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Thursday Tactics and Things: Forwards, QB's, and single points of failure

It is a pretty common theme, at least in the American soccer press, that a team is only as good as the talismanic superstar forward it may or may not have.  With regards to the national team, we have heard quite a bit about how the key to the USMNT becoming a global power is that they need a "Lionel Messi" (a notion that is utterly preposterous, quite frankly).  More locally, there was much gnashing of teeth and rending of garments (and still is, to some extent) that the July-August MLS international transfer window didn't land the Sounders an expensive, theoretically superstar "clinical finisher" to score those truckloads of goals the team was apparently not scoring.  This is what i like to call the "messianic striker complex."

As I think about it, the root of this affliction may lie in what can only be called the National sporting obsession, which is major-college and professional tackle-football.  Often considered the "ultimate team sport", it does indeed require a level of regimentation and study and practice that probably borders on the psychologically unhealthy, but more than that, the contemporary game also contains what i find to be an odd and troubling self-contradiction: the Collective Wisdom dictates that a team simply cannot be successful without a good quarterback, and a team cannot be *great* without a *great* quarterback*.  This could be called a single point of failure for all high-level tackle-football teams, and seems to not only be rooted in the core thinking of the game, but also seemingly open up an obvious and easily exploitable weakness in even the greatest of tackle-football teams.

[* although I will be the first to point out the Collective Wisdom is often horribly mistaken]

Star-divide

If you are any kind of sports fan you are probably aware that the Indianapolis Colts went from Super Bowl contender to Andrew Luck sweepstakes with the loss of Peyton manning to a disturbing neck injury.  You may remember a few years ago when the New England Patriots, a year removed from the first 16-0 season in history (although they ultimately finished 18-1) lost QB Tom Brady 7 game minutes into the season, and then subsequently missed the playoffs [although it MUST be said that the team still went 11-5, a testament to the coaching staff and overall quality of schemes and players, and really ought to have made the playoffs, but for what can only be called bad luck and the flaws of a system that has directly inspired the MLS playoffs, despite the simple fact the season structures of the two leagues could quite simply not be more different]

 

Granted, these are probably the two best quarterbacks in the Game, but ask yourself, what predicament would Green Bay find themselves in without Aaron Rodgers, New Orleans without Drew Brees, Pittsburgh without Ben Roethlisberger, or San Diego without Phillip Rivers?  Granted, these are all teams widely considered to be Contenders, with elite quarterbacks, but that is Exactly the point.

 

I don't want to turn this into a treatise on the importance of quarterbacks, or possible schemes in which teams could overcome a lack of elite talent at that position (it certainly has been demonstrated as doable).  But I think the bigger picture is clearly evident, and the very game that requires so much analysis and preparation and teamwork so often falls to one single point of failure: how good is your QB and is he good enough to make you a Championship contender?

 

Many people will look at this and point out (quite rightly) that Barcelona would not be the team they are without Messi.  Barca would still be a VERY good team without Messi, but they wouldn't be AS GOOD, certainly.  Barca has players and schemes and cohesiveness that all make them great at what they do.  But I am just not convinced that the reliance on Messi to be great is as significant as the typical high-level tackle-football team's reliance on its QB.  And Messi is the most extreme example I can think of, as he is the consensus *best* players on the consensus *best* team in the world…

 

I guess, to some extent, it is a chicken or the egg question.  Manchester United has Wayne Rooney, and Manchester City has Sergio Aguero, and those two sides look to be set to lay waste to the Premiership this season.  Great forwards certainly find themselves on great teams, for sure, but with so much of the game hingeing on possession and midfield battles it seems a bit sketchy to me to pin a team's success on its striker, or vice-versa.  At the same time, an equivalent could be drawn to the "line of scrimmage" battles in tackle football.  Great QB's certainly need an offensive line to block and receivers to catch.  

 

This is going to have to remain an open, rhetorical question; one that I think is worthy of pondering but at the same time I am tremendously loathe to introduce.  I think its pretty much the hallmark of American sports columnists to mail it in and try to contrast the football they've spent a lifetime covering and thinking about to the football that has been thrust into their laps to write about.  At the same time, the sheer volume of sporting consciousness devoted to American tackle-football is pretty daunting, and I think that there are certain comparisons that demand analysis.  This, I think, is one of them.

 

The parallel is seemingly erroneously drawn in a soccer-football team's "quarterback" as being the "playmaker" [#10, enganche, trequartista, what have you] as this is tempting in terms of looking to a player to "lead" the attack and "distribute" the ball.  But for a variety of reasons (and I have devoted prodigious word-count to the evolution away from particular "playmakers") I think the actual comparison at least in terms of the messianic status and talismanic qualities so often attributed, is this the Superstar Forward.

 

If I were a engineering a team - in any sport - I would strive to avoid such single points of failure in all my endeavors*.  It is ultimately talent that wins, but a wise coach can find ways to organize and utilize that talent, using parts and getting them to add up to a whole greater than their sum.  This is part of the reason I find it so odd that SO much is put on the quarterback in tackle football, and this is so often a regularly accepted key aspect of these allegedly fantastically brilliant offensive schemes assembled by genius coaches**.  As to why anyone would knowingly do this, and as to why I am supposed to be impressed that someone with a clearly diagnosable neurological disorder bothered to write a 700-page playbook that few people are capable of even understanding is utterly beyond my comprehension.  I would point out that so often the true beauty of a seemingly complex system is its inherent Simplicity.  I am left to wonder if much of the alleged "collective wisdom" about tackle-football is little more than the result of intellectual inbreeding, and it is also entirely possible - given I have no real background in the game - that I am entirely off base.

*[I didn't know where else to interject this thought so I will put it here: it is often said in basketball that the team with the best player wins.  At the NBA level, the game more often than not seems to be constructed around Superstar players, and not so much teamwork.  This has always struck me as intrinsically tied somehow to the Marketing of the League and the Game in the David Stern era, yet another reason on the long list not to like the man, IMO.  Granted, this is not Always the case]

**[the cult of the "genius" coach is akin to the messianic striker complex, and really worthy of its own discussion]

 

Soccer-football, being a global phenomenon, seems to have some built-in defenses against such inbreeding, although regional trends certainly appear and are actually a character of the game.  But I keep coming back to the same root thought, which is that any time such a system arises and becomes successful, someone else is going to come in and knock it down.  In a limited sport like Tackle football, that may take more time; but in a global sport like soccer-football, these things would logically have less of a shelf-life.  In the end, your best bet is to construct a system which de-emphasizes its dependence on one cog.  And in the end, it may be that getting too caught up in trends, cults, and complexes will only lead you down a dead end.

 

Earlier this week we got a good example of what can happen when a handful of key players are missing, for various reasons.  In a League with such tight economic restrictions as MLS, I find it a bit odd that it was widely assumed that the Sounders need to and are going to sign another DP Forward, as if spending the bulk of the team's money on goal scorers is going to address lack of depth at Fullback, and provide for the type of pedigreed midfielders which are generally the true driving forces on most good teams.  I suggested a few weeks ago that given the holistic nature of the game, it isn't necessarily important that forwards score a lot of goals.  When chances go wasted, as they did Tuesday night , the tendency is to search for the simplest solution: that a better finisher would have won the match.  But as we all know, the real problem Tuesday was overall lack of availibility throughout the XI, and even the Superstar Striker would not be available EVERY match.

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While a "clinical finisher" would probably help our cause

I still firmly believe we don’t NEED one like so many people seem to be saying. May I remind everyone we are #1 in the league with goals scored? That’s with:

- Steve Zakuani’s season ending injury
- OBW’s seemingly season ending injury
- Nate Jaqua’s loss of form

Jaqua was our #2 guy in 09. He was USOC Golden Boot winner in 2010, but lost most of the season due to injury, and now seems to be struggling to regain form.

We all know about Zakuani and OBW and what seems to have likely been for both of them this season.

My point being: With all this adversity to our top goalscorers, and yet we can still manage to come out #1 in goals scored with as of 3-4 games ago? This is really a testament to the team that Sigi has built. And with Zak/OBW coming back next season, I only see this getting better. I don’t know what Jaqua’s contract looks like and if he’s up in the air as far as next season or what, but at this point it seems like we should give this galactico target forward thing a rest and invest in something else.

by chrisperry1983 on Sep 22, 2011 10:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Elegant proof

The fact that you completely forgot about a DP target forward who has a statue memorializing his career is an elegant proof of your point.

by Abbott Smith on Sep 23, 2011 6:12 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Its not so much that you NEED a great QB to be a champion.

but more that a great QB will make your team better. Peyton Manning is a prime example of this.

For example: The Baltimore Ravens won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer, hardly a superstar.

The Bears got to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman, again, hardly a super star.

The list is even bigger in college football: Craig Krenzel at tOSU comes to mind. Granted you cannot with if you don’t have a good QB, but that goes for the other positions as well.

And FWIW, I think most people when they refer to the USMNT “needing a Messi like superstar” to succeed, they are referring to a player who will captivate the nation and spark a widespread interest in the sport. Just my opinion, but if the USMNT could legitimately say we have the worlds best player, you would see a big increase in interest.

I miss *REAL* Four Loko

by B-Lot tailgater on Sep 22, 2011 10:12 AM PDT reply actions  

While I agree the desire for a superstar forward is over overblown in some circles,

but i understand the desire. Do the Sounder’s “need” such a player? No. Our team is more creative and scores goals better then almost any other team in the leauge. However, there are players out there that can change a game in one moment of shear brileance. Those players can turn a subpar performance into a victory.

My point is its true we don’t need a forward to be competitive and I don’t want us to sign a player just to sign someone, but that doesn’t mean we should not be looking for that impact signing because those players do exsist.

There might not be a single player that can turn a bad team into a good team but there are players that can turn a good team into a great team.

"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."

by DarthGreedo on Sep 22, 2011 10:20 AM PDT reply actions  

Real Salt Lake doesn't have a superstar forward either

…and they do just fine too. Soccer is a team sport. A good team will often overcome a good team with one big Superstar ego on it.

by Lilitree on Sep 22, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to quibble...

…but it’s debatable exactly how messianic the search for an international striker was in Seattle (at least inasmuch as the search is reflected in SaH commentary). The often-discussed ambitious target Tagoe has all the talent necessary to command a high transfer fee and price tag, but 9 goals in Serbia and 7 for the national team isn’t the resume of a player expected to become the Team Superstar. The concept, moreover, was to acquire a particular talent that could fit in to Sigi’s preferred Tall/Small forward setup with the responsibility to create space for Montero and bring the wings into the attack more effectively (Nkufo++). The “clinical finisher” request certainly came along with that, but the nature of the demand was complimentary to the players already in the team.

The rationale in favor of a target forward as opposed to fullback was simple. We were and are two deep at left back and one deep at right as far as league average performance. At Target Forward, our depth was essentially zero during the peak of transfer discussions. The team’s recent prowess on offense has been tied both to non-reliance on the second forward position (in support of your argument above) and to a tactical shift many suggested that Sigi wouldn’t accept/wouldn’t work in MLS.

The debates of the transfer window aside… some of the news commentary on Seattle’s success has potentially oversold the individual role of Rosales in just the manner you discuss. I’m not taking anything away from Rosales’ contributions, which have been stellar. I feel that the player-of-the-week and MVP discussions have somewhat overwhelmed any acknowledgment of Montero’s continuing contributions to the team (and he still gets very little credit away from these pages), the vital play of Fernandez, etc.

One aspect of soccer-football and the overemphasis of individual performances that is not attributable to a “quarterback” mentality is the limited breadth of quantitative measures of player performance. Goals and assists can be quite unforgiving (take, for example, Servando Carrasco, who was responsible for the initial possession and advancement of the ball leading to the Monterrey goal yet has received significantly less credit than Noonan). There are few strong measures of individual contributions to team play.

I’ll just end my rambling by stating that the offseason question of acquiring a forawrd depends a great deal on OBW’s health. OBW/Ochoa/Fucito certainly offer workable options so long as the core of the midfield remains intact, and would clearly make right back the outfield position of need.

by nimajneb on Sep 22, 2011 10:39 AM PDT reply actions  

If you read other message boards in the Sounder community you'll find a stark contrast to the attitude displayed here :)

Especially at the begining of the year. I think messianic is an apt description for how people were describing the need for a striker in other places for sure.

"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."

by DarthGreedo on Sep 22, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

that's why i added the preface ;)

“inasmuch as the search is reflected in SaH commentary.” As an out-of-towner this site definitely defines a great deal of my perspective on the fan community at large. Still, as skewed as that perspective may be, other websites/message boards doubtlessly become rather skewed themselves in the opposite direction (BigSoccer anyone?).

by nimajneb on Sep 22, 2011 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking from my perspective

and some of my friends who are also season ticket holders, the thought of a messianic striker never crossed any of our minds. We’ve wanted a solid, reliable big guy who could be there for 10-12 goals every season, from the very beginning. Nothing flashing, just a workaholic, overachiever type would be nice. Then OBW, N’Kufo, et al, came on the scene and it seemed like we might have that guy. Oooops on N’Kufo. OBW becomes another of our fallen warriors (dammit). Suddenly we don’t really have any reliable, workaholic options. It would have been nice to get someone at the transfer, but it’s obvious it was never essential. Just #1 on our wish list. We’d also like to see Seattle bring in or draft a 6’3-4" CB. Hey…. it’s good to dream as long as you don’t lose sight of the reality.

by swansuite on Sep 22, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Montero is 10+ goals every season

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Sep 22, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

and that's absolutely great

but that’s not what we’re (my friends and I) wanting. A large body, hard working journeyman who is a solid consistent threat in the box in the air. Nothing less, nothing more.

by swansuite on Sep 22, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

what you describe

is going extinct in Europe, forwards are generally expected to be more versatile players now… while there is a certain role for them, and a certain “English” aesthetic which still appreciates it.

...and you will hear us scream

by malcontentjake on Sep 22, 2011 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

not at all...

a league average player physically suited to the position would be adequate to Sounders needs. OBW, for all his faults that may or may not be smoothed out by development, is more capable in the air than Levoonqua and has the additional benefit of speed enough to help stretch a defense. I have no great expectation of him being a long-term starter. Likewise, Ochoa is a project, albeit a moderately promising one. If the core remains intact, however, neither need to pan out in order to get decent production from the team with Fucito as an incumbent.

The point is that, with the personnel here at this point in time and assuming health, right back would be a greater overall need. It doesn’t take much faith in OBW to say so… just faith he’s a relatively superior option to Zach Scott (or, since we’re talking potentially third string, the Estrada conversion).

by nimajneb on Sep 22, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not quite apples to apples

Tackle football QBs touch the ball every offensive play and have a disporportionate outcome on the game. Great QBs can make an otherwise average team a contender. I think that makes tackle football fairly unique amongst major team sports.

That said, I don’t disagree with the point of your post.

by ledjom on Sep 22, 2011 11:08 AM PDT reply actions  

On the offensive side, yes

On the defensive side, a pitcher in baseball is also a true single point of failure. Every sequence begins with him and if he can’t throw strikes, you may never get up to bat.

But yes, the point stands that there’s nothing equivalent to a QB in soccer.

by CarlosT on Sep 22, 2011 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Although

I think it is AWESOME when keepers take free kicks and then race their asses off to get back to the goal :)

by Milo1 on Sep 22, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've been saying for a week that

we need to get Keller a PK.

Keller has zero goals for his entire 23 year career. He can’t be any worse than anyone else on the team.

Especially if we are leading by a couple and it’s late in the game.

by Jack Brando on Sep 22, 2011 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not in the run of play

If it’s saved the ball is live and we don’t have a keeper

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Sep 22, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Starting pitchers only play 1-in-5 games, though

Not every game, like a QB. And they also don’t play every pitch of every game. I’m not very versed in the sport, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the average starting pitcher was there for roughly as many at bats as your average starting batter.

by Tohoya on Sep 22, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking of #10's

Right out of the gate in his interview, Mauro says (translated by babelfish):
 
It is a personal desire to be able to complete my career at Newell’s. Now, i am about to sign for two more years here, and then i would go back to Argentina.

Chanting Two more years! Two more years!

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/sportsnation/deportes/chat/_/id/40299/mls-y-fútbol-mundial?cc=3888

by Milo1 on Sep 22, 2011 11:46 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Thanks for the link

Seems like he says he’s signing a two year extension before the end of the season.

(fingers crossed)

by Jack Brando on Sep 22, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm posting some comments from Adrian as well

Hooray practice

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Sep 22, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

The beauty

of soccer is that the player needs the team MORE than the team needs the player.
The definition of a team sport, the ultimate team sport.

Not that the Sounders wouldn’t be great with Messi, they would be, but the bottom of the Spanish league would NOT be great with Messi….Messi makes Barca a winner, but Messi needs to be on Barcelona to win.

I love basketball, but that is the worst part of it. It is the opposite of soccer in that regard. Your team is only a contract expiring away from a LaBron sweepstakes.

by Charles J on Sep 22, 2011 11:46 AM PDT reply actions  

BTW

I am saying the Sounders would be great in MLS and the Spanish team would not be great in their league.
I don’t care to get into which is better a good team in the US or a bad team in Spain….I don’t care….at all.

by Charles J on Sep 22, 2011 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Combination of issues

Yes, fans tend to glorify forwards above all other positions since they’re usually the ones actually scoring the goals that the rest of the team enabled.

But it also happens to be one of the Sounders’ biggest areas of need. We have excessive depth at midfield and centerback, but lack depth at fullback and until Fucito and Montero stop occupying the same space we basically have one starting forward.

That said I’d be just as happy signing a world class player to upgrade Evans/Friberg and letting Ochoa/Fucito pair Montero as I would getting a star forward.

Nos Audietis

by sidereal on Sep 22, 2011 1:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Messi in Argentina and Messi in Barca are two diffferent players

While I think Messi is the great player, the US NT would not be any better with Messi than it is right now. Certain players are benefited by the system and quality of the rest of the teamates, which I think works well in Messi’s favor. I do not think Barcelona would Messi as much Messi would miss Barcelona. Did Barcelona miss Eto’o? Did MUtd miss Ronaldo? Love to see Messi playing for someone like Blackburn, Mallorca. 5 to 10 goals per season max.

There is no way that any forward would improve our game on Tuesday. It is not like we created a lot of chances and did not capitalize. We were just flat on Tuesday’s night.

I was not, and I am not upset about Sounders not signing the forward. It would be nice, but at the same time, it worked well. I know a lot of people wanted Sounders to sign Tagoe, but at the same time, he could not make first 11 in his team even though two starting forwards are injured, so maybe that say something about his quality.

by seattle 13 on Sep 22, 2011 3:22 PM PDT reply actions  

I actually do.

If you could add two, three players around Messi yes, but just Messi alone, I do not think so.

by seattle 13 on Sep 22, 2011 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually agree

the problem with the US NT is more systemic than anything else; but then again that’s another “chicken or the egg” question: does a great system make great players or do great players make a great system. On the one hand, you have Germany, who make the WC 1/4’s (and usually semi’s) every damn time and it seems there is little more to it than wearing THAT shirt, then you have Sapin, which were perennial underachievers until Barca essentially developed a national team for them. Speaking of which, Iniesta and Xavi are probably THE TWO best CM’s in the world, at WORST they are 2 of the best 4, and they actually drive Barca…

Messi would help, but in the end I see him suffering the same fate as he experienced against Germany last summer, when he was just marked out of the match…

...and you will hear us scream

by malcontentjake on Sep 22, 2011 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

But to say the USMNT wouldn't be any better?

At all? Really? I mean, I don’t think anyone thinks they’d be automatic World Cup contenders, but they’d be noticeably better.

by Aaron Campeau on Sep 22, 2011 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure they would be "noticeably" better

It was brought up elsewhere in these comments that Messi wouldn’t be Messi playing for a lesser club. He is certainly a brilliant player, but he wouldn’t be LIONEL MESSI playing for the USA, becuse he wouldn’t necessarily have the supporting cast to help him be great.

You may be right, but I don’t think its a given.

...and you will hear us scream

by malcontentjake on Sep 22, 2011 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

They're noticeably better when Dempsey plays vs not playing

Dempsey < Messi

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Sep 22, 2011 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think there are soccer players, and then there are SOCCER PLAYERS

Wasn’t sure how to really write that out to get the same effect as saying it. Anyway, Messi is in a league of his own. So are guys like Ronaldo, Iniesta, Rooney, etc. When you’re talking galacticos level, I think no matter who the team is they’re going to make a big impact.

by chrisperry1983 on Sep 22, 2011 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

For 35 years of watching soccer, there was only one player in a legue of his own

Diego Maradona. The only player who was able to achieve success with the bunch of average players on the national side. I think many times, the players are sucessfull because of the system employed. Why was Henry so great for Arsenal, but not so great for Barcelona or sucked for Juventus. Why Ronaldo can not win anything with Portugal? Does he really have a big impact on Portugal? Or Rooney with England? Last two world cups – zero goals. England did not qualify for 2008, so is Rooney making the big impact. Messi’s impact during the last world cup or Copa America? It is a team sport, and one player can not change a lot (Maradona was just an exception) on the national team level, where you almost do not have any time for practice and preparation of different strategies.

by seattle 13 on Sep 23, 2011 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you are only judging a player based on about 5 games every 4 years

That misses a lot of their impact.

Is the USA better with Donovan on the field or not? If they are, why wouldn’t they be better with Messi?

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart

by Dave Clark on Sep 23, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am not judging just on 5 games, but just stating there is a huge difference

between club and national team play. All these club superstars can not do anything for their countries, but again there are good players at club level like Miroslav Klose or Podolski, who play like superstars when they play for Germany.

Yes, the USA is better with Donovan on the field, but that still does not mean it would be better with Messi on the field. The opposing defense would just concentrate on him and close him down as they do when plays for Argentina. Is Argentina better with Messi on the field or not? Honestly, I do not see any evidence to say yes or no. I think they would probably get the same results with him or without him.

Again, this is just a difference of opinions. I do not agree with presumptions that just because someone is a superstar at club level, it would make any national team better, but a lot of people probably think differently.

by seattle 13 on Sep 23, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

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