Sounders Roster Competition And Musical Chairs
Update: 20 JAN 12 Camp opened today and as expected there were more players invited. Particularly notable were two additional GKs, Andrew Weber formerly of San Jose and free agent Tyrel Lacey. This increases the competition at GK but shouldn't impact the remaining roster.
Thursday morning marks the beginning of training camp for the Seattle Sounders. Training camp is the MLS version of musical chairs. While the music is playing every one at the party gets to play. But once the music stops, some of these men are going to find themselves without a seat. The current roster of 28 players will be augmented in camp by 7 draftees and a collection of trialists. Competition just to make the roster is going to be fierce. Before camp starts, I want to take a look at how this competition is shaping up and explore some of the options that may exist for a player to make this team.
Core 25
The simplest way to make a roster is to demonstrate to the coaching staff that you are one of the two most skilled players on the team at a given position. This will account for 22 spots on the roster. In reality, due to the injuries to Steve Zakuani and O'Brian White, this will account for 24 spots on the Sounders' roster. The mandatory 3rd GK is going to take one of the remaining spots bringing the total roster to 25. This leaves 4-5 spots for the team to add developmental depth and take a chance on a player.
If we look at the returning players and the off season acquisitions, a few areas of competition become obvious. After the jump, we'll look at the Core team position by position.
GK - Right now the team has 3 GKs. Unless they bring a veteran or trialist, these men will make the team. I expect that the team will invite someone else, if just to run two games simulatanously. But for now there isn’t any competition.
CB - The team currently has 4 returning CBs in Hurtado, Parke, Ianni and Scott. This fills the 4 basic slots available. They also drafted two CBs in Andrew Duran and Tim Pontius and invited Harlington Gutierrez from Honduras. I look for the team to carry at least one more CB with the retirement of Taylor Graham.
LB - The team currently has 3 LBs: Gonzo, Burch and Tetteh. The two slots at this position are taken on paper and one of these players is competing for one of the remaining 4-5 roster spots. They've also drafted another LB in Wes Feighner and invited Honduran Ever Alvarado to camp. Chris Henderson talked about Feighner's character, athleticism and the fact that he is right footed. I have a hunch that the team will give him a look at RB.
RB - The team has only one clear RB, Johannson. Earning the second RB spot is one of the easiest ways for a player to earn a spot on the roster. We’ll explore this opportunity in more depth in a moment.
CDM - The team has two in Ozzie and Carrasco. Returning prospect Amadou Sanyang nominally slots in here.
CM - The team has one certain player in Evans. This will be another area of competition. If a player can assert himself as an CM in Sigi’s Arrow he will earn a spot. Mike Seamon and Supplemental Trade pick Andy Rose will battle here.
RW - Mauro is the clear 1st team player here. The team has many options for the 2nd team player and I expect this role to be one of the most hotly contested roster spots. More on this spot in a moment.
LW - Zakuani, Flaco and Neagle come into camp occupying these slots.
FWD- The team has 5 forwards with Montero, Fucito, Ochoa, Cato and OBW. The team will be looking for one more option at forward as insurance against OBW’s injury. They drafted two additional Forwards in Babayele Sodade and Abdul Aman..
This means that realistically there are 4 slots up for grabs in the Core 25: RB, RW, CM and FWD. Let’s look at how the competition for each of these slots shapes up on paper.
Right wing is probably going to be the fiercest camp competition. Christian Sivebaek, Jason Banton and David Estrada are going to claw for this roster spot along with some of the incoming trialists including players like Ngassa or Cato. Roger Levesque has also earned a position on the roster by being able to play here. On paper, Sivebaek looks like the frontrunner for the spot, but he will need to earn it and David Estrada and Jason Banton won’t go down without a fight. Ngassa's Tanzanian team is bending over backward to enable him his best possible shot at making the team. He should be highly motivated. If the team can secure some depth here, then they potentially shift either Rosales or Flaco into the CM.
The fifth forward is shaping up to be a battle between draftees and trialists. The team drafted 2 forwards; Babayele Sodade and Abdul Aman. They appear to have also invited Ngassa. Sodade may have the inside track because he provides the team its first true Target Forward option since Blaise Nkufo, but he will need to demonstrate that he can make the transition to the MLS game, though Cato is under contract.
Center mid is the third place on the core roster where an opportunity exists. Michael Seamon returns to the team, but he could be pushed. I expect that the Sounders will take a long look at Andy Rose here. In case you missed it, Rose was acquired in a trade for the rights to Leone Cruz. Rose was taken as the 6th overall pick in the Supplemental Draft and was a holding MF for UCLA with some experience at CB. He's been a leader wherever he's played and the team likes his soccer brain. I think that his acquisition may turn out to be the most significant move the Sounders made during the Supplemental Draft.
Rightback may be the most wide-open possibility in camp, particularly since camp will begin without Johannson. (He is currently training with the Swedish MNT and will not arrive with the team until February.) On paper, Zach Scott could be listed as either a 2nd team CB or RB. But I expect the Sounders would only like to use him at RB in special tactical situations. If one of the incoming or returning players can show promise at RB, that player will have a much better opportunity to make the roster. Returning players like Amadou Sanyang or Roger Levesque can solidify their position if they can play RB. If any of the newly drafted Defensemen can demonstrate that they can handle RB or better yet offer a tactical option at RB, they will likely earn a spot on the roster. Listening to Sigi, I think that the team is really hoping that their 1st round pick Andrew Duran can do just that. I won't be surprised if Wes Feighner and Ever Alvarado don't get looks here as well. Sivebaek can also enhance his flexibility by showing a willingness to play at RB should the team need him there. Much has been made of his comments concerning wanting to play RW rather than RB. But there is a spot on the roster at RB and as I mentioned before, RW competition is going to be a cat fight.
Final 4-5 Slots
The last few spots on the roster are going to be interesting. An MLS roster does not offer the luxury of carrying a complete 3 deep depth chart. Furthermore, the final two roster spots can be converted to Allocation Money. On a team with the budget constraints that the Sounders face, this option looms large. The Sounders FO has indicated a preference for carrying 29 players. The injuries to Zakuani and OBW may cause them to rethink this option, but for now it pays for all of the players to assume that there are only four additional slots up for grabs beyond the Core 25. It goes without saying that these spots will need to be cheap. But the difference between an offcap Senior salary or Apprentice player salary are not significant enough to matter for this discussion. So how can a player separate himself from the pack and grab one of these coveted spots? Let’s look at some possibilities.
Provide Veteran Leadership - The 2012 Sounders are going to be relatively young. Roger Levesque and Zach Scott both offer experience with their skills. This weighs in their favor if they don't earn a core spot.
Allow for Tactical Flexibility - The 2011 Sounders demonstrated the value of being tactically flexible. If a player can provide the team with another style of play off of the bench that fits into Seattle’s tactical makeup, that player dramatically increases their chances of making the franchise. For example if Babayele Sodade can offer the team a true target forward option, this might be enough for the team to carry him as a developmental player.
Positional Flexibility - Injuries happen in professional soccer. Any player who can play multiple positions well increases their cache with the team. Levesque, Scott, Sivebaek, Burch, Duran and Rose all appear to give the team leveraged depth. The key will be to show that the player can handle all of the roles.
Developmental (youth) Balance on Defense - With the retirement of Taylor Graham the team appears to want to carry at least one more defensive player and probably two or three. The team is bringing 3 extra CBs to camp for a reason. The team also has multiple players coming to camp who can play either LB or RB. Clearly the team wanted to make a tactical change at the back and players who fit into that tactical shift stand a good chance of making the team.
Upside Potential - A young player who shows that they can develop into something special is also an advantage. But the clock is ticking.
Work Your Butt Off - One of the most telling aspects of the Sounders has been the coaching staff rewarding hard work. This camp will be no exception. Every player who makes this roster will have a serious work ethic.
With this level of competition, I think that the last few slots will go to players who offer many of these things. Right now we know two things. First, at the end of training camp, some of these men will not be Sounders. Second, this should be a really fun team to watch when we take our seats as fans. Cue music.
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Agreed
Now that the dust is settling from the drafts, trades, signings, etc., that position is still thin. I like Evans, but in my ideal Sounders depth chart I’d have him as a 2nd-stringer with flexibility to fill in at other positions. As it stands, he is apparently the only MLS-caliber player currently slotted at CM.
Which, now that I think about it, leads me to believe/hope that Sigi is already planning to move someone like Fernandez to CM.
I'm guessing
the battle may be more between Neagle/Evans for a starting spot (assuming we don’t have Zakuani) and Fernandez would slot in at LW or CM based on who wins.
Fernandez is the RW backup when Rosales doesn’t go I imagine.
Sigi says:
“The middle of midfield is maybe a little bit thinner and we’ve even thought about playing Fernandez inside a little bit more because we have a few more options outside, especially with Lamar and how things come along with Sivebaek.”
http://www.soundersfc.com/News/Articles/2012/01-January/Sigi-Schmid-Q-and-A.aspx
Is Cato's contract guaranteed?
or is he battling for a spot:?
Who has a guaranteed contract and cannot be cut?
MLS doesn't release contract terms
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of course
So even the 28 under contract guys could be cut/dropped by the Santos game?
thanks
almost all of them
players at the top end of the pay scale probably have guaruntees
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wonder what the cut off is
OBW is paid pretty well, so he might be guaranteed?
Unlikely
He’s only at 100k as of last report.
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Wonderful Article!
Great content and beautifully written.
A very nice combo.
This is all just so exciting.
Thanks Abbott!
Totally agree!
Thinking about the team as a core of 22 to 25 and then who is on the cliched roster bubble.
Very excited about the season and word on the competition for roster positions in the coming few weeks. Less than two weeks until the Santos game goes on sale.
Great article
Good way to lay-out the roster slots and the stiff competition. I can’t wait for camp to begin.
Thanks everybody
Having a ball and glad the ideas have value with the S@H fans.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
Great stuff
Before I read the jump I made a list of who I thought had a roster position locked. By my count 19 can enter camp breathing easy. Putting everyone in their “favored” position my list looks like this. People challenging for positions in parentheses.
GK: Gspurning, Ford, Meredith
CB: JKH Parke Ianni (Scott, Duran, Pontius, Gutierrez)
LB: Gonzo, Tetteh (Burch, Feigher, Alverado)
RB: Johannson
CDM: Alonso, Carrasco (Sanyang)
CM: Evans (Seamon, Rose)
RW: Rosales (Sivebaek, Estrada,Levesque, Banton, Ngassa)
LW: Fernandez, Zakuani, Neagle
Fwd: Montero, Fucito, Ochoa (OBW, Sodade, Cato, Aman)
If an experienced backup keeper is brought in then Ford and Meredith’s status as locks will change. I gave Tetteh a pass due to his GA status. If OBW is healthy he’s probably a lock. As noted many times RB, Fwd, CM and RW are notable for their lack of locked in depth. Plenty of candidates for RW and Fwd. CM is thinner, but can be bolstered by Flaco moving over. The backup RB is going to be someone who’s preferred position is elsewhere on the pitch.
Decent list
But I gotta think Burch is more of a lock than Tetteh.
If they both make the squad
I expect Burch to get more time at LB than Tetteh. As I said I gave Tetteh a pass b/c of his GA status not impacting the salary cap. However I expect Burch has a very good shot to make the team and allow Tetteh to continue to develop. That would probably mean Alverado and Feighner would need to show at another position.
Burch goes into camp as the #2
Burch is the #2 until Tetteh or another player displaces him or he displaces Gonzo at #1. As an MLS veteran he is much more of a known commodity than Tetteh. Very few players on this roster are safe with the level of competition and expectation the FO will have. Anyone who thinks they’ve earned a spot before heading into camp, is in for a rude awakening.
I don’t expect the returning starters to be displaced, but no one should be complacent.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
I think you are exaggerating the competition a little
Saying that, for example, Sivebaek is under any kind of risk of not getting a roster spot is a bit out there. If that happened, it would amount to a huge blunder by the Sounders. He’s been on the Sounders radar for a couple years now, so if a six week training camp made them change their mind about him, that would be truly remarkable.
That is not to say that a player like Sivebaek can take it easy or be lazy in training camp. What I’m saying is that he just has to show up with his usual work ethic, and he’ll have no worries at all
How excited should we be about Sivebaek?
I started listing to Jeremiah’s interview with Adrian last night, but haven’t finished it yet. He made it pretty clear they see Sivebaek as an attacking player, not depth for RB (unless he says differently later in the interview) How good is Sivebaek right now? Is he likely to come in and get significant league/CCL minutes in the first two months or be a guy that comes on in garbage time every third game? With everyone healthy bar Zak and OBW, I don’t see how he nails down a starting position, but is he likely to force his way ahead of Neagle or the third forward (Fucito/Ochoa) as an impact sub or as a spot starter if one of Flaco, Rosales, Evans are unavailable?
I would compare him to Friberg
Not necessarily a solid starter, but will see a lot of time, including a lot of starts.
In that interview that I’ve been quoting, Sigi said this:
“The vital areas, I think we addressed – with Gspurning in goal, Johansson as the right full back, Burch as the replacement for Tyson Wahl and Christian Sivebaek is someone that we think has potential to be a very affective wide player and I think we addressed some of that.”
He too makes it pretty clear that he sees Sivebaek as an attacking player, not depth for RB.
Pretty much this
Sivebaek, I think, is pretty much deep cover at RB. I think he’s probably the third option, at best, there right now. That said, most of his minutes are going to be in non-MLS games or cover for Mauro if he gets hurt.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 19, 2012 9:03 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
In case of extreme emergency at RB, break glass.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 9:20 AM PST up reply actions
Sivebaek on the inside track
I agree that the team expects a great deal from Sivebaek and that he is definitely a player who the team thinks will be a significant contributor this year.
But the concept behind the article was to explore how a player coming into camp can survive camp and make the roster. The competition for a roster spot on this team is going to be fierce at the wings.
The Sounders have the most returning quality at the Wing positions. Two of the teams DPs are primarily wings and so is Zak. Neagle is also a wing. That’s 4 wing spots before we even get to other players who are returning or coming into camp for the first time. Estrada and Levesque have seen the majority of their playing time at wing. Sivebaek is being brought in as an option on wing. Cordell Cato is a winger/foward. Ngassa is a wing. Banton is a wing. That’s 10 players for what are essentially 6 slots and 4 of them are taken.
Sigi fully expects Sivebaek to earn a spot and in the interview throws down the gauntlet to Estrada. But Banton, Levesque, Cato and Ngassa are not coming to camp for a six week spa treatment. These players have skills and they will be doing everything that they can over the next six weeks to claim one of the roster spots. Just because Sivebaek is a front runner, doesn’t mean that the competition isn’t going to be a war.
At the end of the day, the Sounders will attempt to put together a 29-30 man roster that offers the team positional depth, tactical flexibility, veteran leadership and the highest average skill set that they can. The wings coming into camp represent a large chunk of talent. If some of these players can shine in camp, they might be able to rearrange the team’s thinking about the makeup. But they are fighting an uphill battle. The team has strong options at many positions this year.
At the end of the day, do I think that Sivebaek will probably earn the #2 slot at RW on the Depth Chart and that the others are competing for the remaining 4-5 roster spots? Yes. But he hasn’t earned it yet and the competition at his position is deep.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks for explaining
This might largely be just a semantic difference, but I would describe the situation by saying that Sivebaek right now has a roster spot, and something truly remarkable would have to happen for him to lose it in training camp.
Sigi on OBW:
“With Sodade we have a big forward because we don’t know how long it’s going to take O’Brian White to get back.”
and
“Steve Zakuani is making progress, but once you get back into the day-to-day grind it becomes a different type of progression. How soon he will be able to get back on the field for us in an MLS game is hard for me to predict. O’Brian White is probably a little farther behind.”
http://www.soundersfc.com/News/Articles/2012/01-January/Sigi-Schmid-Q-and-A.aspx
Balanced Depth and Quality
Not only are they deep, they are deep with balanced quality. Last year the team carried as many players as they will this year, but there was a steep drop at some positions and the limited tactical difference at others. This team is deep across the board and will be able to be more selective than previously for both tactical options and skill. Barring freak injury, this team has the opportunity to be scary good.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
better than last year?
How well Zakuani and OBW return will determine if the 2012 Sounders are better than the 2011 team. Looking at the 9 guys that have left and their candidate replacements I don’t see any significant dropoffs and possibly some real upsides.
Out – In
Keller – Gspurning
Riley – Johannson
Wahl – Burch
Freiberg – Sivebaek (slightly different positions, but they’re both Scandinavian)
Ford – Meredith (done before the end of the 2011 season)
Montano – Cato
Jaqua – White (like new signing after missing most of the year)
Noonan – Zakuani (ditto)
Graham – N/A
Lets just hope there are no season ending injuries this year
I wouldn't call Ford out
Meredith came in and played that one CCL game because Ford and Boss were both injured. All indications from last season point to Ford being #2. Unless we bring in another keeper from somewhere else both Ford and Meredith are going to be on the roster, and if we do bring in another keeper Ford is probably #3 at worst.
by Ford I meant Boss
posting under the influence
How many "bubble" players can actually be let go?
What mechanisms are there to remove signed players without a salary cap hit?
Eg, can we actually cut any of the new signees, or are they essentially guaranteed to make roster (Burch, Cato, etc)?
Also, for returning players who were not cut for the re-entry draft, can they be let go without a salary cap hit at this point (Scott, Tettah, Estrada, etc)?
Cut day is March 1 if my memory serves
very few players have multi-year guaruntees. I’d bet that the new signings are though.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
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Estrada might have a chance
I’m skeptical about Sanyang, though. Wasn’t impressed with him at all last year.
by Son of Mecha Mummy on Jan 18, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
I think Sanyang has a better shot than Estrada
Though both are on anything but stable ground. IMO, Estrada is a bust at this point, we reached for him and it hasnt paid dividens. Granted we have a talented/crowded MF but he hasnt impressed me at all in the time he’s played.
But I’m hoping both will prove me wrong and the best man will get the job. Competition is a damn good thing.
Go banana!
Sanyang
Sanyang looked athletic but useless. Sure he’s young, but you gotta show something.
Of course, from what little I’ve seen of Tetteh, I got the same feeling. Being a GA though perhaps I need to see more.
All true
But for all we know they guys they’ve brought in could look just an inept once everyone is on the field battling. I still have to tell myself that, “these are MLS backups making >$50K” and they can’t be expected to perform like starters.
One thing is for sure, having too many players at the start of camp is a good problem to have.
Go banana!
Ya,
you could be DC and only have like 20 guys at this point.
by Adam Waltering on Jan 18, 2012 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Sanyang injured in 2011
Think of Sanyang as a trialist who got an early look. He was injured last year and he was limited because of it. He has the same shot as any draft pick or trialist in camp. But like them, he will have to earn his way on to the 2012 roster. His biggest advantage is that the roster is light at CM. But he will have to prove that he belongs if he wants to stick.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
It's light at CM, but not CDM
I see him more as a CDM where the competition is much more fierce, IMHO.
Sigi's comments make it seem that Estrada is expected to make the roster
“Right now the expectation is that this is the year that the Estradas and the Seamons of the world, and maybe even a Michael Tetteh, show that they can step up and play. The obstruction that was in front of them, in terms of veterans who were coming off the bench, are gone, so it’s there chance to prove that they are ready for it or it’s time to move on to the next batch of players.”
http://www.soundersfc.com/News/Articles/2012/01-January/Sigi-Schmid-Q-and-A.aspx
That sounds to me like...
this is their last chance to prove they are willing to work and improve otherwise there are people right behind them willing to do so. It sounds more to me like if they don’t step up they’re gone.
by Adam Waltering on Jan 19, 2012 6:33 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly
If by “this” you mean “this season”, not “this preseason”.
What else can Sigi say?
I appreciate all the quotes you put up, but what else can Sigi say? He can’t say “Estrada’s been a big disappointment. We made a mistake reaching down to draft him. He’s probably not going to make the roster because the new guys are significantly better.”? (Note I’m just picking on Estrada as an example). tbh I’d be surprised if more than 2-3 of the guys with contracts don’t make the team. However its not clear which 2-3 that might be.
He did not have to say anything about Estrada, Seamon, or Tetteh.
The question that he was answering was:
Q: Looking back on the offseason, you lost nine guys and have added to the team piece by piece. What are your thoughts?
He then decided to bring up Estrada, Seamon, and Tetteh as part of his answer.
The piece that I quoted is just a part of the answer that he gave, so go to the link to see the full response. I think who he brought up and who he did not tells us a lot about their chances of making the roster.
Throwing down the gauntlet
When I read the article yesterday, I pointed out a few things that stuck out to me in Sigi’s comments including his comment about Estrada, et.al. (My thoughts are in the related Fan Shot thread.)
My take on the comments regarding Estrada, Seamon and Tetteh is that Sigi is saying that this camp is their opportunity to prove they belong. The team is deep and spots are going to be at a premium. These three players have had time to develop and now the check is coming due. Estrada finished 2011 strong. But the camp team is very deep at wing. Seamon plays a position the team needs depth at, but Seamon has to show that the team isn’t using his slot for one of the weakest players on the overall roster. Tetteh has to show that he is growing and that the team will be rewarded if they invest more in his development.
I read Sigi’s quote as saying that none of these players have a guaranteed position on the 2012 roster until they prove in camp that they deserve it. The ball is in their court.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 8:51 AM PST up reply actions
In his comment Sigi was clearly talking about the season
The part where he said “show that they can step up and play” and the whole last sentence about veterans who used to come off the bench not being in their way anymore are clearly about the season. I don’t know how those comments would make sense in the context of the training camp.
The very last statement in the quote
“…it’s time for them to push all the way through and stake their claim.”
That combined with the context of the interview being published the day before training camp opens, causes me to read the statement as primarily related to camp expectations.
But either way, they will still need to earn their place on the roster. If the coaching staff expects that they will, great for them and more motivation for the other players in camp to change the coaching staff’s precamp opinion.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Estrada was starting to blossom at the end of the season
Estrada has the chance to develop like Neagle. At the end of last season he had a breakthrough and earned a couple of spots on the 18 because of it. I was at the Monterey game and he had his moments. But he plays the position that I expect to be the most hotly contested. He has the advantage of knowing what the Sounders expect. But he is going to have to lay it all on the line if he wants to stay.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
Sigi mentioned that too:
“For now it’s a chance for those guys that have been in the system for 2-3 years, it’s their chance to show. A guy like Michael Seamon, who had a very good rookie year for us, floundered a bit last year, so he needs to show that he can get back to what he was able to do. Here’s a guy who has been with us for two years, he’s played in CONCACAF games, he’s been around the team, he knows what’s expected of him and he knows the system. The same thing with David Estrada. He really came on at the end of last year and so it’s time for them to push all the way through and stake their claim.”
http://www.soundersfc.com/News/Articles/2012/01-January/Sigi-Schmid-Q-and-A.aspx
Guys like Estrada, Seamon and Sanyang
have the advantage that they are more experienced than their potential replacements. In the off-season the Sounders lost some experienced bench guys like Jaqua and Noonan, so suddenly even these guys start to look like veterans. Our bench cannot be too heavy with rookies.
And remember, experience is not measured just in minutes on the field, but also in years with a professional team. All three have two full seasons with an MLS team, with some experience of CCL play in there two.
i wouldn't be surprised if either white or zakuani started on IR
so we could end up carrying 31 or 32 players
Yes on the IR part
But then the problem is that they still count against the salary cap.
but a lot of the players are young.. so we could sign some of them for league min
so it would count against the cap but not by a ton
It would allow the Sounders to delay the decision on a few players
therefore, giving them even more time for evaluation.
Developmental Players hit the cap?
I thought roster spots 26 – 30 can be filled with young developmental players that don’t even hit the cap; if that’s the case, we could carry OBW and Zak on the IR, but sign the Catos, Ngassas, and Honduran guys of the world to minimum salaries.
My larger concern is international roster spots. Per the latest guesses, we might have ONE available. But we have just signed Cato, and have multiple other foreign players in camp. I’m half expecting the FO to announce Flaco, and perhaps others, have received their Green Cards. It’s been their method for removing this roadblock int the past, and I expect them to pull it off again.
Roster spots 21-30 don't count against the cap
They also have to be min. salary players, or close to it.
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 19, 2012 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
If 2-3 of these new younger players turn out...
to have the ability to force their way onto the roster or even force their way up the depth chart then any of the following senario’s suddenly become options/solutions for the FO.
- With the Sounders traditionally being a deep team with several MLS caliber players backed up behind entrenched starters, the FO ofiice could work the phones and trade someone to give them a better oppotunity at strater minutes elsewhere. Much like Seba moving on to greater success at Philly. (though for a different reason)
- Possibility of Zak starting the year on DL. Sigi is very conservative when bringing players back from injury. I Wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t Zak in a game until end of April or mid May.
*Like wise, with OBW’s set back after returning to practice and games last year, there is no guarentee that his clotting issues are behind him. If not, He may have to consider retirement as clotting is potetially life threatening, not just career ending.
"Kia Kaha" -Live strong
3rd GK
I know, AH and Sigi have said the team will have 3 GKs before, but do we need a 3rd GK? If we have a U-23 team, can’t we leverage their GK (assuming Meredith plays for them) during emergency?
This team started MLS with 2 GKs and continued the second season with just 2 GKs.
At this point Sounders U-23 is an AMATUER project
I don’t know many guys that would willingly make zero dollars just for the honor of wearing Rave Green after they made 30k$ plus last year.
Also, in 2009 and 2010 there was a different CBA in place with smaller roster sizes. The League thereby had about 10 pool keepers. Last year they had 4, and that was because of the new rules quite nearly requiring 3 keepers.
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How does the retention of draft rights (like Cruz) work?
If the Sounders let some of the picks go and play in a lower division team, do they retain their rights? If so, for how long?
they retain the rights of first refusal for two years
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 18, 2012 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks Jeremiah
So does that in some way influence their choice with regards to the roster spots to give priority to non-drafted players?
Then work with a loosely affiliated group of lower division pro and PDL teams to find developmental homes for those players for the next two years. If the players developed (a la Neagle) then the Sounders could bring them back into the fold in a future season.
That's definitely a possibility
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 18, 2012 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
all year? none
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 18, 2012 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
Great reason for Levesque to learn a new position
by Dizzo on Jan 18, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
LOL
i resisted actually making a comment regarding Levesque and the GK position.
Trade Market?
Is there a trade market for guys like Tetteh or Estrada?
What would the Sounders want back in any trades?
Only thing I can think of at this point is allocation dollars.
With enough allocation dollars . . .
. . . we could buy down Rosales contract and pursue another DP. (As least that is my understanding.)
I was just playing around with the salary numbers
It’s going to be pretty hard to fit in another DP level contract even one of the youth DPs. By my very back-of-the-envelope estimates we’re going to be at around $2.57 million in base salary. Which is going to be real close to the 2012 cap and that’s not counting cost of living adjustments or automate raises in salary.
I did this a while ago
excluding any signing after burch and gspurning at an estimated $300k for the pair, and including the 5% cba increase for the entire team (not sure if thats how it works though) there is around $105k left over without spending a single dime of allocation money.
by Adam Waltering on Jan 18, 2012 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
The only way that I see the Sounders acquiring a new DP at this point is by having one of their existing DPs get picked up in the Transfer window. I like Seba. But if he can garner a transfer offer, then so can some of the current Sounders.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Seba didn't have work permit issues
Most of our most likely transfer targets have greater paperwork friction, at least going to England.
Unless the team can start consistantly generating allocation dollars
I think it’s going to be hard to keep the squad together. Though the only way to generate consistant allocation dollars is via transfer fees, thereby not keeping the squad together.
Best case scenario is for a team to build a cycle of:
1) pay for a transfer fee (via DP rule) for a young player with promise
2) give the player consistant first team time where they hopefully help you win games
3) sell the player to a better league when they are ready
4) use the allocation money received to buy down the team’s cap hit and use any surplus to pay for another transfer fee and start the cycle over
The other method would be if a team can consistantly bring up HGPers that don’t count against the cap, don’t take up draft picks to acquire, and still have a benefit when transfering out.
actually
the team gets allocation for being in USOC and CCL as well.
by Adam Waltering on Jan 18, 2012 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
No USOC Allocation
unless it is won. And that’s basically because of the CCL
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Expect both
This is the model the Sounders are built to utilize. They may not capitalize this year, but by next year, I expect that we will begin to see the rolling roster you describe.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed. I guess I was just struck at the Catch 22 of the whole situation.
To keep the core together, you need allocation dollars. To get consistant allocation dollars, you have to be very good and developing and selling players. Those players that you are selling are part of the core you are trying to keep together.
Future Draft picks, International spots or Allocation Order
The Sounders may find themselves sitting on a few assets that have trade value. In addition to the aforementioned players, the team could decide to trade assets with MLS experience such as Neagle or Fucito if other developmental players show that they are ready to take the reigns. Do I expect this type of trade? No. But if they can trade these players, the return will be larger.
Ultimately, the team can trade developmental players for a number of things, including future draft picks, international slots, allocation money or allocation order in addition to the more traditional option of another player.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
I guess my question is what value are future draft picks (unless they are first round picks)
The team has proven that it can fill out the squad with good players even without the draft. When you add in a future pipeline of HGP signings, finding room for everyone is going to be even more difficult.
As such, I just don’t know how much the team will value draft picks.
That being said, you are right that those are all valuable commodities, either for the Sounders themselves or for trade to other teams.
Value in this year's draft class
Think of it this way. Duran and Sodade have a respectable chance of making the team. Banton and Rose also could make the roster. Rose is the result of trading the rights to a 2nd round pick who didn’t make the squad. Ochoa is also the equivalent of the team’s 3rd round pick.
That’s not shabby value. Are there other options than the draft? Yep. But contrary to the opinion of the NYRBs, it actually does have value, even for a team like the Sounders.
Yes, having HGPs will muddy the mix. But every option gives the Sounders competition. Who knows where they will find a gem. More options equals more gems.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 4:12 PM PST up reply actions
Maximizing options on every front, maintaining the competitive advantage
This will hopefully continue to be the MO of the FO. Continue to establish in known markets: S America, Central American/Caribbean, Europe. Expand with East African connections, HGP, academies, PDL. Use the value of quality scouting and player evaluation to gain advantages in drafts and player discovery signings. Trade what excess value we have gained for additional Allocation money, etc.
Using every tool, every rule to maintain and grow.
When Sigi was being interviewed by Matt G the day before the draft Sigi said, he wished the SuperDraft Combine was shorter. He and Chris H confirmed their list after the first day and noted that other teams began to see what they were seeing by the end of the fourth day. Some of this is bragging, but some of this is just solid scouting and an eye for what pieces are needed to continue to build a winning organization.
I couldn't agree more
In a salary cap league you have to maximize your options and capitalize on every opportunity no matter how small. The NYRBs don’t bother. Until they do, they’ll never be in the league’s elite.
Beck's making $7.5 million a year?
3x our current estimated base salary. Jeebus.
and 75x the average MLS salary
One of the key things to remember is that the MLS significantly impacts locker room dynamics. The average EPL player salary is the entire roster salary for an MLS team after cap adjustments. If a team carries three senior DPs, then the required other 15 players split 1.6 million. This can create serious team dynamic headaches. The Sounders have a different approach than LA and I am grateful. I think their approach is much healthier and more likely to produce a team that reloads each season rather than ebbs and wanes.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Big difference between 75x and 5x the average salary of your team mates.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 18, 2012 7:34 PM PST up reply actions
It's hard enough working with a guy who can afford faster cars and a nicer house
Imagine having to work with someone who can buy you and your buddies a couple of times over and still put gas in his mega-yacht
Also 3x the base salary of his whole team
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by Dave Clark on Jan 18, 2012 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Great article.
Quick question:
Would there be any bar to the Sounders buying a USL-Pro franchise? Maybe in Spokane, or something like that? Even in Seattle. If Sounders fans knew that these players were perhaps future MLS Sounders, I bet they would be well attended.
This way, they could sign players to their USL team that needed development, actually pay them, and keep them for later. So, at the end of a camp like this, they say: “hey, you are good, we like your potential, sign for our USL team, in the future we could call you up to the MLS.” The “call up” would technically be a transfer, and could only happen during a transfer window, etc., but this would still be a way to control their rights. If, during their contract, we were to lose interest in a prospect, we (the USL team) could sell them to another team.
I would research this myself, but Wikipedia is still blacked out.
There are nations that operate Reserve Teams in lower leagues
most notably Spain and Germany. Currently US Soccer isn’t set up in a manner that allows that. I’m a huge fan of this idea as it is the hybrid between the baseball and global soccer model.
But let’s not pretend that their attendance would be huge, it’s still lower division soccer.
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Attendance...
Agreed. I just meant that they would probably not have a problem achieving the USL average of attendance.
Maybe, someday
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In all seriousness, I agree with your premise
That MLS should work with the USSF and the Canadian equivalent to establish an official mechanism form MLS teams to field Reserve teams in a lower division.
In my mind, this would come with addititional off-cap roster spots for developmental players with less than 2-3 years with the club.
I don't think it would work with current rules
Aren’t USL players still subject to the Discovery system? For an MLS team to bring in a USL player they have to have a Discovery Claim on the player, and their claim has to beat another team’s (or the higher claim-owning team can pass if they don’t like the contract terms). I believe the claim list is fairly short, so you wouldn’t have enough slots to claim an entire team.
As well it wouldn’t work to play a reserve team in USL and stick to transfer windows. Roster sizes just wouldn’t allow for that.
Finally, the ownership model is completely different between MLS/USL, which could lead to impedance mismatch in unforeseen ways.
Don’t get me wrong—I think the idea has some appeal—I just think we’re a long way from that.
correct
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Jan 19, 2012 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
Part of the draw would be that we own the rights for the draft players for two years
So those players shouldn’t need Discovery claims. I believe we would also own the rights to any of our academy players as long as the player is still willing to play for the Sounders (also, obviously not the ones that are still eligible to play in the college system). So at least half of a team we would potentially not need claims for (if I’m assuming right).
Any additional players we bring in to fill the roster would need discovery claims, but those wouldn’t necessarily be players the Sounders might want long term, but just guys to make up a team. Since, under the current rules, it couldn’t be an official reserve team playing in a lower division.
My point that the rules would need to be changed
And that it is an avenue I’d like to see explored
Flaco and Zakuani
I’m pretty certain that it is going to come down to finding ways to have both Zakuani and Flaco in the lineup, and to do so hardly requires re-inventing the wheel. They play the same nominal position, but very different roles. I think it is going to come down to Flaco being far more of a central player than he has been so far
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Jan 18, 2012 10:20 PM PST reply actions
Who makes the final roster comes doewn to how Flaco and Zakuani are used?
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roles, not necessarily positions
I think are a better way of looking at roster breakdowns and depth and who will make it and who won’t. I wrote about this in December but the 4 or 5 players that make up “the midfield” are really more about traits and styles than relative positions. Looking at it this way, on a “3-deep” chart there is a spot open behind Neagle and Zakuani (runner) and another behind Evans and Flaco (passer). What it seems we don’t have is anyone to deputize Rosales (playmaker/creator). I think this approach has downstream effects on roster construction.
...and you will hear us scream
by malcontentjake on Jan 18, 2012 11:08 PM PST up reply actions
How will the usage of Alvaro and Steve
change weather Sodade or Duran make the roster?
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Tactical Flexibility and Positional Depth
One of the biggest jobs the team has in training camp is to see how all the pieces fit together. All of the new players and prospects have a resume. Their place on the training camp roster is a reflection of the quality of their resume. But soccer is a team sport and these players have not played together as Sounders yet.
The question that now looms large is what combination of players and tactics will allow the team to carry the highest quality roster in terms of tactical flexibility and positional depth. Flaco and Rosales offer the team options due to their skills and flexibility. They can both play at the wings or centrally. The team has eight other wings on the training camp roster. The team also has a group of potential CM prospects in Seamon, Rose and Sanyang. The question in camp will be which combination of these attacking assets gives the team is greatest possible strength as a roster.
This is a different but related question to who will the team start in a given game. Once the roster is set the team will continue the process of refining its starting, bench and reserve tactical lineups. But for now, the real question is which players will be left to solve that riddle.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
what depth?
why are people saying we have a shit ton of depth? We have a lot of players. Many of which are completely unproven in MLS (draftees and the new guys).
just because you have a lot of people competing for the roster does not mean depth. I am concerned on our depth currently relying on completely MLS-green players.
Thank you for reminding everybody what was written earlier this week
Trialists and draftees are not better just because they are new. International brought in for the league minimum are unlikely to be better than players who left and made more than the minimum.
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Because shiny new players not named "Jaqua" or "Noonan" are fun!!
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Valid point
Many of these players are prospects. Until they prove their worth in the MLS and in the Sounders’ scheme, this discussion is speculation.
But their is a basis for the speculation. The Sounders FO has a fairly strong track record of identifying talent. Looking at the players that have been added, it appears that there is overall raising of the bar.
There is also more balance on the team in terms of how the overall skills are distributed throughout the roster. The players competing for the various roster spots appear to have a distribution of skills where the Sounders will be able to rely on players playing at their natural position deeper into the roster.
As someone mentioned earlier, the team still needs to mesh as a unit. There will be a new defensive scheme and there are two new starters at GK and RB. Whether this works out remains to be seen.
We are fans on the eve of camp. There is going to naturally be a tendency to view the prospects of 2012 through rose colored eyeballs. But that hope is part of the joy of being a fan on a snowy day with the dream of the coming season laid out in all its glory ahead of us.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
Well...
We’ve got OBW hopefully coming back at some point this season to add to…
Ochoa, Montero and Fucito up-top.
We’ve got Zakuani hopefully coming back to add to…
Neagle, Evans, Fernandez, Alonso, Carrasco and Rosales at the mid-field
We’ve got Burch and Gonzalez at LB, Ianni, Parke and Hurtado at CB and Johannsen at RB.
Apparently the only place we don’t have a guy that started somewhere last year is a backup RB. Everywhere else we’ll have a guy on the bench that could have a good shot starting on any other team.
That type of flexibility is pretty exciting and means we can focus on keeping the best youngsters without worrying about throwing them into meaningful games right away.
How many MLS starting quality players do we have right now?
I’d argue that we have as many or more MLS-starter quality guys than any other team in the league:
4 Fwd – Montero, Fucito, Ochoa, OBW (caveats apply)
4 1/2 Wing – Rosales, Flaco, Zakuani (caveats apply) Neagle, Sivebaek (maybe)
2 1/2 CM – Evans, Alonso Carrasco (maybe)
3 fullbacks – Johannson, Gonzo, Burch (maybe)
3 1/2 CB – JKH Parke Ianni Scott (maybe)
1 GK
So that’s 14 plus 2 returning injuries plus 4 maybes at MLS starting quality. We’re looking at upto 20 guys with starting quality on the roster on day 1. That to me is depth in this league. The other 10 positions will probably see limited minutes.
by PhootieD on Jan 19, 2012 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with your point
But disagree that many of the guys you list are starting quality yet. Burch was a starter on one of the worst defensive teams in league (DCU). Even then he was called out as the weakest link. He’s fine as a reserve, but doesn’t quite make the cut as a starting caliber guy.
Ochoa and Carrasco are not quite there yet. I think they could be, but probably need more games to really be considered starting quality. Scott is only a MLS quality starter when he’s man-marking Brek Shea into oblivion. However, all three are better than average depth IMHO.
other teams
I’d be curious as to how a similar analysis would break down for the other top teams in the league such as RSL, LAG, FCD, SKC (I can’t bring myself to put the Dynamo in my top tier). Who has the deepest quality and how deep does it go?
Really good question
I think RSL is going to be a deep team again this year. LAG tend to have some good veterans in some spots, but holes in other spots. FCD is losing some good players this years.
So, RSL probably the next deepest team in the league. I figure they maybe have 14 players are MLS starting quality and most of them are in the midfield:
GK: Rimando
D: Beltran, Borchers, Olave, Schuler, Wingert
M: Alvarez, Beckerman, Gil, Grabavoy, Johnson, Morales,
F: Espindoza, Saborio,
Leo should be locked on a roster spot, but . . .
. . . I wonder about playing time at LB. He still lost his starting job at the start of last season and is the only returning projected starter who wasn’t protected in the expansion draft. You’d assume the FO wants some updgrade, as they “remake” the defense. Competition at this spot should be interesting, and may be more about how much starting time Leo holds on to, than anything else. He had a nice finish to last year, but I’ve got to think the team is looking for their future at this spot — hopefully Tetteh steps up, Burch is reinvigorated by a change of scenery, or Alverado ends up as the dark horse surprise.
Have to say, I’m a little surprised Leo isn’t facing a little more competition than what sounds like a borderline MLS vet, an untested GA reserve with no starting experience, and a young Honduran trialist. Which one of these guys has the most upside to take starts from Leo? Tetteh?
Big fan of Leo – don’t get me wrong. Just feel like this could be a transition year at LB, though not sure who they can transition to, among the current choices.
Gonzalez and Wahl shared playing time pretty darn close to evenly
All competitions:
Gonzalez, 26 matches, 23 starts, 2088 minutes
Wahl, 26 matches, 25 starts, 2259 minutes
Wahl did play much more in the MLS regular season though. He actually only had three matches (all of them starts) in other competitions.
As for finding competition in the LB spot, it is the toughest position to find talent.
Thanks for the stats
I didn’t realize it was that close. My recollection is that we didn’t see much of him the first third of the season (which still says something about how Sigi felt coming out of camp, right?), but i recall now we saw a lot more of Leo once CCL started.
Maybe Leo pulls the laboring oar this year while we get a younger player some experience in the rotation.
A couple more things
The Sounders are changing their style of play out of the back. I’m hopeful this is more tailored to Leo’s strengths. My biggest concern with Leo last year was that he really looked like he lost a step. My favorite Leo moment last year was the game in San Jose. He got so far in Wondo’s head, I kept hearing Chekov talking about having an alien larvae put in his skull.
The second issue is that the MLS roster rules require some creative compromises. Leo and the other LBs probably classify as one of this year’s compromises.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 19, 2012 11:19 PM PST up reply actions

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