Neagle and playing time
by The96Picks on Sep 6, 2011 7:46 PM PDT
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As we all know, the Sounders have been on a great run as of late. Part of that success has been due to Federal Way's own Lamar Neagle, most notably for his famous hat trick against Columbus. However, he is "stuck" on the depth chart behind two excellent outside midfielders in Alvaro Fernandez and Mauro Rosales. In fact, most of our midfield and forward play is very good, with the exception of one position. And it happens to be a position Neagle can play quite well.
I'm talking, of course, about the position of target forward. The Sounders have gone through the Roger Levesque experiment, the Nate Jaqua experiment, the Pat Noonan experiment, and, most successfully, the Mike Fucito experiment. And although Fucito is good, he isn't something special right now. And he certainly is not great playing as the furthest guy up.
Lamar Neagle is just an inch shorter than Levesque and Noonan, which means he is physically better suited to play the position than Fucito is. Unlike Jaqua, Neagle is not someone who can score only when the ball is put at his feet (and Jaqua only scores sometimes when that happens). Unlike Fucito, he has an aerial presence. Unlike Levesque, he has played as a true forward. And unlike Noonan...well, Neagle is just better than Noonan.
To find that Neagle is capable as a forward, we must look back just a single season. The 2010 USL Second Division Most Valuable Player was employed as a forward, putting up a prolific 13 goals in just 20 appearances. Granted, the defenses he faced were probably not very good, but those players were no worse than those surrounding him. This leads me to believe that Neagle was very good at creating something out of nothing, doing all the work if he must. With that said, he seems, to me at least, to be a good fit in our attack. We have plenty of guys who can score goals, and Neagle's work rate seems prime to excel at forward.
Lastly, Neagle has played well, and scored, when he has had opportunities. He won't have many opportunities anywhere else, so the team might as well give him a shot up front.
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Here's what I don't get...
Neagle is playing well, and playing quite often, as a midfielder. Why move him now?
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
If everyone was healthy and fixture congestion was not an issue, Neagle would not be starting
So I’m assuming that’s what this is about.
To your point, the Sounders have a very congested schedule coming up so finding time for Neagle won’t be difficult.
On the other hand, the winger rotation for 2012 becomes much murkier due to Steve’s hopeful return from injury. But that’s an expansion draft and offseason away…
exactly
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 8, 2011 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's what I don't get
Why do you think that Neagle is better in the air than Fucito? Lamar actually wins fewer contested headers. It takes more than height (see Peter Crouch, or Charles Barkley)
Ok, I also don’t get why we think the offense is broken and needs fixing. At this point the rotation among the 3 more attacking midfield spots will get plenty of time for everyone with 14 games in 7 weeks prior to the Playoffs. That time will probably go out in the following order: Rosales, Alvaro, Neagle, Evans, Friberg if all are healthy.
The Forward rotation is much different though. But it is clear that Sigi is willing to use the small/small pairing (heat maps actually show that Fucito is in space like a target more than Montero, but this is not his role).
Four weeks ago I might have been an advocate for this idea. But right now, the team is doing well. This isn’t just based on the results, but the style they are playing is suited to their personel.
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I'm not saying it has to be permanent
Just an idea. None of our current forwards have been outstanding, so why not give him a chance?
Fucito has 1 less goal, 1 more assist than Neagle
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Or
Neagle has one more goal than Fucito, and he hasn’t played at the top of the attack. Why not give him a chance at a featured role, since he’s produced more than Fucito from the midfield? Fucito can play on the wing too. Let’s not pretend that Fucito is so awesome that he has earned an unchallenged spot.
It’s not a crazy idea.
Don't play a dangerous game.
it's not a crazy idea...
for next year.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Sep 8, 2011 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Offense
Dave I guess here’s the Nirvana-inducing, overlooked point that you make right now that brings up all back to reality.
“I also don’t get why we think the offense is broken and needs fixing.”
I think we are all super excited at the talent that’s been shown, the astronomical levels of potential we all see, but how quickly we forget the context.
I am Lamar Neagle’s hugest fan. I think he’s one of our two most important players.
But let’s remember as of right how, Neagle isn’t anything more than player who’s been very efficient in limited time. Limited time isn’t real time.
So long as the offense is cooking – and it surely is now – we needn’t really worry about anything.
That said, can someone soon on a main post discuss the number of players who we can keep regarding the expansion draft and also other sounders-specific DP issues?
I probably won't cover the expansion draft until after the Sounders win a few trophies
Games>NotGames
I also don’t know what you mean by Sounders related DP issues.
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by Dave Clark on Sep 7, 2011 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This might be a good idea for next season
when Neagle will theoretically be stuck behind Zakuani and (probably) Fernandez at left mid, but I have to agree with Jeremiah and Dave that I just don’t see the need for it at this point. The team needs quality players 2 deep at most/all positions for the stretch run and Neagle is just seeming to get his feet under him as a midfielder. Plus, almost all his goals have come when he has space to run at his defender. He might play well as a forward in MLS – it’s not clear at this point – but why mess with a good thing at the moment?
by Nevtelen on Sep 7, 2011 9:14 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Super subs for the win!
Having depth on your bench to help Sigi adjust to different teams and also push the starters to continue to play their best. I like this discussion when Steve Zakuani is back next season, but lets not disrupt his position and others just yet.
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
I can see why some want to fit as many talented players on the field at the same time as they can
However, there is nothing wrong with having a talented player on the bench. It seems to me American soccer fans are too used to bench players being crap that they refuse to allow for a sub to come onto the field that is helpful. Too often in the past Subs were always a downgrade because there was no team depth. Its a good thing to have lots of good players.
Being able to rotate players to account for fatigue, team strategy, or form is a good thing. Neagle’s game is well suited for the inverted winger role. That is a completely differant position with a differant skillset then a forward.
"The fans are excited. And the stadium, well, it ignites with explosion."
by DarthGreedo on Sep 7, 2011 9:47 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Sorry if I was unclear about this
but I’m not suggesting a permanent change right now. Maybe give it a shot in the Reserve League. I’m only suggesting a way to give him more time, and at a spot where we don’t really have a clear answer.
"I'm talking, of course, about the position of target forward."
I think the past two+ months have shown that we don’t need one.
I'm really interested to see what happens in this department in the off-season
Does Sigi really push for us to sign a great TF or two to bolster the team or will he abandon the big/small pairing up top permanently?
I think the odds are good the team targets a striker, but I think that striker being a target forward is less likely than it used to be
by Aaron Campeau on Sep 7, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
It should really depend on whether they sell Montero or not
I think some of the shift has to be because of what type of players are also on the team. With so many strong (for MLS) technical players the shift to the small/small has maximized the talent on the squad.
Without Fredy though he probably reverts to his more typical strategies.
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Montero vs Zak
2 different players.
2 different positions.
2 different rolls.
2 different histories and identities.
2 players stereotyped in 2 different ways.
If these are our two most valuable players – and they are valuable to others – we can and should shed 1.
The question becomes which one.
Pro Keeping Montero:
Montero is more proven.
Montero is in a position the Sounders are thought to be less deep in, conversely Zakuani plays our deepest spot. (Chicken egg? Spot makes the player in Sigi’s scheme? Cant be a coincidence, see remainder of thread.)
Pro Keeping Zakuani:
Montero prolly fetches more. (but what does this matter in our current financial predicament at all, really)
Montero is ultimately less relevant to our offense?
I think ultimately this thread is about – what do we do with all this talent!? If we can’t keep it all, we need to leverage it to our best advantage – and at the valuble top – one of these pieces has to go. Thoughts?
I say we definitely keep Freddy over Steve. Neagle stays. Rosales and Fernandez stay. Alonzo MUST stay.
Considering that Steve Zakuani's value to a non-Sounders team is zero right now
He’s staying
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by Dave Clark on Sep 7, 2011 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What? I’m sure if the entire MLS were re-drafted from scratch at this exact moment – or in the offseason as i believe the commenter is alluding to , Zakuani would be in the first 15 picks. It’s ludicrous to think he has no value to other teams. I think a case could be made that he has the most value of any Sounder on the open market.
That said, I’m not really sure what the Ralf guy is talking about.
Don't play a dangerous game.
Zakuani is not assured of being anything when he comes back
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How many players in any sport have you seen picked up by a new team after a fib/tib break?
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Many players have come back from this type of injury and gone on to have long successful careers
I don’t think anybody expects anything less of Zakuani. If a guy of his caliber were left available, even with injury, I’d bet he’d be picked up first thing. There’s too much gain to worry about the small risk.
by chrisperry1983 on Sep 9, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry, how many players have you seen picked up on transfer or trade after having this kind of injury?
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It's hard to get exact numbers but here are a two that I could quickly pull up:
Djibril Cisse – Broke tib/fib with Liverpool. Went on to play at Marseilles later. Broke his leg again while signed to Marseilles. Went on to play at Sunderland, Panathinaikos, and Lazio.
Aaron Ramsey – Broke tib/fib with Arsenal in 2010. Recovered, went on loan to Nottingham, returned and loaned to Cardiff, now back with Arsenal.
Your question though is a bit loaded. If Messi broke a tib/fib, would Barcelona want to let him go? I doubt it. Your question is based on the premise that teams would even be willing to let people go. If they aren’t willing and no trade is made, it sounds like you chalk one up to your side to make your point the non-trade being a result of injury.
That said, if Messi was put up for grabs after snapping his leg, I’d bet you a Pliny that every team in the world that could afford him would me stomping each other to get the opportunity to sign him.
by chrisperry1983 on Sep 9, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Cisse didn't move while injured.
He recovered from his injury, and then was desired by other teams.
Ramsey was actually resigned by Arsenal and played or the Arsenal Reserves before being loaned out.
It is extraordinarily rare in any sport for a player to be moved while trying to recover from a career threatening injury.
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The way your question was worded, I thought it sounded like transfer post-injury
If we’re talking of the injury relative to say, a transfer window, then I can understand your point. A new, serious injury would probably dissuade most people. But if the guy is on the mend like Zakuani and may just be a few months away from action (due to fitness and final bits of healing) that’s where I’m disagreeing.
Again though I think a lot of this hinges on who the player is. I’m saying if Messi snapped his leg today and tomorrow Barcelona put him up for grabs, teams would be clamoring to get him.
by chrisperry1983 on Sep 9, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
We've certainly been good offensively
the past two months, but do you not want a target forward?
Many teams play without a target forward
And win. Some overcommitt to the idea of a target forward and lose (USMNT)
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by Dave Clark on Sep 7, 2011 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Zakuani is likely a forward next season
it’s a natural progression for a player of his talent. He’ll slide in from the left a la Henry, Van Persie, Rooney, etc.
Don't play a dangerous game.
If Seattle played a three forward system I would think you are right
but they don’t. And so I think that he will continue to play where he has the most use, on the wing with the ball at his feet in space where he can use his speed and technical ability.
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It's funny how playing EA's FIFA gives me a weird context in these discussions
I keep thinking about where on the pitch each player would fit best and then trying to find a formation that would work ideally for all of them… In my mind:
Zakuani is a LW who could play just about any wide role, but LW is his best fit.
Montero is a 2nd CF or CAM
Rosales is a RM, RW, or CAM
Fernandez is a RM or LM. We’d like him to be a CM but he hasn’t shown the ability to be effective there.
etc.
Trying to figure out how to get your best XI on the pitch is important, but in the reality that is this point of this season, the key is to make sure that you put your best 18-20 players in the best positions to succeed while keeping everyone fit and in form.
Prior to coming to MLS about 40% of Alvaro's time was at CM
He has a handful of appearances there with Seattle and has shown well, most recently was against the LA Galaxy in the Open Cup. His passing ability, vision and positional awareness are almost perfect for as a box-to-box type.
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by Dave Clark on Sep 8, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I can see that happening
with the Sounders playing a 4-1-2-3 next year. Friberg and Fernandez slot in ahead of Alonso. Zakuani plays on the left, Rosales the right, and Montero roams the final third in the middle.
Sounds like you are describing a 4-1-4-1
But I am not sure this fits Sigi’s tactics. Still, I can’t wait to have Zakuani running, smiling and playing again.
Nos audietis in somniis, Nos audietis in altum: You will hear us!
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