’s a massive amount of noise. But even if Montero is a less effective goal scorer now (which I just have an incredibly difficult time believing) I think his play as a creator is significantly improved this season and more than makes up for a drop-off in goals scored.
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 1, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
What are all different the Player Metrics out there?
I was try to implement TrueSkill ratings with MLS players awhile back, but then I got lazy. I’m still curious what other ways to measure a player’s performance. Here’s a list of all I can think of:
- Castrol Performance Index
- MLS’s Team of the Week, Player of the Week, Player of the Month, Honorable Mentions
- Points earned when player started vs not-started
what i tend to use...
Is individual player /- and PP90. Neither are perfect, but both give good pictures of how a player is doing that is a little better than simply looking at goals or whatever. +/- takes a bit of time and I am left hand tabulating, which forces me to usually compare one player to a the team in general. PP90 is 2xgoalsassists/minutes*90.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Soapbox post - not directed at anyone in particular
I was just regurgitating statistics and asking a question with my post. I did not insinuate Montero isn’t a good player nor did I say his only value is to score goals. It gets frustrating getting lumped into that group every time a post is made about Montero. The article posted by malcontentjake is an article about Montero and scoring. Montero is also a Forward, so it’s not ridiculous to discuss his goal output. I don’t recall saying it was the only metric worth measuring.
I am curious as to why Montero receives a “pass” from the editors here of almost anything that could be construed as criticism. I’d hope that you guys are familiar enough with the “usual” posters here that you know there won’t be pointless bashing; we might be off the mark at times, but there is always a reason to our thought process. The Montero-defending could probably be toned down if the post isn’t obvious trolling.
Last point: no one – not even Sigi – should be completely exempt from criticism if the post has supporting arguments or merit. No one is perfect. I was merely asking thoughts on a hypothesis for the reduced output; it was not a persuasive piece.
/soapbox
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by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Montero's lack of goal scoring production in League play this year is a problem
I’ve believed that all year long.
But like I’m saying, how big a problem is another question. So far, it is a minor problem. Will this change? I don’t know…
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Sep 1, 2011 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Sigi seems to agree with you
Given how he’s verbally called out Montero on at least one occasion that I can remember. He also benched him for a bit though I’m not sure if that was injury related or Montero being in Sigi’s doghouse.
Valid points
As a near ceaseless Montero defender, I am guilty of this with no question. I’ll only speak for myself, but it’s hard not to want to defend him when a.) I really think he’s the Sounders best player b.) there are sooooo many people out there who really can’t see what he’s doing if he’s not literally scoring goals. I know most of those people aren’t here, but it’s a hard habit to break.
That said, Montero is not freed from criticism. I just happen to think that the criticism is less relevant when it’s only about his goal-scoring output. Maybe we should be getting ‘more" from him, but I happen to think we’re already getting an awful lot. Somewhere there’s a balance, and we could probably do a better job of finding it.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
It’s hard to complain about a guy who in any season is likely to have double-digit goals AND assists.
Teams will look forever to find a guy who can both score AND create from that withdrawn forward position. Montero is genuinely something special.
Good article
I agree that the simple presence of Montero demands the attention of more than a defender or two at a time, which opens up space for our midfielders. Why else would our midfielders be responsible for the majority of our goals? If people are able to keep this fact in mind, and add to it the 13 goals in MLS play that he has officially been credited with having a hand in (6G, 7A), they may recognize just how vital he has been to our attack this year. He’s kinda like Shaq was in his prime when he demanded the double-team every time he was in/around the paint, leaving dangerous guys like Wade and Kobe open on the wings.
I’m doing these numbers from my brain because it takes too long to check it all on my phone, but I’m pretty sure that 26 of our MLS goals have been scored by midfielders (Fernandez=6, Neagle=5, Rosales=5, Evans=4, Zakuani=2, Alonso=3, Friberg=1), 3 by defenders (Parke, Ianni and Wahl =1 each), and 12 by forwards (Montero=6, Levesque=3, White=2, Fucito=1), and 1 own goal. That’s incredible! I can’t imagine too many teams have been as successful as this Sounders team has when their forwards have been responsible for less than 30% of the scoring.
by MicahRowe18 on Sep 1, 2011 10:08 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
The playoffs...
I do wonder, once you’re into the playoffs, does lack of forward scoring become a liability. You want as many weapons as possible to throw off the other team.
I think Fredy looked frustrated on Saturday and the first parts of Tuesday. But maybe that’s fine… players going through “slumps” tend to break out of them. ANd if he breaks out of his late in the season… so be it.
In the Playoffs the Sounders will have the following options for goal production
Montero and Alvaro both with 8 in all competitions
Neagle with 6
Fucito, Rosales and Evans with 5.
Five options seems like more than most of MLS
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Also, those are mostly threats from run-of-play
There’s always the odd goal from a defender on a set piece. Hurtado is about due for another goal off a corner kick.
While we CAN win without it
Obviously, having a target-forward who can win balls in the air and finish effectively would improve our set-piece play. It strikes me that being able to do that may be a way to beat the bunker-and-counter type play of LAG (since, in a game where the other team bunkers, we will tend to get a lot of corner kicks, throw-ins, or free-kicks from dangerous positions).
I see no "slump" in Fredy's play.
I played on a team once, that only lost two games in five years. Our most important attacking player was about fifth in goal scoring.
by Jo-Jo on Sep 1, 2011 4:19 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Two thoughts
One I am not a huge on Montero’s play, he has limitations in his game, but remember I think I heard Arlo say he has 8 assists also. Those are some nice numbers for anyone on any team. I do think that MLS has “figured him out”, but part of that is teams will double team him or he will hit a shot like Tuesday night’s shot. Sigi keeps throwing Noonan out there with him, that is going to happen.
Two, Zakuani is out. When he comes back Sigi better not do anything dumb like NOT play Flacko again. Put one of them up top and see how they do. Is there anyone that DOESN’T think they will be awesome ?
I thik Zakuani would be far less awesome as a striker than a winger
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 1, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
He played forward at Akron
I’m not sure that equates to “developed” as a forward.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I had thought he'd played up front up until he came here
But it looks like he was a winger before as well, so fair ’nuff.
He was a left winger at Arsenal
while Ljungberg was there. I think he was 5th on their depth chart prior to his accident.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Flaco has clearly earned playing time
but let’s keep them both safe from the beatings that forwards take.
Give me some Flaco in the middle, Zak at his natural left position and watch the fireworks!
by butterGlory on Sep 1, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I remember
Zakuani talking in an interview once about how his Akron coach used to get mad at him because he would end up out on the wing when he was supposed to be playing up top. It’s his natural position and where he feels most comfortable.
Having seen the way this team has played without a target forward the past month I don't want them to sign one.
If they upgrade at striker in the off-season I’d prefer to see a smaller, faster, more technically gifted striker.
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 1, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I think this past month has shown that they don't have to look at a DP attacking player
But can just look at any position and get the best possible player.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
My contention is still that you make the most of the resource using it on attacking players.
I also think this team is still in need of upgrade at striker, but I don’t think we agree on that point.
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 1, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think this past month shows we have the tools to work around not having a top finisher
…but it doesn’t get rid of the problem, it just shows we can adjust.
I’m with Aaron on this one – completely pleased with our performance and scoring of late, but that doesn’t change our team’s deficiencies.
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
the collective wisdom...
so it seems to have been just commonly accepted as fact that the Sounders “NEED” a target forward/clinical finishers/messianic forward figure and I am just left to wonder why that is. Seriously. Am I the only one pondering this. The “collective wisdom” is just so wrong so much of the time.
How exactly will having a target man open up more space for the mids? Is that necessarily true. We assume replacing someone like Fucito or Levesque (who runs his ass off at the least) will automatically be better than someone more stationary?
And the “top/clinical finisher?” I am just wondering why that has come to be seen as such a necessity. We spend an enormous amount of money to add a goal scorer to a team already leading the League in goals?!
I’m just not sure how/why this has become so commonly accepted and so rarely challenged. It seems to me that, if nothing else, this team has evolved out of what, quite frankly, is a more remedial tactical approach. I mentioned this in the off season, but the “target man” “fox in the box” type is becoming extinct in favor of more dynamic players, and the main reason they have lasted in MLS is because it is a lower level of soccer.
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Sep 1, 2011 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Because there were 8 games that the Sounders failed to score at all in
4 of which ended in a loss. Because despite being the most scoring team in the MLS we are not leading the MLS. There are two ways to fix that let fewer goals in or score more. Having a clinical finisher is quicker/easier method. We also have the most touches in the opponent’s box of any team in the MLS,
We are very rarely blown out of the water in a game. In fact, the only game we lost by more then 1 goal was against the Dynamo. Imagine how much better this team would be with a cynical finisher. Just 5 more goals then we currently have and we would have 4 more points at the very least and as many as 12 more points.
I actually just wrote a post about this at SBN Seattle, but this team is a very different animal since mid-June.
We’re not leading MLS because of a slow start in which we struggled to find an identity. We’ve found it now, and it involves scoring an obscene number of goals.
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 1, 2011 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I was also wondering
if Montero was too goal hungry last Saturday. He missed some good assist situations in order to try to score himself. I’m glad he scored when it counts on Tuesday.
Thanks for the insight about the value of “creating space”.
Yeah I saw Montero get greedy vs CLB
But that was after we were up by a few goals, which was 20 minutes into the game, so I can’t fault him for that.
2012 Starting Line Up?
When Zakuani is 100% next season, how is Sigi going to form the starting line up with the way Alvaro and Neagle have been playing? This is going to be a tough off season. I don’t want to be thinking that far ahead. I’ve been saturating myself in this lime green, cascade shale, puget sound blue, electric yellow kool aid for some time now and I’m enjoying it immensely. I DO NOT want this to stop any time soon! But, it will stop…for a time. When it stops, eventually the conversation will come up. Soooooooooo, let it begin. We all know Rosales has solidified the right wing spot. Zakuani has the left wing spot or has he lost it? What of Montero? Will he be a Sounder next season? Alonso needs help in the middle? Who will his partner in crime be? Defensively, we could use more Zach Scott, or do we go find a more prominent player?
by Pauly "Pablo" Morris on Sep 1, 2011 11:34 AM PDT reply actions
not to cut you off...
But I just have no interest in this conversation at this very moment. I’ll worry about next year the day after the MLS cup.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
LMAO!
Jeremiah, I had a feeling you would be the first to post a reply. Exactly the words I knew you would say. Good stuff! It’s all good my friend!
by Pauly "Pablo" Morris on Sep 1, 2011 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
sorry for being so predictable :)
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 1, 2011 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Can not rec: enough
This and the Expansion Draft conversation totally mis the point of sports – the actually game.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
More important...
Did you hear who Montero is dating now?
:)
Is it better then who Carrasco is dating?
by Derek R on Sep 1, 2011 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
doubt it
Alex Morgan is hot. :)
by SoundersForever on Sep 1, 2011 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
...but since the Sounders don't play again for an eternity....
My belly button lint is getting boring. : )
Please Sir Dave, can’t we talk about the Expansion Draft now? : )
Fernandez as CAM. I'm not sure how suited he is for it, but have him streak up either side in attack... at least sounds... deadly.
If Neagle or Fucito continue to prove themselves, they can play next to Montero, and I am just going to assume Alonso, Hurtado, and Parke are back next year. Same with Riley. The question then is satisfaction with left back. I am, though I’m not against bringing someone in. Tetteh doing well?
Oshan is right though… this season is too fun to start thinking about next year.
I think Flaco in the middle would be fantastic
But Rosales could also play there effectively, with Flaco on the right. Truly, Flaco and Rosales could move in and out of the central position to get their best match-up, and either of them can move further forward into a threatening position / run-into-the-box if Montero drops back for a play or two.
If we keep these players over the winter, with Zak coming back, the mod-ability and creativity of our attack will be absolutely maddening to opposing defenses. We’re already seeing what this sort of attack can do.
Is there even such thing as a 2011 Starting Line Up?
I’m pretty sure there wasn’t one at the beginning of the season with the sudden resignations, and injuries. Did the starting line up settle after the 2nd half of the season?
Which proves we are screwed
Since our only starter is leaving us next year!
Keller, Ozzie, Riley and 8 others
And we give Riley a break only when we throw Zack Scott a bone and let him dog Shea for 90 minutes.
Fan of: Cardinals, Blues, Sounders, Yellow Jackets, Wolverines, Rams, and Blazers.
I'd keep Zakuani on the left wing and slide Flaco to CM. Neagle as sub for left wing
As for defense I think we could upgrade our fullback position
SSFC | What I do for fun: Sometimes-Interesting
by ABTsportsline on Sep 1, 2011 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm curious as to how difficult the shots Montero is taking compared to the rest of the team
I’m fine with all of his stats but his conversion %. Everyone on the team who has scored at least 1 goal this season (11 players) has a higher % then he does with the exception of Fucito and Alonso.
I have no doubt that Montero is a key player but that is a stat that I find unsettling.
It doesn't "beg the question"
…it raises the question. /idiompolice
by mrbs on Sep 1, 2011 2:11 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
thank you!
One of the most incorrectly used phrases in our English language. I had a professor in college that used to rant and rave about the usage of “Begs the question” and “raises the question”.
Except that language evolves
So if something gets misused enough it becomes part of the language
remember “Ain’t ain’t a word?” Well, it is now.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I usually agree with you but I really don't want to let this one go :(
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 2, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Need to draw the line somewhere
Should we also start accepting “intensive purposes”?
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 2, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Emotion and Turning a Phrase
Yes, in this context ‘begs’ is grammatically incorrect. However, grammar is a tool in service of communication, not the other way around. The structure of grammar provides clarity and the hope that your intent is not garbled. Communication includes both structure and emotional content. This phrase survives for all of its grammatical flaws because ‘begs’ is emotionally richer than ‘raises’ without sacrificing structural intent.
English is the Borg of languages. Resistance is futile precisely because the strength of English is its flexibility. It adapts and morphs quickly. If an idea is not expressed within the existing structure of English, phrases from another language are adopted like ‘coup de’tat’ or words are created like ‘pixel’. The cost of this flexibility is consistency and grammatical structure. We are left with a grammatical structure that pales in comparison to the Latin languages and alarming inconsistencies. For example, the letter combination ‘ough’ has 13 different pronunciations in English. The flexibility and adaptability of English drives the French nuts. New English phrases and idioms creep into the French language so quickly that the French government had to create a government organization simply to create new French phrases to replace them.
American English is even more grammatically perverse because our ancestors were not the elite of English society but the people looking to pursue new opportunities. They were not tied as tightly to the culture that bred the structure of English grammar. We have a language that is not as precise in some ways, but more adaptable in others. It is effective at communicating though in a different way than its parent.
by Abbott Smith on Sep 3, 2011 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs





















