Depth Chart: 3 XIs - We Do It Like This
With roster competition and depth chart talk occupying the pre-training camp conversation online, we thought it would be good to give a visual after the most recent additions to the team (Christian Sivebaek, Andrew Duran and Babayele Sodade) being highly unknown we're not going to guess at their flexibility. This is primarily a resume built depth chart with a few assumption as to how Sigi is most likely to use in his system (4 backs, 1 defensive mid, 1 center mid, 2 wingers, 1 withdrawn forward, 1 target man). Soccer is inherently flexible, but this is our base shape. It is what we used for the last depth chart and the one we will continue to use until we see a shift in shape by Sigi.
Still some assumptions had to be made. Sivebaek is here for a reason and that is most likely that he'll be more involved in the attack than he was as the primary rightback for most of the last two years. Sodade's addition seems to indicate a return to a target forward style. While Mike Fucito can play as the high forward, he does it with speed and strength. Zach Scott: Man Marker shifts over to a right back as a result of Duran and Sivebaek. For perspective two rumored additions are listed. Like Duran and Sodade even if both Mrisho Ngassa and Cordell Cato are both in camp they will need to make the roster. But when recovery time is so unknown for Steve Zakuani and O'Brian White there is a possibility of one or both starting on the injured list. If so deep reserves become a possibility as they would only require roster and international slots, but little money.
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Ochoa |
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Sodade |
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Montero |
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White |
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Fucito |
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Fernandez |
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Cato |
Rosales |
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Neagle |
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Sivebaek |
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Zakuani |
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Estrada |
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Ngassa |
Evans |
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Seamon |
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Gonzalez |
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Alonso |
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Johansson |
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Burch |
Carrasco |
Scott |
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Tetteh |
Sanyang |
Levesque |
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Hurtado |
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Parke |
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Duran |
Ianni |
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Gspurning |
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Ford |
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Meredith |
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The full depth chart will return as we see practices.
71 comments
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1 recs |
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Comments
Fordward/midfielder
that “supposedly” has signed with Seattle but has not as of yet been announced by the team.
...and that doesn't include the FOUR Supplemental picks next Tuesday.
We traded our 1st round supplemental pick to move up and grab Ochoa…however, we have 2 2nd round picks (back to back), a 3rd, and a 4th. We have had some good success finding talent later in the draft (Fucito, Ford, etc). I’ll be curious to see if we don’t try to consolidate those picks into a player, money, or a much earlier pick (there are some intriguing guys that will go early in the supplemental…eder arreola, miguel Ibarra, etc.)
@alexyepz = Cordell Cato is a 19 year old Trinidadian winger/forward.
Doesn't Hurtado usually play
on the left side of central defense with Park on the right? I think you might have that backwards.
The return of THIERRY
I went to check the chalkboards
and they don’t work anymore :(
I guess I’ll just have to watch some games! :D
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
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Sparkles at RCB, Hurtado LCB
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by Timm Higgins on Jan 13, 2012 11:16 PM PST up reply actions
Oh man
The move away from a target forward was a big part of what made me so excited to watch this team last year once Nkufo/White were no longer available. Keeping the ball on the ground with technical play was SO fun to watch. I think a lot of us remember what it looked like in the first round against RSL when we had to watch our team lob balls up to Sammy Ochoa for 60 minutes. We saw a target forward shape with Ochoa/Evans/Neagle instead of Fucito/Friberg/Rosales.
Dave, please put my mind at ease. Please tell me we aren’t going back to the Sigi lob ball days. The defensive changes with attacking minded fullbacks and a sure-footed keeper look promising, but if I have to watch the kind of play I saw for 60+ minutes in that first RSL playoff leg, I’m going to be so disappointed. I thought the future of this team was in keeping the ball on the ground.
by CapHillSounder on Jan 13, 2012 1:55 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
The job description of a target forward extends far beyong winning balls in the air.
In the traditional sense a target forward was a player that used his size/physicality to hold the ball up long enough for withdrawn fowards, wingers, and other attacking players to make runs forward in support. This is what Sigi refers to when he talks about a forward that can “hold up” the ball.
How the ball gets to that forward is really the responsibility of the other players on the team. If anything, the acquisitions from the offseason so far seem to suggest that the team is shifting to an even more possession heavy style of attack, with much more ball control coming from the back four. This would mean that Sodade (if he makes the team and proceeds to get minutes with the first squad) would get much of his service to his feet.
Outside of his tremendous leaping ability, we don’t even really know much about Sodade’s ability in the air. Winning headers is just as much about technique as it is about physical tools. Timing, positioning, anticipation, and instinct are all just as important as a huge vertical leap when it comes to scoring goals with your head. Everton’s 5’10" Tim Cahill is a prime example of this. The highlights of Sodade that are available tend to support that he gets most of his goals off of shots with his feet, not his head.
The sort of long range “boom ball” that we occasionally see the Sounders play (as well as certain other MLS teams) don’t really represent a tactic as much as they do a tactical failure, especially with the Sounders. Aimless, speculative clearing balls come from players either not having options for a safer pass, or not recognizing those options quickly enough.
Flaco was also surprisingly deft with his head.
I also think you shouldn’t read too much into this post for Sigi’s future strategy.
by yuniform on Jan 13, 2012 2:15 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
Ok
Fine. But that first leg of the RSL playoff series made me VERY nervous. It was the first time Ochoa was “match fit” enough to start, it fit with Sigi’s historical tactical sensibilities, and we looked like crap, as if we had no midfield.
by CapHillSounder on Jan 13, 2012 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Rosales
also got hurt and had to be subbed out.
True...
…but should we really be relying on one player so much for our offense? Frankly we looked sub-par in almost every game he didn’t play (including the first few games where he was still unsure of his spot and had yet to build chemistry).
That's the least of my concerns this year
We had the league’s best offense last year. Rosales was a big part of it, but we had plenty of players ready and able to torch a defense for multiple goals if given the opportunity (Montero, Zakuani, Fucito & Neagle). The Sounders will be adding even more options to the attack with the (hopefully) full return of Zakuani and OBW and our new crop of forwards (Ochoa, Sodade, Cato, etc).
The Sounders will be a nightmare to plan for with some many versatile attacking options in the midfield and front line.
The long booming ball in the first RSL game was reactionary
The Sounders came out with the intent to continue their possession based game, but the RSL midfield shut them down hard. The aimless long-ball was a reaction by the back four to having few outlets in the midfield to advance possession. Ochoa looked underwhelming, IMHO, but the onus was largely on the uninspired midfield play rather than either him or the system Sigi was using.
I hear you
I guess I’m worried because when we lost our traditional hold-up forwards, we were forced to play THROUGH the midfield rather than OVER the midfield which is what I saw us do when we played Ochoa in the first leg of the playoffs in a traditional target role. It seems to cause a lot of speculative long balls, which is what I meant by “lob the ball”. I’m not talking about winning headers.
by CapHillSounder on Jan 13, 2012 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
I get that this site is enamored with Fucito and that is swell.
But I am so, so tired of Sammy Ochoa getting blamed for the loss at RSL.
Lets put the blame where it belongs, horrendous defense and the worst game Ozzie Alonso has ever played.
by ClosetCoug on Jan 13, 2012 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I dont understand all the Ochoa bashing
Considering he wasnt fully fit, I liked seeing him up top more than Fucito. And yeah, people who are citing the RSL game as a reason to hate a player/scheme need to look at the bigger picture. That game was probably the worst showing I’ve seen that wasnt played against a team from Manchester.
Go banana!
I expect Ochoa to get more play than Fucito
and he certainly wasn’t to blame for the RSL loss.
But let’s also understand that if a guy isn’t “fully fit” by that match will he ever be? He was here in mid-August and if not fully fit by late October that’s a problem.
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I'm not certain if he was or wasnt
Maybe he had a knock we didnt know about,I would agree it’s a problem but I dont see him as a 90min type player. I’m not saying you laid the blame on him for the RSL loss but others have hinted towards it.
Ochoa/Montero compliment eachother so I would expect their on field awarness to be better coming in to this year and more goals to follow.
Go banana!
There's fit and then there Rio Tinto fit
Playing at that altitude will cause any athlete problems. I think we might have seen a better showing if Sigi had saved him for the Seattle leg.
Yeah but that isn't a great excuse..
…you’re either fit or you aren’t. You’re a professional athlete – Tinto shouldn’t cause to many problems if you’re fully match fit an prepared. If you’re not, then that’s on you — no one else. And that’s a problem, I just don’t like the excuse “Well it was Rio Tinto, and it had to be the altitude.” That’s a bunch of hokum.
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by Timm Higgins on Jan 13, 2012 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think it's Ochoa's fault
But I do think that the security blanket of having a TF caused some of our midfielders and defenders to launch hopeful balls instead of building possession from the back
by Tohoya on Jan 14, 2012 8:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
To me, that's not a problem with having a TF...
…that’s a problem with our midfielders and defenders.
You can't say that it's Ochoa's fault, of course.
But our midfielders and defenders haven’t proven that they can devote themselves to the difficulties of building possession from the back when they can lob it to a TF. They’re professionals, and this is something that’s probably coachable, but I think that it’s a valid point against slotting a TF into the lineup in the long term
Don't worry too much about the chart.
This is a chart that has no representation of flexibility. Fucito is the next in line over Ochoa. Also Levesque might be one of those too. I however could see Sodade used as a later sub against a set-piece heavy team when the Sounders are trying hold onto a lead. Other then that first team minutes are going to be tough, but the reserve matches and open cup should be extremely interesting.
by python6114 on Jan 15, 2012 10:20 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Our CM's make me cringe
I realize Fernandez will most likely move to the middle but just seeing “Evans/Seamon” in that slot makes me want to slam my head against my desk.
Go banana!
by Disco_Stew on Jan 13, 2012 2:20 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
this
depth chart based on the player in their main position only as once practices begins we’ll start seeing a more full depth chart.
I really hope that's true
about Fernandez moving over to the middle. If not we better have a new signing…soon!
Fernandez looked amazing playing in the middle in the USOC
I’m not worried
Why? Evans is a good player
Trivia question. What Seattle player has started in the middle on a Supporters Shield and MLS Cup Championship team?
Likewise...
That was a sight to strike fear into the heart of even the strongest of men.
by regnaD kciN on Jan 14, 2012 5:00 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Midfield melange
I think the midfield is a far more complex mix. Zakuani is cast as a left mid, and Evans is a center, but beyond that Sivebaek is an option at ACM, even Rosales can fit in the center. Flaco while primarily a left can slot in anywhere. It’s almost like sigi can toss them all in a shaker and dump out a midfield. Alonso/Carrasco are pretty much set as disruptive DCM types, and I can think of no better school for Carrasco. Sivebaek is supposed to be good at providing service and is a big body that should take the pounding in the MLS well. With the speed of Zakuani/Flaco on the left, and smart darting moves of Rosales on the right, the attack is set to create a lot of chaos for defenses. What I want to see out of what ever group they put on the field is controlling posession, passing in the 65%+ range and a lot of movement to spread defenses.
Why do you see Sivebaek as a CM?
your overall point is correct though. The players are much more flexible than a one position, three deep makes it seem.
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I count 31.
Even if OBW starts the season on the IR, that makes 30. Since AH has said 29 is the goal, does that mean one of the above players is likely not to make the team?
But, hopefully...
he won’t be on the IR more than say, 6 matches. Maybe we’d carry 30 til the summer window and then cut or trade somebody?
The 6 matches
is only minimal they have to wait out for being on the IL. I doubt we’ll be seeing Zak on the field anytime soon like wise with White and who knows whats injuries that may happen through the season that may end up with more on the IL.
31 would mean that every player listed makes the roster
(unlikely since 4 aren’t under contract).
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Any guesses on who doesn't?
My first thought with Sivebaek signing was that Estrada looks slightly redundant. Which is too bad I think. And maybe only one of Cato/Ngassa makes the cut.
I think
if Cato and/or ngassa are signed i think estrada would have to really battle to keep his spot.
but
really hard to say until after the supplemental draft and the pending players are named.
Estrada,
may bedcome redundant here with our recent signings, but i feel he may still be good enough to play in MLS for a diferent team. I bet the team shops him around to get some value out of a trade. It probably wont be a whole lot, but i bet he is worth somthing.
i really like how Estrada looked
At the end of last year against New England. I think he has a good chance to be a real creative spark of the bench. He may seem redundant now, but alonso, rosales, fernandez and montero won’t be around forever and I’d like to see Estrada there.
by python6114 on Jan 15, 2012 10:27 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
evans with seamon backup?
yuck. that is weak. very weak. wonder if neagle has maturity this year to be a starter and move fernandez to middle.
I think it was
mention we might see Alvaro move to the middle.
That's a safe bet
The kid gloves are off for Neagle, he’s had a full season and shown flashes. Hopefully he can put it all together this year and keep Steve’s spot warm until he’s 100%.
Go banana!
it's a true "position" for "position" depth chart here
but you can rest assure that if evans were to go down, seamon would not be first choice getting a run out in central midfield.
The return of THIERRY
No flexibility was listed
well, except for Levesque (I should probably just list him separately).
Alvaro and Rosales have experience in the middle with Seattle. There are chances that Sivebaek can play there.
If you look at past Depth Charts flexibility of role is normally included, but it is impossible to judge that for players we have never seen.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
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Surprised to see that Levesque is seen primarily as RB
Surely forward is still his primary position.
The thought there is that he played back more frequently as the season went on
And the team has added more offensive threats than he.
Again, his flexibility in role is such that listing him at one position is probably folly.
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Did he really play more as right back?
I remember one CCL match and New England away. Was there more?
He did play a few matches at midfield too, so your final point is the most important one.
He
played there in reserve games i believe as a RB.
Started season as forward off bench
then was starting forward
then midfield off bench/some time forward
then started at right back/sometime mid
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He's gonna coach some games too
| Recessionproof since 2009 | Win all the trophies! | You will surely get the Karkand |
by 253Sounder on Jan 14, 2012 9:15 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And be a stretcher-bearer
when there is an injured and/or timewaster rolling around on the field.
Respect the decision, but it severely hampers the usefulness of the exercise
A key component of Seattle’s bench depth is going to be the flexibility that was intentionally left out of this chart. By its very definition this chart is a best guess. It is an informed guess, but still a guess. As long as you make it clear that you are making an intuitive set of assumptions you could have speculated on what options players provide.
For example, listening to Sigi, Chris Henderson and Adrian Hanauer speak about Duran it is pretty obvious that they expect him to compete for a bench position because he may be able to play any of the four back line positions and maybe even CDM in a pinch. Due to the other players on the roster it would be a reasonable assumption to slot Duran into the depth chart at both CB and RB. Until he has asserted himself, put him in as 3rd string for both positions behind Scott, but I would put him in. My personal take would be to slot him in as the 2nd team RB and the 3rd team CB with the caveat that he is unproven.
The reason that I think including the flexibility is important is that it is a central component of how the Sounders are strategically building their roster. Sivebaek, Duran, Scott, Levesque, Burch, Flaco, Evans and Rosales can all play multiple positions. This is not insignificant. This flexibility extends the bench in case of injury and multiplies Sigi’s tactical options.
The other problem I have with the chart is that Seattle is moving toward a more tactical approach toward the roster. The Sounders probably won’t have a fixed starting eleven or 18. The coaches are going to analyze each opponent and shift personnel accordingly. This is key to the acquisition of a player like Sodade. He gives Sigi another tactical option at forward. Instead of looking at Fucito, Ochoa, OBW and Sodade as fixed components in a pecking order, it is probably more accurate to consider them as options of who plays with Montero based on the type of opponent Seattle is facing or options off the bench to destroy the defensive shape the opponent is trying to maintain.
In order for an analytical tool to have value it has to reflect the reality of what it is being used to analyze. By fixing the roster to a traditional depth chart format and not speculating on the flexibility that the new players may offer, the tool has become less valuable.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 14, 2012 9:33 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Including flexibility is quite important
And that’s why we’ve done it for every other chart
How good is Duran as a RB, a position he has played twice (one of those at the combine0? How good is Sivebaek as a CM a position he has less than a dozen starts at? For players we’ve yet to see how does one fairly evaluate them? They aren’t better because they are new. Levesque isn’t better because he’s returning.
By including wild guesses as to a player’s usefulness in a role it is felt that lowers the quality of the tool more than raises it. I saw some speculation online that Sivebaek would be the starting Right Mid. I see no evidence that is true.
As for seeing the forwards as fixed components with a pecking order, as has been stated numerous times the general opinion is that who starts will be a tactical decision. That’s been stated in every forward discussion.
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Fair enough
A couple of observations.
1. This chart does not make any comments about forward flexibility. The clarifying comments in the original post state that Fucito plays the TF position differently, then promptly charts him as the #2 withdrawn forward. My point is that the chart lays out a definite pecking order for a team that really doesn’t use it this rigidly. Yes, these charts normally make an attempt to block in the flexibility. But this one does not even with the players like Fucito, Flaco, Evans and Levesque who have a track record with the team.
2. I do not consider Sivebaek the starting RW. I don’t even consider him the #2 until he proves himself. Based on your argument, he should have been slotted into the pecking order at RB. This is the position on his resume. But all indications are that he will be used differently at Seattle and so you slotted him into the RW/M slot. I agree with the decision though not the place on the order. For me, Flaco is #2 at RW with Neagle playing LW until Sivebaek proves himself. Fucito is #2 behind Ochoa at TF until Sodade proves himself.
3. Based on the lack of a track record all of the new players except for Gspurning, Burch and Johannson really should go to the bottom of the pecking order at their respective positions. Until they prove where they belong, the younger prospects should be slotted into the 3rd string. Scott is the other 2nd string CB until Duran earns the spot.
4. I would have preferred if you had slotted the new prospects into the depth chart with a comment about how you think Seattle might hope to use them for depth and flexibility. Based on the FO comments we think that Seattle hopes to use Sivebaek as depth at RM and RB. The team hopes to use Duran at depth at CB and RB. Based on his use last year Scott is also another option at RB, but the team probably hopes that either Duran or Sivebaek will give them more options at the position.
My primary complaint is that you are trying to shoe horn the players’ position on the pitch into the format of the tool. Fucito is a possible #2 WF along with Rosales. But he is just as likely to be used as the TF until OBW gets back and Sodade matures. Players that have a proven record with the team at multiple positions are not charted that way when we all know that this is precisely how they will be used.
The prospects have a limited track record. I don’t have a problem with stating this. I don’t have a problem with putting them at the bottom of the pecking order at positions that we think that they might play. Heck put them in italics in positions where they are unproven but that we think the team hopes to use them. There is precedence for this in previous depth charts. But I think that the team is bringing them in to add flexibility and coverage and I wish the way in which this tool is being used for the discussion was used accordingly. Particularly since the title of the post includes, ‘We Do It Like This’.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 14, 2012 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Point by Point
1 – Every single post about the forward for the past three months is about the tactical flexibility. There is though an indication that Sigi wants to return to the big/small pairing as he stated multiple times during his conference call. This post takes that into account, but none of our writing is ever in a vacuum.
2 – by placing Fernandez as the #2 RW in this exercise it would be indicating that the starting LW is Neagle. If Seattle starts with Fernandez on the bench this year his contract is a disaster.
3 – Sivebaek as a many time Danish youth national player is almost certainly better than Estrada &/or Scott.
4 – Earlier posts about Sivebaek and Duran do mention their role flexibility, the same is true for Cato and Ngassa.
My primary complaint is that you are trying to shoe horn the players’ position on the pitch into the format of the tool. Fucito is a possible #2 WF along with Rosales. But he is just as likely to be used as the TF
Except that isn’t what was done. Fucito isn’t really used as a Target forward, but as a high forward that uses his speed and strength to create space. Again, EVERY previous Depth Chart recogonizes this.
The post title was in light of formational discussion, and like all 3XIs is a 311 song or album title. It was not meant as a complete and utter use of ANY player at all being a chess piece that can not be used in other ways.
Fine, you wanted the standard depth chart. There’s no way I’m comfortable stating whether Duran or Burch is a better backup CB. There’s no way any writer should do that. There’s no way to compare Estrada, Levesque and Sivebaek. I’m unwilling to do that until I see them play.
While this version of the depth chart tool is only a partial image of the team to fill out the standard depth chart would create an even more incomplete image as it would stand assumptions that one a handful within the Sounders Front Office have the data to make right now.
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It's obvious that we have a difference of opinion
I would prefer a depth chart where Flaco is listed as both the #1LW and the #2RW because I think that the Sounders preference will be to use Mauro, Evans and Flaco until Zak is healthy but if Mauro is hurt or needs to shift to play in place of Evans or Montero, then the team would put Flaco on the RW and Neagle on the LW, rather than leaving Flaco at LW and playing Sivebaek on the RW until Sivebaek earns the role.
But this is simply a difference of opinion. You created this version of the chart and made the decision to list each player only once in the role that you consider to be their primary function. OK.
In a few weeks, we will have a clearer idea of how the players fit together and how the coaches intend to use them formationaly. At that point we can revisit the depth chart.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 15, 2012 7:25 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
On Sivebaek
I think it is a huge exaggeration to say that RB is the position on his resume. He was converted from a winger to RB after the fall of 2010. He has just one year playing this position. That is a blink of an eye in his career, especially considering that in the fall of 2011 he played only 180 minutes in 3 matches (http://www.danskfodbold.com/spiller.php?ligaid=2001&seasonid=2012&spillerid=10850&klubid=1002).
I'll admit I can only find data in english back to Aug of 09
But in that time he has 18 starts at RB, 10 at RM, 1 at LM and sub appearances for basically every position on the field.
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My point being
He started his senior career in 2006, and played as a winger 2006-2010 according to reports. His first start as RB was at the start of the Danish 2010-11 season in August.
(My 3 match statistic for the fall season of 2011 seems to have been for Danish Superliga only, but he has two additional matches in other competitions according to your link.)
If Evans can manage
To stay relatively healthy (30 of 34) matches, i have no doubt he could improve upon his 5 goals and 5 assists and anything like 7 goals and 7 assists is really good. And if some of those come from PK’s that’s okay too.
by python6114 on Jan 15, 2012 10:35 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Goals from PKs are great for the score line
but less interesting in talking about a player’s yearly production. Should be counted as a different stat entirely (with a possible exception if the PK was earned by denying them a goal).

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