MLS Draft 2012: Maybe Sounders' Pick Of Andrew Duran Wasn't So Crazy Afterall
To the outside observer, the 2012 MLS SuperDraft seemed to be breaking almost perfectly for the Seattle Sounders. Despite holding the No. 15 pick in the first round, three Generation Adidas players were available to them when their turn finally came around.
Forward Dom Dwyer, who many seemed to think was high on the Sounders' list, was one of those players. Enzo Martinez, a player that would have seemed to be a nice fit if the Sounders wanted more of an attack-minded central midfielder, was also there. Tyler Polak, a leftback who played in the Creighton defense that had allowed just five goals all season, was, too, available.
The Sounders, it would seem anyway, had an embarrassment of riches from which to choose.
Instead, they picked none of the above. Rather than make a pick that would have been universally praised, they selected Andrew Duran, a player only the hardest core of hard core college soccer observers knew anything about.
At first blush, the pick seemed odd on numerous levels. They had passed on an opportunity to take any one of three players who would not count against the cap. They had opted against picking players league scouts had apparently thought highly enough of to entice them to leave school early. Even worse, Duran's MLS-distributed biography showed just one full season and noted that he suffered a serious knee injury in 2010.
Judging the pick just on those criteria, though, would be folly. Clearly, the Sounders saw something different in Duran than what shows up on a stat sheet. Just as importantly, the Sounders also saw something that doesn't seem so obvious to many draft observers: Generation Adidas players are a bigger risk than they often seem.
Among the more well-known benefits of drafting a Generation Adidas player is that they do not count against the salary cap. (The other big benefit in previous years has been that they don't have to be protected in the expansion draft. With no 20th team yet secured, there won't be an expansion draft for at least a year, so we can ignore that aspect for these purposes.) That part of the GA deal, though, is highly overblown.
While it's definitely nice that teams don't have to worry about fitting GA players into their salary structure, the vast majority of the other drafted players don't count against the salary cap either. Other than in a few exceptional cases, seniors sign deals that are either the league minimum or lower (so-called apprentice salaries) and can occupy one of the up to 10 off-budget roster spots. Duran will surely fill one of those spots if he makes the team.
Unlike the contract most seniors sign, though, GA players make considerably more than the league minimum. While that's a non-issue as long as they remain part of the GA program, they don't take a pay cut after they graduate and start counting against the salary cap. An example of how problematic this can be was showcased recently when Chivas USA elected not to protect Zarek Valentin in the expansion draft after he graduated from GA. Valentin's total compensation last year was reportedly $132,000, a figure that is higher than all but a handful of MLS fullbacks.
Although Chivas USA expressed frustration over being put in that situation -- and ultimately losing Valentin -- they shouldn't have been. Valentin played in about 69 percent of Chivas USA's minutes last year and, traditionally, that's roughly the point at which outfield players are deemed worthy of graduation. In fact, every outfield GA player who had played such a high percentage of minutes since 2000 (via Climbing the Ladder) has graduated after their rookie season.
Non-GA players pose no such risk. Most seniors sign standardized deals that usually include an option year that rarely guarantees a huge raise. Generally speaking, most drafted players must wait a good four years before seeing a significant bump in pay and that's usually only after playing particularly well.
Money issues aside, though, the Sounders seem to feel they got the player they wanted. What Duran lacks in statistical prowess, he apparently more than made up for in his performances in front of Sounders coaches. Duran trained with the Sounders last year while at college, was one of the players invited to their Las Vegas combine and several observers told me they agreed with coach Sigi Schmid's assessment that Duran was the best defensive ball-handler at last weeks' combine.
While Polak seemed to get the plaudits for Creighton's defense, there were plenty of people who thought Duran was just as important, if not more so. Duran is also a bit more versatile than his college career might suggest, as Sounders officials are convinced he's capable of playing fullback as well as his more natural centerback.
It obviously remains to be seen just how good of a pro Duran can be, and I'm not going to sit here and sing his praises being as I have literally never seen him play. But if you were one of those people scratching their heads and throwing their hands up in disgust when Duran's name was called, I'd simply ask that you maybe reconsider that rush to judgement and consider these other factors. Maybe the Sounders are mad, but you can rest assured their is a method.
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Something similar happened when the Mariners drafted Danny Hultzen
Lookout Landing exploded because we passed up a hitter whose name escapes me right now. Later it calmed down and everybody kind of agreed that Jack Zduriencik usually knows what he’s doing more than the fans do.
I met a possum.
Yeah but picking Hultzen was still dumb.
I don’t think picking Duran was dumb.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
I still believe that the current M's front office has earned the benefit of the doubt with it's draft picks
Everyone thought T. Walker was a dumb reach and now he’s a top pitching prospect. Ackley looks like the 2nd coming of Utley.
And Hultzen dominated in the AFL, which is notoriously hard on pitchers.
The Mariners front office has a great draft record so far, to the point where the Hultzen haters need to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Sounders draft record on the other hand is much spottier.
Eh, I'm not sure I agree.
But this isn’t the place for that discussion.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think the Sounders draft record is as spotty and people seem to say
at least in comparison to other teams. Once you get out of the first round
Lets compare with LA (who I think many consider draft well).
(Only looking at the Superdraft)
Seattle (12 picks 09-11)
We’ve gotten 7 players from the Superdraft on our roster currently: Carrasco, Estrada, Fucito, Meredith, Seamon, Tetteh, Zakuani.
Ones the didn’t make it 5: Brown(made it the first year), Karkas, Wallace, Cruz, Caskey
LAG (7 picks 09-11)
They have 5 players on their roster: Jimenez, Cardozo, Stephens, Gonzalez, DeLaGarza
Ones that didn’t make it 2: Boateng, Patterson
Really to me that isn’t a whole lot of difference. With more picks comes more probability to fail especially the last couple years since we have been in the bottom half of the draft. Also with how deep our team has been it’s much less likely for these draftees to stick unlike LA which doesn’t have a whole lot in reserves/bench.
One thing we should consider is also how many of the players on LA’s superdraft picks would actually make our roster? I think Gonzalez is probably the only definite one.
We have gotten good value in all out of the drafts so far. Zakuani, Fucito the first year, second year is still a work in progress with Seamon and Estrada, last year Carrasco, Meredith, Tetteh. Considering after the 1st round there are only a few players that make it that makes what the Sounders have drafted look even better.
I would be really surprised if at least one of the two players the Sounder drafted this year don’t make it on the roster.
just a follow up since I was comparing specifically to LA
Lets be honest… a college kid making the Sounders roster is a good bit more difficult than all but maybe a couple teams in the MLS right now.
Anthony Rendon.
And JY’s reaction was hilarious because he had three write-ups done for the likely picks and Hultzen wasn’t one of them.
Work hard, play harder, rest easy.
by jwolf0 on Jan 13, 2012 9:38 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'ed for the JY reference
This post was awesome.
Side note
I once worked an MLB draft for Inside the Park with Churchill, JY and a couple others. I think we interviewed more than a dozen players that day.
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I don't remember where
and I’ll try and look for it, but I thought I read somewhere that he wasn’t at our Vegas combine.
he was invited but did not go
he was graduating.
The story was corrected.
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Method
I watched Duran play during the combine and was impressed enough to suggest that he could be a good second round option for the Sounders based on their needs when I reviewed the second day of the combine. I liked how he performed at RB as well as his natural CB.
Now that the coaches have begun to talk about the players I understand why Duran was chosen first. Seattle wanted a #9 at forward. Sodade was the only true #9 available. But because of his rawness and the depth of offense available in this draft, the Sounders expected him to fall to the second round.
In most years duran would have been a second round pick. But this year was thin at defense and most of the highly lauded picks had already come off the board. Duran fit the team’s needs and was their most highly rated CB. With the loss of Gonzo, the Sounders knew that Duran would not slip past LA at 19. The pick may have been unorthodox but it showed great situational awareness. The Sounders FO rocks.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 13, 2012 9:26 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
I tried to suggest
the same thing about LA wanting Duran over on the official boards and got laughed off (well, not literally) glad to know I’m not the only one. Although the guy they got (Meyer maybe? Can’t remember his name) perhaps was higher rated.
by Adam Waltering on Jan 13, 2012 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
Meyer is a totally different player
He’s a CB, a physical, ball-winning CB. Duran is definitely a mor nuanced kind of player.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
Draft by need
So the Sounders didn’t draft the best player available but the ones that best fit their needs.
Once again confusing talking heads and bloggers all over
Previously they looked solely at what they considered BPA. The only consistent thing about the Sounders drafts is the inability of anyone to guess what they’re going to do. I’d hate to play poker against AH and Sigi.
by Dizzo on Jan 13, 2012 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That depends...
It’s quite possible the Sounders picked the player they had the best chance to succeed in MLS. Nothing they said, or remember them saying, suggested otherwise.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Yes but...
I am already having nightmares of Enzo Martinez being a play-making monster in front of Beckerman at RSL.
I too fear this
RSL knows how to dominate the midfield, and adding Enzo to that mix only strengthens their side.
by Mugen Power on Jan 13, 2012 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
Which is totally fine
But the Sounders may very well have viewed it differently. Also of note, there’s a pretty good chance Enzo plays out wide as Javier Morales is almost certainly going to stay in the middle for them.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
I kind of look at the Sounders draft the same way I look at the Seahawks
They do not care what other people think when they draft. They look for players that fit what they want to do and if that means drafting them earlier than projected, so be it.
The Seahawks were roundly criticized this past draft for taking players earlier that others had them projected. Now, they look like they may have had one of the best draft in the entire NFL with starters like Wright, Richards, etc.
The Sounders are the same, they know what they like and that is who they draft. That Duran trained with the Sounders last summer gave the staff a close look at him. They know him. I think he will be a good contributor.
by Coug1990 on Jan 13, 2012 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Love this comparison
I’ve heard Jon Clayton talk about the Seahawks and their drafting and how they’re evaluating players differently than most teams in the league because they’re running a different system. As a result, they draft guys that other teams weren’t interested in. Clayton’s said they’re ‘ahead of the curve’. I like to think the Sounders are doing the same thing here with this pick.
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Does anyone worry about the physical resemblance to Noonan?
by ponyboy6000 on Jan 13, 2012 9:28 AM PST via mobile reply actions
It is uncanny
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
If Duran can have as much success as Pat Noonan I will be overjoyed
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Noonan of the early 2000's vintage and we'd be overjoyed
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed - Noonan was a rockstar while he was at the Revolution
Hell, I’d even take late career Noonan. Most MLS rookies don’t even make it that far.
Speculation, but
Noonan was well on his way to making the 2006 US World Cup squad before getting injured. He seemed to be an Arean favorite, and seems to still be an Arena favorite.
He had a solid MLS career
and when with NE was a good player. There will only be a handful of drafted players that can claim MLS lives as good as his.
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He was chosen for that reason alone
My theory, anyway. Every team needs a bearded presence in the locker room.
Go banana!
and the pressbox!
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
And Levesque has proven to be unreliable in this regard
I hope he’s not in any more weddings this year.
When his beard and hair are in full bloom
they are of a glory unmatched by Noonan.
by Adam Waltering on Jan 13, 2012 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
Let's put Noonan, uh, Duran aside
I could not know less about him and, even if we all watched him play every game in college, it really would not change the fact that he is a crap shoot, much like every other draft prospect in every sport.
However, the point about GA v. non-GA is very interesting. I get why the league and the player want GA deals. Until I read this article, I had not really considered that there might be a significant downsides to GA deals for teams (and, while hugely outweighed, for certain players too). A question though: Is there something in the GA contracts that prevents the team from negotiating a lower deal once the player graduates from GA (I know that is not a tantalizing proposition to the player, but I want to know if it contractually possible)? If it is not prohibited, then what risk is there really to the team? If the player graduates, he becomes just like everyone else: if you earn your contract, you get your option picked up. If not, you negotiate a lower deal to stay with your team or head into the re-entry draft (or are dealt away in some other way). While it may cause a player/team conflict after a couple of years, that conflict exists for every other player every year. If contracts can be renegotiated, it seems to lessen this downside for the team.
It seems to me that this pick came down to a couple of things. First, whether the team agrees with the league scouts who designate GA folks or whether they trust their own scouts as to who can fill the needs most adequately. It seems with the Duran pick, the Sounders spoke loudly as to where their faith lies. Given their track record, no beef from me there. Second, did the team want to guarantee a roster spot to the 15th pick. GA guys, even if off budget, are on the roster. Non-GA guys we can “Neagle” for a year. The latter seems to be as likely of a consideration for us this year and a huge reason to avoid GA guys. It also gives me hope that we are still out looking for players.
I can't tell you for certain
But the contracts are almost certainly guaranteed. And even if they aren’t, consider how a player gets graduated from GA: by earning significant playing time. It’s usually not very easy to convince a relatively young player to take less money when they are clearly a valued part of your team and playing significant minutes. Unions tend to look down on that kind of thing as well.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Non GA guys at the end of the roster don't make jack anyhoo
I know bartenders who make more than these guys. It’s kind of crazy that a major league pro athlete in Seattle makes so little. The team must send a van to pick these guys because they are probably on joe metro otherwise.
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by seattle dude on Jan 13, 2012 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
that said
they make considerably more than me … of course they also work much harder.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Another GA consideration - team depth
The deeper a team is the less likely a GA player will see significant time in league play which allows a deep team like Seattle to preserve GA status for 2-3 years. The team can develop the younger player slowly and gives them more time to train a guy before he hits peak age. Which is exactly the position Tetteh is currently in.
It is very unlikely the Sounders would have ended up in the same position as Chivas even if the Sounders had picked a GA player like Polak or Martinez. Also, AFAIK, the Sounders can play a GA player in Open Cup and CCL games and still preserve their GA status.
That misses a key component
Whether they graduate this year or in three years, they still graduate at a much higher cap hit than a non GA player would.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
In three years they're much more likely to be at the end of the GA contract
So, they would be renegotiating (or very close to renegotiating) for a new contract anyways. Assuming they reach the hype usually associated with GA players then they will have earned a higher contract and will be a couple years younger than a similar player. A really good player might be ready to move to a bigger league for a bigger contract that the Sounders can take a portion back as allocation money.
On the other hand, if they’re not as good as advertised, they will probably be in line for similar contract to a senior player whose has managed to stick with a team. Of course, they will still be a few years younger and perhaps have more upside remaining. Or they’re a bust, which happens quite often, and they’re out of the league at this point.
Here’s how I view the relative pluses and minuses of GA contract:
- Younger player with a higher ceiling (all things being equal which they usually aren’t)
- 1-3 extra years of development time (depending on age when the GA contract is signed)
- Cap protection during that development time (depending on team needs)
- Protection from expansion drafts while on a GA contract
- Less mature as a player leading to higher risk of a draft bust
- Often are less able to come in directly and contribute in league games
The positives are all linked to the ability of the team to shelter a GA player and develop him in reserve and non-league games. A team that needs a player immediately is less likely to protect a player from graduating early. In my mind, its always better for a deep team to take a GA player (all things being equal).
So, oddly, the GA system in my mind is of the most benefit to deep teams playing in multiple non-league competitions. However, the teams most likely to draft a GA player are the ones who need help immediately in league games because they are the ones with the high draft picks due to a crappy season. A struggling team might be better served taking a more developed senior that they can play right away.
I guess I just view it slightly differently
I don’t think the GA status should weigh at all once you get beyond the top 10 picks or so. You draft the guy you think will be the best player.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Hopefully, that's what the Sounders did in passing on Polak and Martinez
It sounds like we’re in violent agreement. I inclined to think they picked whom they thought would be the better player 3-5 years out in Duran. I’m just pointing out why GA remains valuable no matter where you’re picking in the draft.
The extra development time and expansion draft protection provides more time to mold a player which can be valuable for the right team. Especially since some of the lower drafted GAs tend to be high on natural talent/athleticism, but not as well developed as the seniors.
If you're saying it's good for the players...
We’re in no disagreement. Like I said, I don’t think the drafting teams really consider GA status much of a benefit after the top players get taken, rendering it a sidenote. And by that, I mean I don’t think GA status weighs into the decision of whether or not to draft a player.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 16, 2012 8:31 AM PST up reply actions
Still smarting over our choice to pass on Enzo...
It pains me that the Sounders have NEVER had a true CAM, and seemingly don’t prioritize it as a gap in the roster. They had a great opportunity to pick up Enzo Martinez, who was rated as perhaps the best central playmaker / possession player in the draft, and they went with depth in the back. I will be overjoyed if the FO has a plan for identifying, developing, or signing a true CAM, but that doesn’t seem the case. Given that we led the league in scoring, maybe I shouldn’t see this as such an issue….but can anyone tell me why SSFC seems to believe that a CAM won’t benefit our game? I just picture a “Rosalesesque”, quality passer and possession player in the middle and drool over the thought of adding that dimension to our already league-best midfield. Evans is a MLS quality Box2Box mid, not a playmaker.
To Clarify...
…I think Duran sounds like a good pickup, so this is nothing against his quality. But he truly is depth. CAM is a bone fide gap in the roster, IMO. I’m not Sigi/Chris, but it it were up to me, I’d address true gaps before adding additional depth.
Even if we accept the team needs a CAM...
Which I don’t think most of us do, that player is still a depth player if our default formation does not utilize a CAM.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Teams with trequartistas don't have CAMs because it minimizes the impact of both.
As long as Fredy is in the team as a withdrawn playmaker, using a CAM is counterproductive.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Every time CAM gets brought up
think about Fredy Montero
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by Dave Clark on Jan 13, 2012 10:26 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
While not a CAM, I think of Rosales as a RAM more than a RM or RW
Or is that just me being crazy again?
I don't really know of a difference
between RAM & RW
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by Dave Clark on Jan 13, 2012 11:18 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Narrower, deeper.
A real RW (or LW, for that matter) is a wide striker.
But in reality it’s semantics.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
To be honest, the way I think about it is influenced by FIFA 11/12 which is why I asked if I was being crazy
But in my head, I think of a Winger as more of a wide striker/scorer who does some playmaking while a R/L Attacking Midfielder as more of a wide playmaker who does some scoring as opportunities present themselves. To Aaron’s point, where you draw that line is really semantics.
I think of Zakuani as a Left Winger.
I think of Rosales as a Right Attacking Midfielder.
I think of Fernandez as a more traditional R/L Midfielder.
Hopefully that helps clarify it a bit.
Mentally, I tend to think of players in broad terms with their position being determined by the way they're used.
Zakuani is a left-sided midfielder, Rosales a right-sided midfielder, Montero a central attacker, etc. In Seattle’s system, the wide players are attacking mids rather than wingers or wide midfielders, but that’s systemic. Zakuani could easily play as a true LW in a 4-3-3, Rosales could play as a RM in a flat 4-4-2, etc.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
Thank you, that makes perfect sense.
I guess the difference is you paint them in broad stripes with the specific use based on the system where I’m trying to pigeon-hole them into what usage seems to optimize their skill set.
To go back to the FIFA 11 analogy, if you put a player in a position the game would modify their rating to show how well they fit in that position within the formation and squad around them. So Zakuani might be the “best” fit (highest rating) with a specific formation/squad where he could be a LW while Mauro might be “best” as a RAM in a different formation/squad.
I honestly think Sigi doesn't want/need a CAM
His system calls for a Box2Box CM and he doesn’t want someone clogging up the space Montero works in. I personally think it would be worthwhile getting a young CAM we can train for when Montero eventually goes abroad. But the FO seems to have no interest in such a project. Perhaps they plan on finding another trequarista when Montero goes.
More likely the latter than the former
There is more to Sigi’s arrow than just Fredy.
It is also about spacing of the midfield and scrapping that for a CAM doesn’t make sense.
Relax...
…we still have Evans!
by regnaD kciN on Jan 13, 2012 7:15 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I see your point, but...
…don’t agree. It’s true that those players can play a similar style in a similar space on the pitch, but that can be the greatest asset as well. With good tactical coaching and spacial awareness, there’s an opportunity for those two players to play off of each other. Think of the Spanish and Italian teams that play this way and illicit the most flowing football in the world. Some of our best passing last year was when Rosales drifted inside. Remember the Flaco goal where Fredy brought a ball down, held off his man and laid the ball off to Rosales, whose incredible vision and one touch pass from a central space slipped Flaco in on the weak side behind the defender? Prettiest play all year. And THAT’S what can happen when you have true playmakers in central spaces!
Fredy Montero is a true playmaker that occuspies a central space.
And the Spanish and Italian teams that play the prettiest football in the world tend to play with a single striker rather than a trequartista. And are also Spanish and Italian teams with lots of money to spend.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
So when we scored that goal. Who was playing CAM?
Because if there wasn’t a CAM and instead Rosales moving into space not clogged by a CAM you just won my argument.
You could argue that Rosales was CAM
When that play occurred. That was the space he was occupying. My point is that if he, or a player with actual experience/skills as CAM, occupied that space regularly, I’d expect to see that type of interchange much more often.
You couldn't argue that though, because that's not really how formations and tactics work.
He was in that space for that one play. That’s a lot different than occupying that space on a regular basis.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
Remember back to when Ljungberg played a CAM
And Montero a WF. It didn’t work as a system. While in specific tactical cases it makes sense. Systematically it cuts down passing angles, allows defenders to guard two of the best players in one zone and prevents easy runs from wings.
Your Rosales example worked because he left his standard space and popped into a central area forcing an adjustment, not because he started there.
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Ljungberg never was, and never will be a CAM
He was a winger playing centrally, and he played that way—-running very directly at defenses. He was not a traditional passer in CM, but played more like a withdrawn forward who would spring a counter repeatedly. This, IMO, is why the experiment didn’t work—-he was not suited for that role. He should have played wide right exclusively where he could run at people.
The Rosales example worked because it worked. Whether he STARTED the game there or not is irrelevant. Point is that his skills and vision create a different dynamic in CM than we see otherwise. I’m not directly arguing for him to play there (though I’d love to see it attempted), but a player with those qualities opens up a lot of potential for interplay between our technical players.
A box-to-box CM with a good passing acumen opens up that same potential.
And can contribute greater on defense.
What we could actually use, more than an attacking mid, is a deep-lying playmaker.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed. It opens up their defense more, allows for greater space, instead of bottling the defense into one tight pack.
I have visions of Ozzie making further strides in his offense to facilitate this dream.
Ozzie is becoming that...
Most people define “deep lying playmakers” as DMs who distribute well, can hit diagonal balls into the corners, play short passes with the other CAM to open space in midfield, etc. I think Ozzie is really growing in this realm, so not sure we need another in this mold. Unless of course you define “deep lying playmaker” differently…
A Box2Box CM is not known for dynamic passing
And dynamic passing is the whole point of my argument. Anyhow, I think I’m the only one who sees it this way, so I’ll take my leave of the issue.
I hope that at some point in the future I’ll get to come back here and point out how much more dynamic, sophisticated, and creative our offense has become as a result of a CM who brings a more “CAM-like” skillset. But that day is not on the horizon, so for now—-I retire.
you're certainly not the only one that wants a CAM
and Seattle may one day have one. Estrada in reserve games actually looks good in that role.
I just don’t expect it with Sigi or Montero around
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by Dave Clark on Jan 13, 2012 11:21 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Of course, Rosales is still on the team...
And in your scenario, you’re now talking about Fredy, Rosales and Enzo (I guess) essentially fighting for similar places on the field. It makes a lot more sense to give Rosales the freedom to drift into that space when the need arises and to have him backed up by more of a deep-lying player.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
We are no Barcelona, but...
…my scenario assumes that Rosales stays wide right mostly, drifting and interchanging as needed (which the Sounders have gotten quite good at lately), and our unnamed CAM plays centrally in front of Ozzie. The CAM and Fredy would be in danger of entering the same spaces too much, but again—-good tactical coaching and spacial awareness makes this a major weapon, not problem.
That's also assuming that your unnamed CAM (and let's be honest, this started with you talking about Enzo)
is better in this role than Rosales and that Rosales maintains his effectiveness while being tethered to the sideline. Unless we find a CAM with some serious skill and tactical awareness (and that’s not some kid out of college), I think you’re going to have some issues.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
I think that's a good point on the GA deals
Because of the way their contracts are structured, you have to have a certain additional level of commitment when selecting a GA player, because if you’re ever going to use him much, he’s going to cost you a fair bit of your cap space. (Especially relative to other non-veteran players.) If you’re not sure that a GA player is what you need, it could make sense to look elsewhere. For a team like the Sounders, who figure to be up against the cap just about all the time, you can’t really separate a player’s expected contributions from his contract.
I'm not shirking responsibility for this thread, happy to engage in it...
…just aware that I highjacked the convo with my rant a bit, and if others find it a tired argument, I can drop it.
I would love to see Rosales tried at CAM. I think he has the technical skills and vision to be very successful there, playing like GBS did in Columbus. My only major concerns are that (1) he doesn’t have experience playing there much, and (2) he would be the target of physical DMs kicking out at him.
Rosales has been very, very effective playing on the right. I don’t see why, assuming the players are aware of their space and interchange as needed, the addition of a CAM would in any way diminish the effectiveness of Rosales. If anything, it might further enhance his effectiveness!
And re. Enzo, I don’t see him slotting in right away of course. To your point, he’s some kid out of college and an unknown like all draft picks. It’s the THOUGHT of a player in that mold that is tantalizing to me, and what that type of player could add to our offense. Granted, this is a very rare skillset I’m talking about—-especially so in the USA.
Don't worry about hijacking threads
The nice thing about the nested style of sBN is that we are free to have conversations go in their own tangents. Thanks for contributing to the conversation. Hopefully you find this someplace that disagreement is welcomed and even encouraged. Also hope you don’t take our disagreement as a sign of us trying to run you off.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 13, 2012 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Noted & Thanks
As long as the offense continues to be productive, I’m happy. BUT, and this is my last point (I promise), the real impact a CAM can make is in breaking down the league best defenses when we need it most; i.e. RSL & LA in the playoffs. Good teams who are well organized defensively are not going to be beat by a central midfield that has a tendency to play fairly simply and predictably. That’s when the cultured, sophisticated passing is needed most, and where we’ve had difficulty to date.
Rosales offers that skillset
just from the side. so does Zakuani.
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by Dave Clark on Jan 13, 2012 11:35 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
And anyone who does it better, plays in Europe.
Cultured, sophisticated passers that can break down quality defenses and are older that Zakuani but younger than Rosales don’t play very long in MLS. They move on up, because that kind of player is gold in the world soccer market. I’d love to have a quality CAM, they are a joy to watch but they are few and far between in MLS.
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Rosales yes, Zakuani no
Zak is quite direct as a player and is most effective due to his deceptive speed and changing direction. HE is dynamic, his PASSING is not.
Having those skillsets in wide areas is great (thank you, Rosales); having the same skillset in central spaces would also be great. Too much of a good thing is never a problem!
by Advocate10 on Jan 13, 2012 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
GBS & Montero play almost the exact same role
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by Dave Clark on Jan 13, 2012 11:23 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
I think the most likely use of the CAM on the Sounders
is Montero.
He basically plays the same role, perhaps a little bit deeper, but has OBW and Fucito (or our other forward options) making runs and pushing the line ahead of him.
"It's scintillating, it's sensational, it's Seattle Sounders FC soccer."
by LoiteringWithIntent on Jan 13, 2012 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
I personally always dreamed
of seeing Montero play a CAM role with Rosales to the Right, Zak to the Left Ozzie behind him, and with Fucito and another forward up top….
by Mugen Power on Jan 13, 2012 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
Montero doesn't play the ball fast enough
IMO, Montero isn’t a good CAM fit due to his tendency to hold the ball in stationary positions. It would be one thing if he kept the ball and advanced his position, but he often stands over the ball and wants to wait for the defender to bite before passing or beating the defender. I don’t see that playing out well in midfield as a regular occurrence. I think a CAM has to keep the ball moving to be effective at the intended purpose of disrupting and unbalancing the defense.
by Advocate10 on Jan 13, 2012 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Valderama
is the best CAM in MLS history. he made Blanco look fast in all aspects of game.
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by Dave Clark on Jan 13, 2012 11:46 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
You know who does that a lot?
Javier Pastore. It’s different, but it can be really, really effective.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 13, 2012 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Speed up the transition out of the back
One thing that has been missing from this discussion is that the problem may not just be in the central midfield. The central idea being expressed is a desire for the Sounders to quickly transition the ball from midfield to the more attacking players. Seattle has been plagued a bit with bogging down in the MF.
While this will still happen with teams that hunker into a defensive shell, if the Sounders can speed up the transition from defense to attack, this will create more MF space and unleash the Sounders attack.
The big picture of this offseason is that the Sounders FO is working specifically on this skillset. The new GK, RB and Duran all fit the mold of a more fluid transition game. Gonzo and Burch were selected for the same reason. The Sounders are hoping to open up teams by creating a much more dynamic transition out of the back. This will make the play makers more effective because they will be hitting teams during transition rather than in a fixed shape.
It should also be mentioned that Duran was converted to defense from the MF when he went to college. His genesis from MF to CB are still readily apparent in his handling of the ball and approach to playing with the ball at his feet.

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