In Defense of the Personal Pronoun
by s0merand0mdude on Jan 29, 2012 5:53 PM PST
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PrintAs it usually does, watching the Pro Bowl is giving me a stroke. To remedy this, I will attempt to do my AP Language and Composition teacher proud with a FanPost.
Recently in my browsing of the web for soccer-related videos, I came across a clip from a British comedy show poking fun at the personal attachment "football" fans have to the teams they follow. As sports fans, we have a tendency to use the personal pronoun "we" when referring to the things our favorite teams have done. I've been criticized by my extremely sheltered younger cousin for using "we" when talking about past accomplishments of the Mariners (eg We won 116 games in 2001) but using "they" when referring to upcoming games (eg They're playing again tomorrow). It's a hard point to rebut, usually one I answer by saying "I feel a strong connection to the team," but there's a lot behind both the argument and the counter-argument.
Using the pronoun "we" to refer to our team's accomplishments is a sign of our personal connection to the Sounders. As Dave's signature states, "I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder." It's something the authors here (and I myself) believe honestly and thoroughly, that we the fans are indeed part of the team. Sometimes, it's hard for non-soccer people to understand, so I will lay it out for them simply in this FanPost.
For context, give two and a half minutes of your time to this YouTube clip:
(SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Reading the comment section may cause your brain to regress in intelligence)
In addition to poking fun at fair-weather fans (an enjoyable past-time for all), Ray Mitchell (the glasses-wearing non-football fan) criticizes Colin Webb's use of "we" when referring to Liverpool, saying "We? WE?! You weren't on the pitch!" Maybe not, but let's think about professional sports for a moment. The money used to pay for players and coaches in the soccer world comes from the owners. The owners usually are fairly rich and can afford to pay quite a bit of money to sustain the team, but no owner will want to spend money without getting a return on his/her investment. Where does the owner get this return? The fans. Through ticket sales, merchandise, and advertising dollars, soccer teams make a lot of money from their fans. In turn, the players and coaches are making the fans' money. Hence, the fans are an integral part of the team, and deserve to use "we" when referring to it.
Still, Ray Mitchell points out that the same argument could be made for referring to characters in movies we like as "we". While I would like to just outright dismiss the argument here because nobody ever actually refers to movie characters as "we", I have to address it. The reason it's different is mostly because movies aren't real. The characters aren't competing against other "teams". There is no chance that those other teams will win. Also, the characters are really actors. Sports are real competitions, competitions with winners and losers. They invoke a much more personal connection than movies. It is that personal connection that leads to the personal pronoun when referring to the team.
Sports are a unique beast in our world, a business that seems pointless to those on the outside looking in, and absolutely essential to those of us on the inside looking out. If you're not raised with them in your life, they can seem pointless and stupid. However, they fulfill a basic need for a lot of us, and they give us reason to be excited. Maybe that's superfluous, but I believe in sports. I am a Sounder.
FanPosts only represent the opinions of the poster, not of Sounder at Heart.
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fans are an integral part of Target stores too
But I have not heard anyone say ‘we’ when refering to their local Target store.
Target stores are real, unlike characters in a movie.
Target stores compete against other chains like Fred Meyers.
by lysander on Jan 30, 2012 7:21 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but I'm not sure anyone feels a deep personal connection to Target.
If I was trying to find a counter example it would probably be more like a local bar or coffee shop. And really, customers are an integral part of everything. My response would be that sports are weird in the sense that crowd noise is something thought to contribute to the team.
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Jan 30, 2012 7:31 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I know from personal experience
that regular customers refer to a coffee shop as “we” “us” “mine” as if they own it or work there.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart | Follow Dave on Twitter @bedirthan
My point was that Target fit pretty much all the criteria you were using
But yes people do not have a deep personal connection to Target. I actually agree that we is a good pronoun. I just think most of your reasons for it are not really reasons at all… hence the Target comparison.
Maybe we should go down the "one" road instead
It is Royal Brougham, after all.
Nor should we
Even if we use the term ‘we’ in refence to Target (or the Sounders).
As much as we might like to feel a part of the club, we are not getting the profits and thus should not be asked to pay capital into either business. And even more so others who might live in the area but do not feel a part of the business even more so should not be asked to shoulder the burden of capital.
Should is beside the point
We did pay to build the stadium and I can’t fault anyone for using personal pronouns when referring to a team based in the stadium that they paid for.
And besides, do you know why fans feel like part of the club? Because that’s exactly what the team wants. Do you think that any of the owners feel particularly at odds with fans who are so attached to the product that they feel like part of the team, or do you think they’re happy to have such enthusiastic fans?
I don’t get the point of telling people whether they should or shouldn’t feel like part of anything. Maybe it’s interesting to analyze why someone feels like part of a group, but telling other people which groups they ought to feel a part of seems more than a little self-important to me.
Again I agree
People can and should use personal pronouns all they want. I am just stating another reason I do not think people do attach the personal pronouns to teams. They do because they like the team, not because they helped pay for the stadium. As proof see how many non sounder/soccer fans use the term ‘we’ who are paying for the stadium nontheless.
the sociology term is "in-group"
n. Any group or category to which people feel they belong either intrinsically or by achievement.
English teachers and others make statements that are contradicted in other fields of study. Of course, Sounder fans, or LFC fans are a collective we. I take pride in the try-out for the Sounders I participated in back on November 15, 2008, but I didn’t need to try-out for them to be a member and eventual season ticket holder for the Sounders.
There are movies that have followings and in-groups, also. I think the main difference is not so much an opponent as simply a question of time. For example, compare the total number of Timber fans to a summer blockbuster that then develops a cult following that requires conventions, meet-ups, costumes, fan created sequels, etc. Those Trekkies, or Star Wars fan boys are grouped in a “we” beyond the original intent of the movie maker.
Some blockbuster “sleepers” develop cult followings. Plan 9 from Outer Space, Night of the Living Dead, Rocky Horror, and Big Lebowski to name a small handful.
And the meaning of that group and the strength of that bond is nurtured through discussion, participation and action. Which sounds a bit like this blog…
Browncoat Sounder
And its OK if they don’t understand.
by Abbott Smith on Jan 30, 2012 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I have to admit it,
I generally laugh (on the inside) when I hear some overweight coach potato or tailgater telling me that “We did it” talking about their (American) football team accomplishments. However, I do refer to the Sounders in this way and find it to be different. I feel that Sounders fans are often much more connected to the team than even the most hardcore fan of other sports.
Taking a look at supporters gorups, we are organized, we drive the energy with things like marches to the match. We often directly interact with players at social events outside of the stadium. As James Riley put it at the ECS end of year party. “We’re just f***ing regular guys who get paid to play a game that we love”.
This connection is helped even more in MLS in part due to the salaries. These players aren’t making a million dollars a year, and as they often don’t develop those “better than you” attitudes that are so prevalent in other professional sports in the US. They are just working stiffs that happen to play soccer.
In Europe, players make the money we are used to seeing in professional sports, but a cultural difference prevents the reverence that American fans tend to have towards players. They are just human beings and not gods. Hopefully that culture is also maintained in US Soccer as the salaries slowly increase.
Sounders 'til I die
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