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Seattle's "Other" Forward

Seattle Sounders FC player Christian Sivebaek dribbles the ball during a training game against the Columbus Crew on February 15, 2012 at IMG Academy in Bradenton, FL (photo courtesy Seattle Sounders FC)

Since the loss of Blaise Nkufo, the Seattle Sounders are unsettled in their choice for the primary forward partner with Fredy Montero. By the end of 2011, the choice was a tactical decision between speed and size in Mike Fucito and Sammy Ochoa respectively. With O'Brian White's status still unknown, the search for Montero's partner is continuing and expanding.

In the Sounders win over the Columbus Crew, the following players played at forward - Montero, Fucito, David Estrada, Christian Sivebaek and Babayele Sodade. Ochoa is still mentioned in the mix as well. Each offers different combinations of size, speed, strength, endurance and soccer skills. Asked about what he's looking for in the "other" forward, Sigi Schmid said it was not about a "target" man, but how the player helps get Montero space to operate.

We’re looking for a forward who’s going to allow us to stretch the defense and so forth. I think there’s times where Mike [Fucito] has done that. I think we have enough talent that is here. It’s just a matter of seeing who’s playing well and who’s on top of their game.

Sivebaek's opportunity was not part of the original design, as he recovered more quickly than expected from an ankle injury, but it did allow Sigi to try him in a new role.

Star-divide

... so let's take a look at him at center forward and see how he does there. I also wanted to see eventually how he played on the left hand side and see what options there are. He played well the other day and played well again today in his 25 minutes. So at the end of the day that was a situation where this is a guy we need to get out on the field ...

Of the forward mix, Sivebaek joins Cato, Estrada and Fucito as a speedster. While he might not have the strength of Ochoa or Fucito, he does have height that few in the offense offer. He also has passing and dribbling skills in his tool chest. Sigi credited Cordell Cato's goal to Sivebaek's ball skills.

Sivebaek really made that goal for Cordell [Cato] with a good move, a little scoop pass and Cordell got in there.

If you're the type of fan that wants a set First XI, it may be time to realize that the number of options just at the "other" forward position means that a set lineup is highly unlikely.

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3 or 4 second forwards...

I don’t disagree with a single letter of this post. But, the throwball cliche machine that lives deep in the back of my lizard brain defaults to “if you have two starting QBs, you really have none”. The reason we have “so many options” is because we have no true candidate for the job. I have this sinking feeling that “tactical decisions” are us making lemonade from lemons.

I am also a pessimist of the highest order…

Section 120, Row G, Seat 13

by _zorbthegeek on Feb 16, 2012 6:25 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

I think Sigi has shown that he likes to have multiple options at virtually every position on the field.

I get the impression that Sigi’s style is slightly more towards the “tactical” coaching side (see: Mourinho) than the “personnel” side (see: Redknapp). He’s always shown a desire to have the roster flexibility to play different match ups around the field, depending on the opponent. This was made most obvious in the run of games against Dallas last year when he used Zach Scott to effectively neutralize Brek Shea. Having different options at forward is what Sigi wants. It allows him to adjust to the different defenses that the team sees.

Look at how many players rotated in and out of the starting lineup last year. Look at how many players scored goals. I would argue that in this league, with this schedule, having one “starter” caliber player backed up by a couple “backup” caliber players is more of a weakness than a strength.

by moyerLIVES on Feb 16, 2012 7:07 AM PST up reply actions  

There's definitely some truth to this

That said, I don’t think we have bad options, but it’s hardly a great sign if there’s no clear option.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 16, 2012 8:36 AM PST up reply actions  

The nature of a 45+ game season played in 30ish weeks means that there isn't really a "first XI"

Every player won’t be able to play ever game. So you really need more, at least close to, starting caliber players. I really think any one of them could do a fine enough job starting, and that’s what we need.

I mean look at FC Dallas last year Hyndeman didn’t change his team much and Brek Shea played until he could hardly play anymore.

Our situation is a little bit of a different beast than any other sport really.

by majora999 on Feb 16, 2012 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly

Depth is great, this isn’t football where good teams have 1 QB for 16 games.

Still though, I have to agree, I was most concerned about our options at Forward this off season, and I’m still concerned. I really like Fucito, and I hope he can keep all his limbs intact throughout the season, he gets beat up a lot, and the other players that are challenging him for minutes is a good thing.

by Thalas on Feb 16, 2012 9:09 AM PST up reply actions  

This is a long way off, but...

where a First XI is important is the playoffs. Having a top-rate in-form forward up top can be the difference between a first round exit and a MLS Cup championship. Depth is great for congested schedules (see: NBA), but once the playoffs come around, you can only put 11 out there at a time.

Having said that, I think that top-rate forward is already on our team, and will be rooting for at least one of these guys to develop into a player of that quality.

by seoultrain on Feb 16, 2012 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

In your analogy...

the QB would be..well…a passer. We have stability there with our midfield and Montero as a withdrawn-ish striker. That 2nd forward position for us is really about stretching defenses, making room for Montero, and cleaning up. Doing this by committee based on opposing teams is ok with me. In a perfect world, we’d have a player who was the best speed guy, the best size guy, and the best finisher all in one package, thus making the decision for us…but the MLS is far from a perfect world. What we have is very serviceable.

by exSlacker on Feb 16, 2012 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

i know what you mean but...

it’s not quite the same as not knowing who your QB is… Maybe more like 2nd WR.

Most of the XI is set, and a team with more interchangeable parts is more resilient when the inevitable injuries and accumulations happen…

by deflater mouse on Feb 16, 2012 7:06 AM PST reply actions  

I'd say it's more like not knowing who the running back is

and you have a suitable scat back, power back, hybrid back and a guy making a position change

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart | Follow Dave on Twitter @bedirthan

by Dave Clark on Feb 16, 2012 7:45 AM PST up reply actions  

The quarterback runs the offense in throwball

The QB is rare among sports in his role of running the offense and acting as a liaison between the head coach/offensive coordinator and the rest of the team. He knows the plays and calls them (often on the fly in the face of different deffensive looks). Stability is paramount for things running smoothly throught the season. He’s a team captain (and needs to excel at it) by default.

Soccer is a much more fluid game where every player has a role in running and coordinating the offense. Also, the coach has a much smaller role once the game starts and therefore there is no need for a liaison between the coaching staff and players. There are no timeouts or headsets for plays to be called. Ideally there is a captain (or set of veterans) on the field regularly.

by Dizzo on Feb 16, 2012 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

that's a good point

Likening this to more of running back-by-committee makes more sense.

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 16, 2012 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

More like the Four Horsemen.

Depth can’t hurt. The Sounders are bringing back everyone from the leagues highest scoring offense last season.

by DaveValleDrinkNight on Feb 16, 2012 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Ready for the Apocalypse

(restraining myself from going over the top and folding in any Tebow references)

by seabryan on Feb 16, 2012 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

When Sigi was on with Gas a few days ago...

he mentioned that some teams will play a high backline against us in order to condense the field, making it harder for us to keep possession. Therefor we will need to play more direct sometimes and get behind the defense. This is where Fucito, Sivebaek, and maybe even Cato will see time at forward. So the other teams defensive tactics (high line or not) will dictate the pairing option with Freddy.

by cghanson on Feb 16, 2012 7:58 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

I'm excited about Sivebaek

I don’t know where exactly, but I don’t think he’s going to end this season as an option off the bench.

by sammysounder on Feb 16, 2012 8:04 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Look how Sigi covered it last year

Montero, Fucito, Ochoa later, plus Jacqnoonvesque. Maybe others I forgot. With the brutal schedule this year – a second CCL tourney added to what we covered last year – I certainly expect Sigi wants similar depth.

A lot of this discussion is about who might be the primary #2, but it kind of looks like another year of management by committee. Maybe one of these guys will come out of the pack and get Nkufo-level minutes. We’ll see. So far, it sounds like Fucito is challenging the rest to take the primary #2 role from him – and aside from size advantage, no one else has made a case yet. You’d assume one of the bigger guys ultimately gets Jacqua’s #3 minutes.

by seabryan on Feb 16, 2012 10:18 AM PST reply actions  

Mauro was up top as well

while Montero was out. Maybe even a game or two with Montero in, while Sigi was still figuring out how best to use Mauro.

by agtk on Feb 16, 2012 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Right - good point

And it reminds me that the mix at forward will be impacted by who gets the #2-3 time at RW behind Mauro. There isn’t much discussion of RW, but we’ve still got a 31yr old whose knee got hammered last year. He needs a backup who can make a similar contribution to what Neagle did at LW last year, IMHO. Gotta protect Mauro and manage his minutes. If Sivebaek gets that job, he’s less in the mix at forward.

by seabryan on Feb 16, 2012 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Goalscorer

The best way to create space up front is not by being tall or fast or strong, it’s by being a scoring threat.
Teams don’t need to worry that much about marking Jaqua, Noonan, Fucito etc etc because their goalscoring rates are low. If you can put in a player who’s a natural goalscorer then teams will be forced to mark or even double team that player, freeing up space for everyone else.
Jaqua was big and strong (as was Nkufo) but not enogh of a scoring threat to divert attention. Fucito is fast but just doesn’t score enough (hopefully will improve with time) to be a major worry. We need a natural goalscorer. Even our best forward (Montero) is not really a natural goalscorer but prers to play behind the forwards. We need a Robbie Keane type player. maybe someone like Ochoa or OBW could do that for us but I think we can do better.
I would gladly trade 2 players are reduce our depth to get a proven player like this and give ourselves the chance to score lots of goals in the truly big games.

by Gonna Win The League on Feb 16, 2012 12:21 PM PST reply actions  

"Natural Goalscorer"

I agree with every part of this post except the statement that Montero isn’t a natural goal scorer.

And I totally agree we need a Robbie Keane. I was disgusted in our inability to pick up talent of that caliber in last summer’s transfer window, and I remain disappointed that Ochoa, Fucito, and OBW are our options going into this season. I know we’ve effectively spent our last DP spot and remaining salary cap on re-signing Rosales (a player who makes the entire team more effective, without a doubt), but I keep thinking, “If LA can do it, why can’t we?”.

This off-season we needed to:

1. Sign a goalkeeper.
2. Re-sign Rosales.
3. Make strategic upgrades at fullback on both sides.
4. Sign a <Keane, Drogba, Prince, Ching, …>. You get the mold I’m thinking of. Someone who plays up top and has a killer nose for goal. Someone who’s always a threat to score and demands the attention of the defense.

We didn’t do number four, and I feel like now we’re in a position where the best we can offer Montero as a partner is one of several utility players.

My hope is that Ochoa can grow into that spot, but that’s not showing in the (admittedly very early) pre-season. Fucito is fast and has an unbelievable work rate, and I expect more of his shots to start dropping in MLS play, but it’s not like he’s going to suddenly get Montero’s touch on the ball around the goal.

I’m amazed at the depth of the team Sigi and co have managed to build within the constraints of the MLS system. We’re built to compete more effectively in multiple tournaments than any other team, and we’re building for the future. But ultimately, particularly in the playoffs, it comes down to the best 11 you can put on the field. We didn’t have the best 11 last year, and with this gap up top, I’m afraid we won’t this year either.

by silver00 on Feb 16, 2012 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Keane plays a similar role to Montero, so that wouldn't solve many problems.

Prince chose not to come to Seattle. Ching isn’t good. Drogba is likely going to Marseille if he leaves Chelsea.

It’s just not as easy as people make it out to be, especially considering that we almost certainly wouldn’t be able to do numbers 1, 2 and 3 had we done number 4.

by Aaron Campeau on Feb 16, 2012 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Agree and disagree

I’ve never implied that making a successful transaction for a player of this style and caliber would be anything like easy (forgive me if I came across as blasé). I know it’s super difficult. Made even more so by the philosophy of our FO to not pickup over the hill EPL retirees (I totally agree). And the examples I gave were just that… “examples”. I was merely trying to illustrate the style of player I would like to see in the role.

And as I alluded to in my first post, I agree that signing Rosales all but ruled out the ability to add another player of this caliber. Although I believe signing a goalkeeper and substituting fullbacks were pretty close to non-impactful from a salary cap perspective.

by silver00 on Feb 16, 2012 9:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Comparing Fucito's goalscoring rate (what is that?) to Jaqua and Noonan is laughable

Truly big games where the Sounders failed to score last year can be counted using nostrils, and you’d have one left over.

I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart | Follow Dave on Twitter @bedirthan

by Dave Clark on Feb 17, 2012 8:28 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I've never understood

Why people want a clear starter for 2nd forward. I think it can depend on situations. Right now I like Fucito, but Ochoa had an outrageous pp90 in his limited minutes. Not the greatest match for him in Salt Lake, but no one had a great one. Sivebaeck (I’ll learn to spell eventually) could see some time up there too. That’s not a bad rotation, let alone having the Rosales option and the Neagle option. Honestly Forward is the position I’m least worried about.

How’s that left back situation coming?

by python6114 on Feb 16, 2012 6:35 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

Center midfielder not named Osvaldo

Can somebody fill me in on the top options at attacking center mid? Who has been getting the most high quality minutes there?

by Sounder in VA on Feb 16, 2012 6:45 PM PST reply actions  

The starter will almost certainly be Brad Evans

But there are reasons to think that Alvaro will get time there too

Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.

by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 16, 2012 7:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Evans

The debate rages, but I get so sick of seeing Brad make poor passes and fail to finish. There’s also a ton to like about him, but I hope to see El Flaco get a good long look in the middle. Maybe he’s not the right fit, but I’d sure like to find out.

by silver00 on Feb 16, 2012 9:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Perhaps its not surprising that the 2nd forward is an afterthought this year

Our offense last year came from the havoc that the midfield wrought moving forward. Sigi has expressly stated that we are going to get the back more involved in attack—and that is exactly where the first goal v Crew came from, with Johansson pushed way forward. With that strategy, I am not sure the second forward will play as big of a role. That said, I do like the speed option this year we have up front. Cato, Fuchicharito, and Sivebaek can all blaze and keep a defense on their heels. That makes more sense than a slower TF in our current setup.

by Brougham Hooligan on Feb 16, 2012 7:58 PM PST reply actions  

This is what has kept me from opening my mouth so far on this topic...

Scored the most goals in MLS last season? These guys.

And we’re complaining about a higher producing forward?

Still, I can’t help but feel there’s a gap there.

by silver00 on Feb 16, 2012 9:34 PM PST up reply actions  

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