Fitness Concerns Over Sammy Ochoa, O'Brian White Motivated Sounders To Make Trade
With each passing day, it seems we learn a little more about the Eddie Johnson trade. On Monday, Seattle Sounders coach Sigi Schmid seemed to indicate that health and fitness concerns with Sammy Ochoa and O'Brian White were motivating factors behind the deal.
"I think certainly if O’Brian White wasn’t injured and hadn’t gone through what he went through last year, maybe we’re not talking about this trade," Schmid said during a teleconference. "But that wasn’t the situation, that wasn’t where we were at, and we have a concern certainly as to when O’Brian is going to be able to play again or come back. That’s something that we’re still in the final stages of trying to draw some conclusions on.
"Sammy Ochoa is a player that I thought came on very well for us at the end of last year and can still do some good things. But he’s a player that needs to continue to work and work on the physical side of his game as well. So he’s probably left the door open a little bit, per se, and that’s the way it is in professional sports and we’ve got to make sure that we’ve got our bases covered and we’ve got possibilities. I think O’Brian being out injured and Sammy maybe not being quite as sharp as we had hoped at this point, yeah, had an impact on us a little bit. "
There has long been speculation that White's condition could be serious enough to keep him off the field forever and that Ochoa was one of the players Schmid was talking about when he said spoke of fitness concerns earlier in camp. White still hasn't been able to train with the team and it's starting to look more and more likely that he may not even be close enough to justify a spot on the injury list. In the case of Ochoa, it at least brings up the issue of whether or not he'll be able to start on March 7.
If Ochoa isn't deemed worth of starting against Santos Laguna, the next players in line would seem to be David Estrada and Christian Sivebaek. Both players have been among the bright spots during training camp and although neither has much pro experience at forward, they have been getting time there recently.
Either Sivebaek or Estrada could form an interesting partnership with Montero. Sivebaek is the kind of big body that Schmid has shown a clear preference for, but his lack of time at forward suggests he'd be far more comfortable running at defenders than having his back to them. Estrada, who stands just 5-foot-8, enjoyed some of his best collegiate success at forward. Like Montero, he would probably be more comfortable as a withdrawn forward, but he has the kind of speed and motor that could play well in more of a Fucito-esque role.
Whether or not they see time forward, it seems clear that their emergence -- as well as that of Cordell Cato -- helped make Mike Fucito and Lamar Neagle more expendable.
"David Estrada now has an opportunity to maybe get more minutes," Schmid said. "A guy like Sivebaek obviously can get some minutes out there wide, as well. Cordell Cato is somebody who’s going to come along. We’re confident in his abilities. It’s a different set of names, but there’s still some people who can play there."
Left unsaid by Schmid, or really anyone else, is that at least part of the reasoning behind this trade seems to be a certain lack of faith in Mike Fucito being the longterm answer as Montero's partner. While Fucito's efforts could never be questioned, it is worth noting that a majority of his production came when he was playing in more of a withdrawn position. Even if we include his non-MLS goals, just five of his 11 career goals came with Montero on the pitch.
Schmid did have praise for both Fucito and Neagle, though.
"I think it’s a tremendous tribute to Lamar [Neagle] and to Mike Fucito," Schmid said. "One was basically an undrafted player and the other was a player that got picked fairly low, and both those guys have made themselves valuable commodities in this league. They’ve worked very hard and they grew and developed in the system in Seattle, and that was good. Unfortunately, to get something you have to give something up and that means now the door’s open for some other people."
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Sigi's use of "per se"
“Per se” does not mean “so to speak,” nor does it signal that the words previously used are an analogy of any type. It means “by itself.” It’s typically used in the negative, for instance: “It’s not that Ochoa is unfit, per se, but he opened the door a bit,” would be correct.
You hear it a lot in a legal sense, like “negligence per se,” which means the act has been defined to be negligent by itself without needing to prove additional factors such as intent. Acts like a builder failing to meet building codes and the building subsequently falling down would be negligence per se.
Pet peeve rant over,
- Ben.
by benihana on Feb 20, 2012 2:31 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
I have tried
to not be critical of Sigi’s grammar, especially in transcripts of interviews. You’d go mad.
by Adam Waltering on Feb 20, 2012 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
This is a vocabulary issue
Pet peeve rant over.
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Feb 20, 2012 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
Does vocabulary
not fall under the umbrella of grammar?
by Adam Waltering on Feb 20, 2012 3:35 PM PST up reply actions
Put frankly, no.
Grammar is how words are put together, vocabulary is the definition of words. Saying Sigi misuses “per se” because he thinks it means something besides what it actually means is a vocabulary issue.
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Feb 20, 2012 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
now if he put it in the wrong place in a sentence...
THAT would be an error in per se grammar.
by exSlacker on Feb 20, 2012 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
that's the type of language
up with which I will no longer put.
dammit. that’s syntax, ignore.
So you're saying
Sigi’s misuse of a word isn’t a grammatical error? As in, he “put together” words that didn’t belong together?
by Adam Waltering on Feb 20, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
It's not a grammatical error because he thought the word meant something else.
Just because a word is Latin doesn’t mean using it incorrectly is a grammatical error. I’ve heard that argument before.
I met a possum.
by s0merand0mdude on Feb 20, 2012 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
So,
if he knew exactly what it meant it would be a grammatical error?
by Adam Waltering on Feb 20, 2012 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
No, it would still just be an incorrect word selection
This a grammatically correct sentence in the form of article noun verb adverb: The boy ran quickly.
Same form, but with a nonsensical adverb: The boy ran deliciously.
Grammatically correct (it’s an adverb modifying a verb), but it’s not a word that makes sense in context. If I somehow, bizarrely thought that “deliciously” meant “quickly”, it would be an error in my mental dictionary, but not in my grammar.
Grammatically incorrect and nonsensical: The boy ran waffle.
Waffle is a noun, or a verb, but not an adverb, and can’t properly modify “ran”.
Famous example of a nonsensical, yet grammatically correct sentence: Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
by CarlosT on Feb 20, 2012 6:08 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
"The boy ran waffle"
I feel like we should make this a thing.
by Brian Floyd on Feb 21, 2012 12:05 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
A grown ass man ran waffle
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It's not that he ran waffle, per se
It’s HOW he ran waffle.
pretty much...yeah.
like our widespread misuse of “jealous” when we mean “envious”. The word is in the right place, modifies the right noun, but simply doesn’t carry the user’s intended meaning (although at this point it may well be considered acceptable in American English). BTW…this is an informal setting and I am, thus, exempt from any grammatical dissections and criticisms….so there.
Linguistics arguments
fun
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I want to diagram sentences while drinking
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To clarify, maybe....
Grammar is the rules of constructing sentences. You can construct perfectly grammatical sentences that are devoid of any semantic meaning. Think of The Jabberwocky. Perfectly grammatical, even though many of the words mean nothing.
This is the use of the term “grammatical” from a Linguistics perspective. In common usage, it is also used to refer to situations like this one, though. So if the other linguists here had hopped off their prescriptive high horses, and accepted that “grammatical” has meanings other than its technical one (much like “theory” in the sciences), we could have avoided this entirely.
But then we’d all be a little less knowledgeable.
by foolsgambit on Feb 20, 2012 6:14 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
Oh my God,
The season needs to start so we can have something to talk about
The return of THIERRY
by Kyle Ritter on Feb 20, 2012 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 12 recs
Guys, I come on here to get away from law school
The return of THIERRY
by Kyle Ritter on Feb 20, 2012 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I changed my major to get away from law school
by chrisperry1983 on Feb 20, 2012 8:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 8 recs
I'll spot Sigi "Per se"
Because he’s Sigi.
I’m more annoyed by Adrian’s continued use of “addition by subtraction” to mean that he needs to pay a cost to get a gain.
Addition by subtraction is merely the removal of something with negative net production, so you end up ahead only by removing a piece. Completely different than trading one piece for another.
Per Se could also be beyond his control
It maybe that Ochoa came into camp fit but suffered a few nagging injuries that prevented him from getting match fit. So it’s not his fault that he is not in shape but he’s still not in shape so we needed to add reinforcements. I’m not arguing that is what Sigi is saying but it’s another logical conclusion.
It's not demeaning to Fucito...
it’s just that he could be a very good replacement to Montero, maybe even better in the end… but who knows for sure?
Sounds like a cryptic way of saying what we've all feared
OBW’s career is probably over. But what I took away from Sigi’s comments was a roundabout way of saying, "we liked what Neagle and Fucito brought to the table but we’re confident our system can produce those types of players consistently."
All in all this off season was/is tough. We’ve lost lots of familiar faces but it was obvious to me that we needed upgrades at some positions in order to reach our highest team potential; with the exception of GK I think we’ve done that. I’m cautiously optimistic about Santos but if we’re starting Estrada/Sivebaek at forward it makes me a little leery.
@Emerald_Sounder
That's kind of how I see Neagle and Fucito
They are good players and I like them, but the Sounders should be able to find players to replace them. For all I know, Estrada can be as effective as Fucito at forward. Not being an absolute top-level league, like say MLB, each open roster spot in MLS seems to be an opportunity to surprise everyone. Maybe you’ll find a Rosales. Maybe a Neagle or Fucito will give you more value than you’d expect from the draft slot they were taken at. Maybe an Erik Friberg comes in as a solid contributor. And sure, maybe you’ll bring in a bust or an underachiever, but I think there’s a completely reasonable chance that the FO can find comparable talent for similar price over the next 2-3 years, maybe sooner, and in the short term we get to see what EJ brings to the table.
by ubelmann on Feb 21, 2012 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
OBW situation needs to be resolved asap
is it better for OBW to come and say he is over or is it better for him to keep us all in the dark and keep hoping at recovery. I am the kind of person that needs conclusions, clear demarcations on issues. I want it resolved…not lingering out there. At a certain point his situation is a hindrance to our team.
It's a hindrance
After March 1st. Right now there is no effect at all.
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I agree:
Although I would tend to doubt anything regarding his condition will likely improve between now and March 1. But yeah, no operative effect between now and then.
I'm sure all involved would like resolution...
Let’s not jump to conclusions. If they knew anything for sure, I’m sure a decision would be made. Don’t count him out yet!
Can we conclude that the trade is a short-term step back?
So, we took a risk on the Santos game. EJ not in starting shape, Ochoa behind, Sive & Estrada lacking starting experience. Maybe some of Sigi’s comments are meant to light a fire under Sammy.
i think all of the above
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 20, 2012 4:27 PM PST up reply actions
Whether it is a short-term step back...
will depend (in my book) on how much time EJ can provide and what he brings. If he brings that stepover and off-footed goal (which I really believe would have worked on many pro defenders) and gives us 30 mins in each game..who knows. A goal or assist in each game from him may make it look like a step forward when it is all said and done. He has real speed that could be very effective as a late sub. That goal was impressive…I KNOW it was just a college team…but it showed the 1v1 and the finishing skills that have been mentioned.
So maybe we're only talking about the difference between . . .
60min Fucito + 30min Ochoa vs 60min Ochoa + 30min EJ? I’ll take that risk. Banking on Rosales-Montero-Fernandez being the real difference makers.
I think that was my original contention
Although Sigi’s comments today make me wonder if we’ll even get 60 mins of Ochoa
Editor/writer at Sounder at Heart, MLS editor SB Nation. Follow me on Twitter. You'll Never Yacht Alone.
by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 20, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
Also remember
Sigi isn’t always forthcoming before big matches. We don’t want to give Santos an easier scouting report than they already have. Who knows, Johnson could be fit for 90 in the first leg and Sigi’s just pulling mind games with Santos? The more confusion publicly there is about who will be alongside Montero the less they have to prepare for. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No…
Makes me wonder
Playing two Primera teams, do we gain more from the training against their style, or does Santos gain more by talking to Atlante and Jaguares about what they saw from us?
your definition of step back is odd
since, it seems to me EJ / ochoa not scoring goals is somehow worse then fucito not scoring goals. I dont see how you can simply assume that had fucito stayed we were in any better shape. Judging by the lack of any offensive aptitude so far in the preseason by the first teamers (and fucito!) theres nothing other then peoples love for fucitos hustle that seems to warrant this assertion that it was a given that he is such an upgrade over the current squad
The team was very strong in the last 2/3 of the 2011 season
Fucito got majority of the starts. I’ll take the guy with the most experience playing in our offense when we were winning games last year, regardless of the number of goals he scored.
But as I noted in my later comment, we’re probably not talking about a huge difference between Fucito-Ochoa and Ochoa-EJ. If we beat Santos, our other big guns are going to have to get it done. Whoever is at 2nd forward needs to avoid screwing up, and any upside is pure gravy.
If the Sounders are down 1-0 at halftime vs. Laguna
I’d feel much better with EJ as an available sub than with Ochoa or Fucito.
It’ll be interesting to see how fit both Ochoa and Johnson can get themselves by March 7th. It’d be nice if Sigi was able to divide minutes based on skill, matchups, and scenarios rather than by who can keep running.
I don't know that Sigi is saying Ochoa is out of shape
Sammy said he did fairly well during the beep test during his 1v1 on the team’s website.
The “physical” part of his game could be more to do with playing physical, not necessarily in reference to his physical shape.
The “not being quite as sharp” could be in reference to his attacking prowess, again not necessarily in reference to his physical shape.
Sammy got shut down at Rio Tinto in the playoffs, that can’t happen again, everyone knows it, and if he can’t be more of a threat in the preseason chances he’s been given, let’s face it we haven’t been rolling until the most recent game, it’s obviously still a concern.
You can do well in the beep test...
without being in good shape for the demands of the MLS++ season….Just as you can finish a marathon without having trained beyond a half-marathon. You can push through the pain and go until you’re completely and totally spent. This is good in the sense that it shows mental toughness. It’s bad, however, because you can’t get up and do it again and again and again with only a day or two down each week. Clearly, Ochoa was doing fitness work while others were not in AZ. That pretty much says it all for me. Ochoa didn’t show up in the same kind of shape most of the other returning Sounders did. At least that’s what I’ve been reading in the staff’s comments and the articles here and elsewhere.
This is largely the same position that Flaco was in last spring, though, right?
Flaco came in mid-season in 2010, staff has concerns about fitness. Then he doesn’t go the distance in many games to start off 2011, with fitness concerns thrown in the list of reasons. Then by midseason 2011, the team isn’t referencing any concerns about his fitness. I think this just may be a longer term process than some expect it to be. Ochoa could be working perfectly hard, but for a guy his size, to get in absolute peak shape as a professional athlete takes both effort and time. I can’t say how hard Ochoa’s been working, but the fact that he’s behind schedule could just as well speak to the Sounders having an overly optimstic schedule as much as it speaks to the work that Sammy’s been putting in. As long as he keeps making progress, he’ll likely reach his goal. Obviously that’s not great news for CCL quarters, but this concern could potentially go away by midseason.
I think Fernandez's struggle to break the XI was more about buying in
I find it hard to believe that he wasn’t fit coming in. I think it had more to do with learning a new system, and maybe swallowing a little bit of pride and playing Sigi’s Game, and the once he bought in he was playing thing has been mentioned a few times.
I think that was definitely a part of it
But I think fitness may have played a role as well, though that may have been more about strength than stamina.
Ochoa arrived in AZ late due to the birth of his baby
He played in AZ for 45 minutes against Vancouver on 2/6 which was the first preseason game, a game in which no player saw more minutes than that as three XI’s played three periods.
He’s also had 60 minutes against Orlando City SC on 2/13 which was the second preseason game again as many as any other player saw and he had a goal, they rested him against Columbus which was the third game, and he saw 70 minutes against the U17’s which was the entire game while scoring a goal and assisting on another.
I think when you look at all of that combined, he’s fit. Again, I think Sigi stating that he needs to “work on the physical side of his game” is probably in reference to either getting physically stronger, or playing more physical, or both, not his physical fitness in terms of conditioning and being game ready, and that Sigi might be misunderstood here. If Ochoa isn’t a blazing forward, he needs to be a strong forward that doesn’t get swallowed up by big center backs a la RIo Tinto in the playoffs which I noted in my original post.
We could debate strength being part of fitness, but usually I see fitness meaning conditioning, one can be comparatively weak and be fit, one can be very strong but not fit.
you may have a point
I seem to recall reading that Ochoa came into camp lighter than last year.
"work on the physical side of his game"
. . . perhaps also Sigi’s lingering bad memory of Sammy’s encounter with the RSL defense.
Yeah, I stated that in my original comment and in my largest reply
Though I used Rio Tinto in the playoffs instead of RSL.
Still not sure why Fucito didn’t get the start that night, though he did play almost 30 minutes, he had such good games against them both home and away during the season, drawing a red card on Olave in one, and a PK from Russell in the other, and in the 2nd leg he won a PK against Beltran. Maybe they didn’t think he’d be able to start both games and wanted him to play at home, dunno, someone ask Sigi.
I feel so bad for White
He finally got out of that disaster in Toronto, and wasn’t a projected starter until opening night. Then, just as he started to gel with his teammates (I’ll never forget that miraculous header against Chicago) he gets this freak blood clot problem and may never play again. I think, with a full preseason and regular season, he could have been the difference between 1st and 2nd place for the Supporters Shield, and a longer run in the playoffs.
Agreed...
If it’s clear that he can’t play for most or all of the season, I hope we can find a way to do right by him without hurting the team and it’s chances. Maybe a U-23 coaching staff appointment … I’ll come out and say hi to him down here in T-town. Then if the Dr’s figure out a solution to his problem, he can attempt a comeback.
Ditto
I totally agree here. Both in the fact that the timing was terrible for him in that it prevented a breakout in his career, and also because it could have easily been the difference down the stretch.
I expect action on OBW before the March deadline. I don’t think the FO has any more tolerance for continued uncertainty than the fans do on this. I just hope whatever scenario plays out, does so in a way that allows the Sounders to take care of him in the best possible way, whether he makes it back to the field or not.
On that topic, I have absolutely no context on the team’s flexibility or intentions in a situation like this. If you’ve got a player that sustains a career-ending injury or condition related to his employment with the team, is he just kicked the curb? Is that governed by the team or the CBA? Dunno.
I would imagine that if the player agrees to "retire"
…that no rules violation would occur, nor would that preclude that player from drawing a paycheck from the club in a non-player capacity.
Exaclty what Kasey did/is doing
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by dano_seattle on Feb 20, 2012 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
Long term disability
Well, I found the CBA: http://www.mlsplayers.org/cba.html
Long term disability is called out in the agreement as well as worker’s comp, so hopefully that would help cover something like this.
it may be the same...
But that’s actually the old CBA.
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by Jeremiah Oshan on Feb 20, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
So, what Sigi is saying is that if O'Brian White was healthy, they'd have both Neagle and Fucito?
Right?
Seattle Sounders FC today acquired forward O’Brian White from the Vancouver Whitecaps FC in a trade for allocation money.
It almost sounds like either OBW healthy OR Ochoa fit and living up to potential
Neither are true.
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that would be the literal interpretation
Though I suspect the trade would still have happened even if Ochoa were performing as hoped. I think this is Sigi’s way of trying to light a fire under Ochoa and/or test his character.
Exactly
If Ochoa had surpassed Fucito, he would have had even less value for us. So while the “need” for this trade may have been less, the calculus would have been better. I think they still would have pulled the trigger, considering how they seem to value EJ.
by foolsgambit on Feb 23, 2012 10:51 AM PST via Android app up reply actions

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